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Author Topic: KARPEN PILE  (Read 115336 times)

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2014, 01:46:09 AM »
Some guys from around here and other forums have replicated similar cells eg ibpointless from overunityreseaerch has a youtube up but they usually have not got basic electrochemistry skills enough to know mistakes or errors that I've seen there.I haven't seen a genuinly cool and open breakdown of the museum piece anywhere but I can understand why the museum keeper is very protective over the thing after all the to-and-fro round europe trips its been on.I've myself replicated a small original using gold and platinum and it definitely works as advertised.no galvanic corrosion whatsoever correlating to the current draw.

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2014, 01:46:09 AM »

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2014, 01:47:38 AM »
I'm going to answer u now phill..

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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2014, 02:02:18 AM »
Aha..The amazing thing about a karpen is that it can be fully submerged and shaken,kicked or thrown and it still works like a bomb @phil.diffusion of gases takes place even through the electrolyte so gravity isn't an issue.anyways you can have it in drycell form with gel electrolyte so long as there's some air in there.

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2014, 02:06:58 AM »
Membranes will work ofcourse phil and yes you can roll it up in the same way as todays nicads are rolled up in the shell.


Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2014, 02:15:47 AM »
@profitis, if membrane are used, and thin film is employed, it seems that the the base of a laptop of area 1,000 cm2 (40x25) could be full covered by a Karpen pile, the requisite voltage being obtained by having 10 layers of 100um each, it would have a volume of 100CC and weigh a few hundred grams.


The question is what current would 1,000cm2 electrode area produce at say 320K (being the working temp of the computer), assuming that you have some knowledge of correlation with ambient temperature?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2014, 02:15:47 AM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2014, 02:45:24 AM »
I'm going to email you now about this one @phil.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2014, 08:03:37 AM »
Hi guys, I've been trying to replicate the Karpen pile for fun, using platinized platatinum electrodes and other inert electrodes.  Normally I plate a metal on one electrode and leave the other as platinized platinum. I've not been able to plate gold as yet but I've tried copper as well as a separate graphite electrode, both of which should not be touched by 1M sulfuric acid.   I've achieved over 1V unloaded with the Cu/Pt combo and about 50 microamps short circuit current for a few days with stirring and nitrogen purging, after which I turned it off. The Cu/Pt is of course simple galvanic corrosion of the copper.

Graphite/Pt gave a smaller voltage and, without stirring, the short circuit current died quickly.  I noticed bubbles around the graphite.

All I can deduce is that it is galvanic corrosion. Different potentials exist at each electrode, so when they touch and a current does flow, oxidation and reduction must occur at the electrodes to pass the current, except that Pt and Graphite (or gold) can't corrode, so H+ is slowly reduced at the more  negative terminal and water oxidized at the positive electrode. 
I still need to measure the individual potentials against AgCl/Ag of the electrodes,  but find it hard to believe that there is enough difference to decompose water electrolytically, so there is still a small mystery, for now.
 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 12:45:31 PM by pomodoro »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2014, 08:03:37 AM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2014, 04:51:03 PM »
What electrolyte did you use for the Pt/Cu and how big is your Pt size @pomodoro.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2014, 05:12:24 AM »
I'm using a cell with fixed electrodes about 2 inches apart. The electrodes are about 1 x 1 cm, or 2cm sq total immersed area each. Electrolyte was 1M K2SO4. I realize this setup is only appropriate for low currents but its all I have platinum wise.  The reason why I think Cu/Pt was not a good choice is because of the galvanic corrosion chart below.

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2014, 05:31:21 AM »
Copper is too reactive with certain electrolytes even if below hydogen liberation potential @pomodoro but you're on the right track.try see what current you get with Pt and Ag in NaOH solut. under pure nitrogen (jewellers 925 Ag is fine etched prior in some nitric acid to make a bit of surface area) then compare under pure H2. Your graphite/Pt under vaccuum or nitrogen is capable of a tiny bit of water electrolysis at a time in bursts because the potentials of H2 and O2 buildup to a point correlating with electrode surface coverage concentration.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2014, 05:31:21 AM »
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Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2014, 06:38:11 AM »
@pomodoro, well done for taking a practical approach.


I think the Karpen cell enigma is the best thing on this site (not counting my own work lol) and it is more likely than not something that keen replicators can work on.


The facts that I see is that there is a voltage  and small current produced by a gold / platinum device that has yet to be explained, or contradicted. 60 years of operation of a device should raise more interest than it has. Sensible debate and attempts to falsify should be the way forward, not the negativity that comes from the usual suspects.


I am of the view that if a sealed eternal supply of less than 1cc volume could be made that gives out 1.5V at 2mA, then it has immense application in the form of implanted power supplies for things like the bionic ear (cochlear), pacemakers and neural stimulators.


If you guys can produce such a thing that you can prove is a 2LOT violation, then I can provide all the funding you would need to commercialise it, even though I am currently working (as profitis knows) to commercialise a competing technology.


Phil

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2014, 01:23:27 PM »
Thanks, both of you. I'm happy put all my standard findings on here for anyone to view and utilize.  I've got access to electrochem equipment which I only use for CV and ASV but can do lots more.  However I am not an expert in electrochem, and needed to brush up.  So when I came across Karpen's invention I got some motivation to find out how it works.  Now I don't want to screw up anyone's potential to make money,  so if anything unusual does come up, I might mention it but not very specifically, but any expected findings I will mention specifically.
 
 Regarding the Pt/Ag experiment @profitis, I shall get to it as soon as I get back to work next week and report the results.


Offline mscoffman

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2014, 06:04:58 PM »
Thanks, both of you. I'm happy put all my standard findings on here for anyone to view and utilize.  I've got access to electrochem equipment which I only use for CV and ASV but can do lots more.  However I am not an expert in electrochem, and needed to brush up.  So when I came across Karpen's invention I got some motivation to find out how it works.  Now I don't want to screw up anyone's potential to make money,  so if anything unusual does come up, I might mention it but not very specifically, but any expected findings I will mention specifically.
 
 Regarding the Pt/Ag experiment @profitis, I shall get to it as soon as I get back to work next week and report the results.

This is a great experiment and I was wondering about the results of this myself.

I wouldn't waste my time on electroplating anything but plated Pt electrodes versus a plated Au electrodes. The whole purpose is to
have the Sulfuric acid electrolyte not be able to touch the surface metal so that the cell can operate indefinitely. The 18/9 Stainless
Steel might be an interesting entity though. I doubt you can electroplate Stainless steel onto anything, but stainless steel might make
an interesting bulk core material. If the are pinholes in the Pt or Au electroplate surface perhaps a Stainless Steel core would inhibit
corrosion for a while eventually stopping corrosion at those pinholes. Obviously SS is more resistive then Cu but it may be more stable.
Please be aware of the negative consequences of any of the nasty Hexavalent Chromium ions from SS.


The other question is of how thick the surface coating layer is required so that the core materials electronegativity doesn't
"play-through" and affect the electrochemistry of the surface layer. I'm thinking of the ion porosity of those thin-glass
PH probes.

Once a minimum plated on thickness is determined one could do a cell cost calculation of the precious metals per square
electrode area.

I would not be surprised at the presents of some electrolysis of water in an operating cell. Though initially these might be due
more to the presents of impurities. There are catalytic systems for recombining hydrogen and oxygen gas if required. In fact
there are those catalysts are available in some acid/lead battery caps.

I think as has been mentioned that oxygen gas is playing a role in the electrochemistry of this system.
Good luck on your experiments

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline Paul-R

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2014, 07:03:19 PM »
I doubt you can electroplate Stainless steel onto anything
No, because it is an alloy. I reckon the iron would come off on its own.

But you could probably use vacuum plating or vacuum deposition.

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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2014, 12:13:34 AM »
True @phil its high time that people started to attack and disect ol karpens battery and its principal adequetly and bring it out of its mystery category.a few already have but they haven't been paid attention enough.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2014, 12:13:34 AM »

 

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