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Author Topic: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%  (Read 258330 times)

Offline MoRo

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #555 on: May 31, 2015, 04:42:22 AM »
Bellow, for the sake of the open source community, I have taken the time to use 20 consecutive frames of the original video and reassembled them into a continuously looped animated .gif image. This allows us to have the best currently available view of the overall machine in action. I have used GIMP to assemble the animation.
 
 Motion picture film was subject to image positioning inconsistencies. So, for stabilization purposes, I have ONLY and as-best-I-could, adjusted the positioning and scaling of the frames to allow for inconsistencies in the original filming.
 
 May all interested study it well and enjoy!
MagnaMoRo

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19888528/energy/GRAVPOWER.gif

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #556 on: May 31, 2015, 06:14:13 AM »
Bellow, for the sake of the open source community, I have taken the time to use 20 consecutive frames of the original video and reassembled them into a continuously looped animated .gif image. This allows us to have the best currently available view of the overall machine in action. I have used GIMP to assemble the animation.
 
 Motion picture film was subject to image positioning inconsistencies. So, for stabilization purposes, I have ONLY and as-best-I-could, adjusted the positioning and scaling of the frames to allow for inconsistencies in the original filming.
 
 May all interested study it well and enjoy!
MagnaMoRo

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19888528/energy/GRAVPOWER.gif

Nice job on the gif.

Bill


Offline FreeEnergy

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Offline mscoffman

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #558 on: January 21, 2016, 07:37:56 PM »
One thing I don't like about the above youtube link machine itself is what appears
to be a dual belt drive. Smooth belts do not do true synchronous operations.
That is, the eccentrics in this machine are only temporarily in the position shown
and over time they will drift away from one another in phase slowly changing the
machine's equations in an uncontrolled way. Perhaps storing or releasing energy?
Use shaft/gear drives or drive chain and sprocket or synchronous notched belts and
hubs for true deterministic operation.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #559 on: January 22, 2016, 08:17:56 AM »
559 posts and we are still trying to figure this machine out??

Please stop what you are doing, and do yourself a favor....
Go to the local playground, get on the spinny thing.
sit on the outer edge, facing the middle and while you spin around, lean back,
then sit up again.

you can adjust the speed, go faster or slower, like swinging a swing.
try this with 2 or 4 friends,. its the same principal this device uses.

like a substrate of specific mass aligns itself on a centrifuge tray......

forget the drive motor... start with a crank-shaft. you can turn with your hand. one shaft, one counterweight...
build a one-stroke engine, before you try to build a 4 cylinder....

have the counter weight such that you can adjust it (turn it) around the shaft to find the best angle that adds momentum to your cranking action. This will be affected by the angle of both the shaft and the weight.

The amount of weight is scalable, this determines your torque, also your required input energy.
Measure the output at various RPM while adjusting the "timing" of weight to crank.

theres a tool,. kind of "u" shaped, with a knob that spins on the handle, and usually a drill bit on the other end
or various spinning attachment... 

you can get these things spinning something serious with just tiny impulses.. like a flywheel.
when you hold them at a certain angle...
enough to drill through a piece of wood without even trying...

forceful drilling the same wood, using this tool, requires a lot of energy.....


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #559 on: January 22, 2016, 08:17:56 AM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #560 on: January 22, 2016, 01:41:32 PM »
559 posts and we are still trying to figure this machine out??

We are ???

Quote

you can adjust the speed, go faster or slower, like swinging a swing.
try this with 2 or 4 friends,. its the same principal this device uses.


Indeed ;)

I did not find the "magic" within this device as I tested for it,, I will state, however, that there are a few more interactions going on than what you have described.

Try placing the swing on the merry-go-round,, I think that covers most of what I ran across.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #561 on: January 22, 2016, 05:50:48 PM »

I did not find the "magic" within this device as I tested for it,, I will state, however, that there are a few more interactions going on than what you have described.

Try placing the swing on the merry-go-round,, I think that covers most of what I ran across.

the point is:  Experiment

It is easier to understand when you can see and feel the forces you are trying to harness.
now, consider the elliptical pattern, and the timing involved. What does this accomplish?
the angle of the shaft is changing with time, what relationship does this have with the RPM?
How does the force of gravity change over this range of angle vs the timing of rotation?
  (i.e. - where the counterweight is at each respective angle over time)
Take your time, and look at why it does what it does.....

with one counterweight, you can see that the action/reaction takes place at basically 1/2 rotation intervals.
the first half of the stroke, you crank the shaft with input torque "X"
the second half, output torque "Y" is returned, via the counterweight.
so the "timing" of a two stroke engine would be 180-degrees forward from the first shaft.
a 4-weight device would have each 90-degrees out from one another, 8 weights = 30 degrees, etc.

this gives you a combination of low-torque, high-torque, low-torque, high-torque
you alternate these like a cam, the high pushes the next low around....

its not "magic", its physics....  both the drive shaft and the crank shaft experience a change in torque.
in a one-stroke engine, the first half of the cycle the crank shaft requires a high torque input to turn the shaft.
the output shaft experiences very little translated torque.
This is because you are lifting the counterweight "upwards", it is the equivalent of e=mgh, but the math is a little more complex
due to the angle of the shaft from vertical, and that it is moving in an ellipse, not straight up and down, or in a perfect circle.
the second half of the cycle, the input shaft requires very little torque to turn the shaft, in fact the actual value can have a (-) sign.
the output shaft experiences a great torque, this is because of the force of gravity and the angle of rotation. (~=E=mgh)

the total energy of the system does not change, however, there is a great conversion of available torque.
while maintaining the same rpm.
an analogy would be the hydraulic brakes on your car. you push a little with your foot, and the pressure on the brakes is amplified many times.
Momentum conservation is why we basically get a free torque boost.
output energy does not translate to the input when measured directly. its like a worm-gear in the sense that you can't really send it backwards.
the system boundaries have to be set prior to the output shaft for an equilibrium analysis.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #561 on: January 22, 2016, 05:50:48 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #562 on: January 22, 2016, 06:15:13 PM »
i'll help a little more (sometimes I forget that not everyone else understands whats going on in my own head....)

when the counterweight is going "down" the shaft has a good angle to it, the outside of the ellipse. gravity is really swinging that weight!
This is governed by the equations of Sir Isaac Newton.

as it approaches "bottom dead center", the angle of the shaft is changing directions, and heading back towards vertical.

when the going "up", well the shaft is approaching vertical so its not really going "up" its just swinging around in a horizontal plane...
with the momentum of the counterweight x its' velocity. E = mg (what?)

So, how does it go "up" ???

ok, here you go:

the crank shaft is a gigantic LEVER. the Fulcrum being the bottom of the shaft, calculate the Archimedes leverage
 and you have the Torque Conversion Ratio of your device.

the leverage allows the crankshaft to lift the weight of the entire shaft/weights using very little input force.

the opposite occurs when gravity pulls it down.

when your test unit is set appropriately, you will feel a force pulling the driveshaft towards the angle of the ellipse.
the particular ellipse is determined by the length of the shaft and the radius of the counterweights, and the period (T).
this is governed by the equations of (believe it or not) Kepler.

So here we have a device that takes advantage of the principals of several core scientific foundations.
All in perfect order.
Not magic at all, but a work of engineering mastery.
I only showed you the major three,
but I can clearly identify at least 7 more fundamental scientific principals used in the complex device from the 1939.
This machine is equally as beautiful as a Whimshurst Machine, or a Sterling Engine.


Offline webby1

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #563 on: January 22, 2016, 06:24:16 PM »
There is also a double leverage action going on,, maybe you should play with it and get a good feel for all of what is going on within the system.

There is a feedback to the prime mover,, considering that the motor driving the system is the prime mover I am talking about and not the prime mover that the system is working with that is providing for the motions and initial torque.

With this feedback, with the pulses that get sent into the electric motor that was running this device it would be very easy to see that it was the motor that was adding all of the extra,, that is those pulses can create a condition where the motor can and will exceed its rated power,, that is both for what it consumes and what it delivers.

I think that when the gas engine was used the mystery went away and the system failed to function as described,, it did allow the engines input to be added to the main system,, but I kind of doubt that it added any more than that.

Offline webby1

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #564 on: January 22, 2016, 06:24:58 PM »
Funny I was typing and you were sending :)

ETA:

Now I read your post,,

Close on the explanations and it works better with a nice round circle.

I built and played with this system.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #564 on: January 22, 2016, 06:24:58 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #565 on: January 23, 2016, 08:17:00 AM »
There is also a double leverage action going on,, maybe you should play with it and get a good feel for all of what is going on within the system.

There is a feedback to the prime mover,, considering that the motor driving the system is the prime mover I am talking about and not the prime mover that the system is working with that is providing for the motions and initial torque.

With this feedback, with the pulses that get sent into the electric motor that was running this device it would be very easy to see that it was the motor that was adding all of the extra,, that is those pulses can create a condition where the motor can and will exceed its rated power,, that is both for what it consumes and what it delivers.

I think that when the gas engine was used the mystery went away and the system failed to function as described,, it did allow the engines input to be added to the main system,, but I kind of doubt that it added any more than that.

yes the feedback is a necessary component.
with something like a gas engine, the rotation is rigid. it is fighting the system instead of allowing the flywheel effect to push the crank around.
you can design an engine that will work like that, as some do (or did). but this was probably not the case.

the system needs this feedback, in the same way a sterling engine needs a displacer.

for a given length shaft, given set of weights, and radius of placement:
there is a certain angle, at which the effect will occur (or be most effective).
both in the downward direction, and in the upward. equal and opposite forces.
the difference between these two angles, over the time period of the cycle, defines the particular ellipse that it must travel in.
it can also be determined by the gravitational force, orbital vector, velocity, and several other factors....
but we can more simply relate it to the angle of incline because there are measurable force factors involved that can be observed in experiment.

both equations give the same answer.

you don't want a perfect circle, (there are one or two discrete dimensions where the appropriate ellipse is a perfect circle, but..)
most ellipses will not be circular, when you build this device...




Offline webby1

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #566 on: January 23, 2016, 03:00:43 PM »
Well I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

It is a very interesting device,, fun to play with. 


Offline d3x0r

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #567 on: July 10, 2017, 01:53:37 AM »

last night it struck me that my math was a little wrong... and came back to check some progress....


rohndoe had a pretty good demo...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTWwp5qUY3U


I guess gotoluc had built quite a contraption too... didn't quite get off the ground though :)

the longer the vertical shaft, the less work is used (L2a/L1*Mg) to raise the weights so they can fall, but the real work is resulting as torque on the shaft, (L2*Mg).  removing Mg as a common factor from both leaves L2 (length of the arm),  L2a (length of the arm + a little for the offset of the horizontal from the bottom), L1 (Length of the arm from the horizontal to the top).

L2 is constant so whatever length arm you have determines the base multiplier of torque. 
L1 increasing decreases the work to raise the weight.


Oh, but it's the sin of the angle only that gets applied to the torque so a longer arm has a lesser angle (unless the top rotation is increased in diamter, which is doable I suppose; limited by the angle of ... well no, I guess a gear system on two hemispheres could be made such that even 90 degrees can result in good torque transfer.  (100% gravity to torque translation)  (or really just 2 45 degree gears since it doesn't have to pivot)

I guess 1.0 translation of mass to torque would be having the drive bar horizontal (attached image)

(Attachment 2)

you don't gain RPM directly - the red (output generator/transmission) could be a gearbox to leverage it.  The lower the output load, the lower the weight will be up to a maximum.... would need to be some sort of limit.

The outside ring would have to be fixed to the center part and rotate together... (lazy suzan plate in the center? )

That design is of course less horizontal space efficient but gains vertical stacking efficiency (somewhat). 

(classic john device model, with a mostly vertical shaft, but then output torque only gains the sin(theta) torque, where theta is < 5 degrees, whereas the above is 90 degrees which sin(90) = 1.0 )
(attachment 1)


Some possible builds of a flat device....
The top is like a peice of plywood or something with a hole cut in it in the center for the gear drive, and a hole for the arm to go through, can then mount the drive arm down to that....
the second is the same sort of idea but maybe a bicycle wheel with a few spokes removed so the drive gear can get through...would have to keep the bar from moving in and out and keep it meshed against the center gear...


(attachment 3)


But this sort of arrangement simplifies the math some; should be easier to prove that the linear force required on the outside of the drive is less than the torque force you can get out for basically any mass > 1 on the mass-arm.  and based on how much greater you can then consider moving it back to a more vertical drive


But then also the load needs to be a greater force than the input in order to require any gain from the pivoting mass.  The mass would hang vertically and basically be a 1:1 transfer from the input drive to the output drive, then as the output requires more load, the weight would raise and compensate, and the input would gain at a rate of L2/L1 ( if L2(the mass arm) is shorter than L1 (the drive arm) the required force will then be that fraction of force required, and you'll start to note a greater output.


The skinner device would mostly be leveraging its inertial to drive a lathe, and probably only a very very tiny shift in the weights would be required.  Full load would be the drive shaft ahead of the mass by 90 degrees.  (even in Rohnjoe's video because there's no real load, the mass is only slightly lagged from the drive, only the slight force required to overcome the friction on the bottom would lag the weight).

---
After posting that on energetic forum; I did some searching for 'gravity torque multipler'  and or 'gravity torque amplifier' and didn't really find anything similar. (gravity torque amplifier did find gotoluc's stuff and a few others skinner related)

And sorry for wide images; they're just slightly too wide though

Offline d3x0r

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #568 on: July 10, 2017, 05:15:23 AM »

nevermind; I guess in the flat orientation the force has to be applied on the drive side.


 

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