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Author Topic: KARPEN PILE  (Read 115346 times)

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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KARPEN PILE
« on: May 23, 2014, 04:41:32 AM »
There has been incessant arguing on the quentron thread about a device that has been running for 50 years, seemingly in contradiction to 2LOT. It deserves its own thread and I hope that this is where the argument will be continued.


Here is an article explaining to the reader the background of the Karpen pile, does it work by harvesting ambient thermal energy I do not know? I am an expert on quentron and I will release info when we are ready to sell devices, not until then. So here is the article 


 KARPEN PILE ARTICLE
Now investigators of an amazing object stuck in the dusty corners of an obscure Romanian museum may have found the next best thing:

Whether a battery that has operated continuously since 1950 without a recharge can be termed perpetual may be open to debate, yet the fact remains that the remarkable device has never ceased working and doesn't look like it's about to give up the ghost anytime soon.

The battery that's been pumping out electricity faithfully for 60 years was built by Vasile Karpen.

Karpen's Pile

The director of the Dimitrie Leonida National Technical Museum in Romania, Nicolae Diaconescu, when interviewed about the battery by the Romanian newspaper, ZIUA (The Day) said, "I admit it's also hard for me to advance the idea of an overunity generator without sounding ridiculous, even if the object exists."

That the battery—called "Karpen's Pile"—exists is indisputable. 

When Karpen built the battery he claimed it would function forever. Although decades ago engineers and physicists that studied it believed it would stop working soon it never has stopped.
 Those engineers and physicists are now long dead, but the amazing "perpetual" battery keeps humming along.

Patented in 1922, most scientists that have studied it over the ensuing decades cannot fathom exactly how or why it works.

The Karpen's pile that sits in the director's office at the museum was a prototype built to Karpen's specifications. It has two series-connected electric piles that move a small galvanometric motor. That motor spins a blade that's connected to a switch. Every half rotation the blade opens and then closes the circuit during the second half of the rotation.

According to some engineers that have analyzed the ingenious device, the blade's rotation is exactly timed to allow the piles to recharge themselves and re-establish their polarity before the next rotation of the blade.

ZIUA also reported that a measurement of the current established a steady one volt output—exactly the same as when the battery was first activated in 1950.

During the interview with the newspaper, Diaconescu added that "unlike the lessons they teach you in the 7th grade physics class, the 'Karpen's Pile' has one of its electrodes made of gold, the other of platinum, and the electrolyte (the liquid that the two electrodes are immersed in), is high-purity sulfuric acid."

The museum director also asserted the battery could be made larger to produce more power.

"The French showed themselves very interested by this patrimonial object in the 70s," Diaconescu said, "and wanted to take it. Our museum has been able to keep it, though. As time passed, the fact that the battery doesn't stop producing energy is more and more clear, giving birth to the legend of a perpetual motion machine."

Recently, some leading European electrical engineers proposed that the device creates power by converting heat into mechanical energy. Diaconescu doesn't agree.

The fascination over Karpen's Pile is fed by the possible physics behind it. Some who have studied the theory Karpen created explaining the functionality of his battery believe the engineer's device violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
 Others scoff at that, but then go on to argue that it may well be an application of the physics inherent in drawing power from the theoretical "Zero Point," thus making it a Zero Point Energy device.

Whatever the cause, understanding the driving principle underlying Karpen's Pile might revolutionize both physics and the search for alternative energy sources.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

KARPEN PILE
« on: May 23, 2014, 04:41:32 AM »

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2014, 06:07:52 AM »
that WASN'T ALL THEY KNEW @sarkeizen.they KNEW the same galvanic rules that you find in the college textbook today.why debate about it for 70 years and still on?we don't know what's in the oxford bell cell.we KNOW what's in the karpen cell,since THEN.we even REPLICATED it over the years,PLAYED with it,shoved it into labs(russian,chinese,french,german)yet no consensus.why.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2014, 06:21:58 AM »
@profitis,


For the readers info can you fill in some details.


I see the Karpen pile produces 1 Volt, but can you tell us something of its power output per cm2 of electrodes? clearly if it can run the motor that cycles the device it can produce useful output, and the director of the museum states it can be scaled, so can you tell us if it has been applied to power something external to the pile?


Do you feel its output can be dramatically increased, perhaps in a manner similar to ultra caps where we can have incredible surface area in a compact form.


Apart from Gold and Platinum, what other combination of metals work and how do they differ in output?


thanks

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2014, 07:16:46 AM »
Sure phil.you're looking at roughly 0.2v/single couple so he had to stack a whole bunch together into 2 piles,the power supply alternating between them with each rev of the motor brushes.that motor would definitely require several milliampere to do its thing so it was a fair amount of power coming out there.one square cm of a single couple(platinized platinum) will give roughly 150microamp at the top of the powerburst curve.if it were a normal cell the electrodes wouldve corroded away 40 years ago at that power draw. Naturaly its power can be fairly increased nowadays with modern fuelcell platinum sponge tech but the original is just way too costly for. commercial use.apart from the 02/air based cells you want to try the hydrogen based cells eg nickel/silver or palladium/silver variety.they differ enormously in power output versus the original.between ten to hundred times power density.scary stuff @phill


Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2014, 07:27:23 AM »
@profitis, so you are saying with the right combo of metals, a stack of layers and using sponge forms, it would be possible to have a pile that outputs say 2V @ 1A in a volume of, say, 1 Litre, is this correct?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2014, 07:27:23 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2014, 07:38:31 AM »
Judging from what I've seen on smaller  samples I cannot say no phill.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2014, 02:08:44 PM »
@profitis, what is the mechanism (please state it in some detail if you can) that you believe is responsible for the production of the emf?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2014, 02:08:44 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Paul-R

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2014, 03:34:43 PM »
@profitis, what is the mechanism (please state it in some detail if you can) that you believe is responsible for the production of the emf?
Rex Research adds more. It is said to convert ambient heat into electricity, but how gold and platinum electrodes in high purity sulphuric acid does this is anyone's guess:

http://www.rexresearch.com/karpen/karpen.htm
.

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2014, 05:04:39 PM »
Gas overpotential differences phillip.the rate of forward and backward reaction of gas electrochemical equilibrium eg O2 + 4H+ +4e- >< 2H2O depends on 1) the catalyst material on which it takes place and 2)the availabilty of reactants(concentrations). The catalyst material eg smooth gold is going to promote the backward reaction rate faster than sponge platinum which promotes the forward rate faster.this is due to many factors eg work function,catalyst step mechanism,adsorbtion etc.since the rate affects potential there's a different gas potential on gold than platinum.this well known as gaseous galvanic OVERPOTENTIAL or more recently UNDERPOTENTIAL depending on wether the potential is over or under the standard gas potential.so the original karpen cell is simply an oxygen overpotential differential cell.O2 passes galvanicly from one electrode to the other until potentials equalize when switch is thrown.when switch is cut the gas that was transferred simply diffuses back again.no net change after a complete cycle thus it is able to repeat with no energy expense on our part.a kelvin breach in all its glory.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2014, 02:04:13 AM »
@profitis
Your explanation is fine so far as it goes, but I feel that it is only an overview of the real issues.


Given that the device has been running for 50 years with no sign of corrosion, and has done a lot of useful work, I have no reason to believe it (Karpen Pile) is anything other than solid proof of some mechanism, and perhaps a Demon, but clearly it has been studied by many scientists and no concensus seems to have been reached. This makes me think that you would need to drill down an extra level to have a proof of a Demon driven by ambient thermal energy.


On the same idea as a Demon, if I play the Devil's advocate I could say it is not thermal but driven by light, do you know if tests have been made to rule out such things?


As you know the issue at stake is that of proving, either by rigorous maths, or by physical experiment, that there is asymmetry. This is the issue that almost all ideas fail on, ie the thermal ratchet of one kind or another.


So you see this (Karpen) as asymmetrical, but you have not sufficiently explained how to me, as yet, even though the idea of electro-chemical equilibrium is a good start, your 02 + 4H + 4e >< 2H2O does not have an energy term (ie ambient thermal energy input). So can you expand your explanation?


Regards Phil


 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2014, 02:04:13 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2014, 02:30:37 AM »
Rex Research adds more. It is said to convert ambient heat into electricity, but how gold and platinum electrodes in high purity sulphuric acid does this is anyone's guess:

http://www.rexresearch.com/karpen/karpen.htm
.


Thanks Paul.


@profitis, the more detailed article raises a question or two that perhaps you can answer.


Is it the case that a Karpen cell of figure 1 (2 liquids) provides a continuous output?


If so is there a plot of its electrical output v ambient temperature? if not why not?

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2014, 01:24:20 PM »
Figure 1 with 2 immiscible liquids and 2 same eg platinum electrodes:amyl alcohol dissolves a different quantity of O2 gas and electrolyte than the bottom layer of water and thus sets up both a gas and ionic concentration potential difference between electrodes ie. Its a concentration cell and the nernst equasion applies there.since the concentration differences can never even out permanently it too violates kelvin rule.fig2 is the variety that I used for example in quentron thread where 2 same electrodes have different equilibrium exposure to gas resulting in a strictly permanent concentration difference.the nernst equasion applies here too.fig 3 is of the original karpen pile variety,the one we're interested in.fig 3 is explained in terms of gas overpotential differences or more easily in terms of a phenomena known as catalytic gaseous SPILLOVER.so figure 1 and 2 are simple concentration cells that have a concentration difference AT rest equilibrium.that'swhat makes them different from all other concentration cells which are not at rest equilibrium when there is a voltage present.like any cells their performance and efficiency goes up on a warm day but they work just fine in siberia too so they,l throw heat to the environment on discharge and then the environment will throw the exact same heat back into them when they rest for recharge,contrary to kelvin rule.why? Simply because they possess a voltage AT maximum rest equilibrium.fig 3 is better pictured in terms of gaseous SPILLOVER which occurs due to factors like gas concentration differences,adsorption differences,work function differences etc.the electrochemical overpotential difference explained for this type cell is simply the electrochemical manifestation of the gaseous spillover gradient force.we need to go deeper into gaseous spillover to get get to the bottom of this phil because the assymetry will become more apparent there as will the thermodynamics.


Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2014, 01:17:11 PM »
ok phil,was getting lonely here.the heart of the matter is a CONTACT POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE. This is what ties the karpen device to your device.a piece of zinc and a piece of copper shoved in electrolyte eg in the daniel galvanic cell will give a voltage exactly equivalent to the contact potential between the two metals in vaccuum.the galvanic setup is just one way to utilize this and it is spontaneously irreversable.the contact potential difference between gold and platinum under oxygen is utilizable galvanicly and totaly REVERSABLE.thus it is essentially the work function differences at play here in a totaly reversable setup.the oxygen gas and electrolyte in the karpen setup are merely a spectator piggyback molecules for carriage of electric charge through the circuit..and make it useful.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2014, 11:33:31 PM »

No the unanswered question of great importance is this one:

"On the same idea as a Demon, if I play the Devil's advocate I could say it is not thermal but driven by light, do you know if tests have been made to rule out such things?"

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 01:53:48 PM »
Got it phil.First of all,and I must say this here and now to all demonologists,ou seekers etc: get the idea of maxwell demon out of your mind.its an erronius idea that a system must possess one in order to circumvent kelvin rule eg..the system as a whole must simply have at least 2 superimposed assymetrical maximum entropy states.if its got those two states in one then its a contender to bypass kelvin rule.its the orderliness of the system as a whole that counts here. When you begin 2 experiment with karpen-type cells you will quickly notice that it has nothing to do with light,sound,vibration phil as its power-outage does absolutely not correlate with variencies of these natural resources.ie you can shove a cell in a lighted room or in complete darkness and the power changes zilch.the power densities that I have seen,even of the weaker versions have also zero correlation with noise.you can take a cell to the furthest jungle and it works exact same as if your in the middle of a city peppered with radiowaves.the power-discharge-pattern of these cells correlate only with what you'd expect from the nernst equasion or from textbook electrochemistry.it is too obvious when its in front of you.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 01:53:48 PM »

 

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