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Author Topic: Lasersaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?  (Read 196208 times)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2014, 10:30:10 PM »
I made a Joule Ringer with my big coil and a BC547C transistor which needs very little power (4.4 Volt at 2 mA --> ~0.01 Watt) to light up a 220V 0.7W LED lamp fairly bright. I could not find any good use for the third winding, so it is not connected to anything.

The LED lamp can be connected to the positive rail as indicated in the attached drawing, but one can as well connect it to the negative rail. I did not see any difference in power consumption or LED lamp brightness. (I guess that the BC547C should not be driven with 12 Volt. The aim is a 1 to 1.5 Volt circuit, but this will need thinner wire and more turns for the windings eventually.)

This is nothing new, just some low power Joule Ringer. But next week I will dismantle this coil and wind it again with the same wire and the same number of turns but with two copper strips as I indicated in my post above http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg401739/#msg401739

This should then show whether the copper strips change anything in an interesting way. I will lead out a wire from each of the two copper strips to be able to connect them in several ways to the windings. The first copper strip will be on the core, below the first winding (which is driven by the transistor). The second copper strip will be over the second winding (which drives the LED lamp and is connected to the base of the transistor).

I will omit the third winding at first (it can be added later, but might not fit on the core together with the copper strips, needs thinner wire).

If the copper strips are good for something they should help in any oscillator circuit. But this unfounded guess work might be wrong.

Greetings, Conrad

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Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2014, 05:31:59 AM »
Hi conrad, thanks for sharing your tests.
I tried your latest circuit, which is similar to joule ringer it seems, though could not get it to oscillate with the led bulb i have and also tried christmas led string.
Tried 2n3055 and tip42.
Maybe not enough turns or inductance on my higher turn coil or the ferrite core/coil in general.
I do notice one thing, if i go above 4 volts or so with the other setup, using the third winding to get it to oscillate, it does not make the bulb any brighter.
At that .01 watt input, when you say fairly bright, how bright is that compare to mains powered do you think?
Look forward to your copper strip tests.
peace love light
 :)


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2014, 07:48:39 PM »
I tried your latest circuit, which is similar to joule ringer it seems, though could not get it to oscillate with the led bulb i have and also tried christmas led string.   Tried 2n3055 and tip42.
Maybe not enough turns or inductance on my higher turn coil or the ferrite core/coil in general.

I could always make a Joule Ringer ring by putting a 10K to 100K resistor between the base of the transistor and positive rail.

One can not put a LED (or a series of LEDs) instead of the "LED lamp" or CFL in a Joule Ringer, because the LED would block the positive half of the sine wave from the coil reaching the base of the transistor (to switch it).

Quote
I do notice one thing, if i go above 4 volts or so with the other setup, using the third winding to get it to oscillate, it does not make the bulb any brighter.

I found that a Joule Ringer has a rather narrow range of useful supply Voltage. The necessary supply Voltage depends of course on the windings and should not vary by more than a few Volts. In principle the Joule Ringer will work within a wide supply Voltage range, but only a small range makes it work in an optimal and efficient way. The Joule Ringer I showed in my last post works best between 3.5 and 6 Volt. More than 6 Volt works but the LED lamp does not become much brighter (although the power draw becomes substantially higher), as you noticed as well.

Quote
At that .01 watt input, when you say fairly bright, how bright is that compare to mains powered do you think?
Look forward to your copper strip tests.

The brightness of the LED lamp or CFL in a Joule Ringer is overestimated by many experimenters. If it uses less than nominal Wattage the brightness is of course less than nominal. In the 0.01 Watt range my LED lamp shines only with ~10% of the nominal brightness or even less. At nominal brightness (with 0.7 Watt at 220V mains) the LEDs in my LED lamp a piercingly bright.

At 6 V and 25 mA (~0.15 Watt) my LED lamp still does not have nominal brightness, maybe 30%.

Some people did measurements with a lumen-meter and were surprised how little the light output really was.

I like the term "nicely bright", which means that one has the impression that the lamp is "visibly on" in daylight.

But the dimmer light may still be useful as an emergency light, as a flash light or as a night light which many children like to have in the bed room. The eye is very sensitive to pick up dim light (which then looks much brighter than it is objectively).

But be careful, many Joule Ringers make a piercing sound (5 KHz to 20 KHz) which children (and also pets) hear very well. One can avoid the sound by gluing everything on the coil together with a thick layer of glue.

I prefer air core coils (which need 10 times more windings and are rather big), but the circuit then swings at around 80 KHz which nobody hears.

I wonder what copper strips would do on an air core coil? One more test to do.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2014, 11:30:44 PM »
Hi conrad, thanks for the information.
I took a gutted 6 watt cree led bulb and with proper polarity,
it worked fine with the joule ringer type circuit you showed.
Funny you should mention air coil, as that is what I'm building right now,
waiting for large coil bobbin glue to dry.
Used large cardboard tape roll, 3" diameter and i cut the height
down to 1.5" and have some 1/4" thick, high density fiberboard
 disks i had cut from another project for the end pieces.
It will be using the brooks coil ratios.
Going to wind 24awg. bifilar magnet wire and try and get the coil
 diameter as close to 6" diameter as possible or when i run out of magnet wire. ;D
After seeing how well tom ferkos is powering non-modified 7 watt led bulbs,
with his satellite air coil motor, though he stops the motor and it self
oscillates as i have seen myself.
Will try standard joule thief and his circuit, which looks like school girl
motor circuit and try some other circuits to see which works best.
He can power six, 7 watt led bulbs to very good brightness on
22 watts, .94 amps-24 volt input.
Though for now, i'm only looking to power one 6 watt led bulb,
so we will see how it works.
Here is a circuit he posted.

peace love light
 :)


Offline NickZ

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2014, 11:30:59 PM »
  I've had no problems lighting led, CFL, or incandescent bulb using the Joule Ringer circuit. A single transistor, ferrite core, and 12v battery as the power source. The problem has been with the overheating of the transistor, as well as the ringing noise. But, if the voltage is only about 10 volts, the transistor heating is minimal, and the ringing noise can be quieted down by the use of magnetite magnets.
  Here are a few pics of some of my Joule Ringer circuits:

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2014, 11:30:59 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2014, 01:41:41 AM »
I made a Joule Ringer with my big coil and a BC547C transistor which needs very little power (4.4 Volt at 2 mA --> ~0.01 Watt) to light up a 220V 0.7W LED lamp fairly bright. I could not find any good use for the third winding, so it is not connected to anything.

The LED lamp can be connected to the positive rail as indicated in the attached drawing, but one can as well connect it to the negative rail. I did not see any difference in power consumption or LED lamp brightness. (I guess that the BC547C should not be driven with 12 Volt. The aim is a 1 to 1.5 Volt circuit, but this will need thinner wire and more turns for the windings eventually.)

This is nothing new, just some low power Joule Ringer. But next week I will dismantle this coil and wind it again with the same wire and the same number of turns but with two copper strips as I indicated in my post above http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg401739/#msg401739

This should then show whether the copper strips change anything in an interesting way. I will lead out a wire from each of the two copper strips to be able to connect them in several ways to the windings. The first copper strip will be on the core, below the first winding (which is driven by the transistor). The second copper strip will be over the second winding (which drives the LED lamp and is connected to the base of the transistor).

I will omit the third winding at first (it can be added later, but might not fit on the core together with the copper strips, needs thinner wire).

If the copper strips are good for something they should help in any oscillator circuit. But this unfounded guess work might be wrong.

Greetings, Conrad
I am surprised that you are not burning out the transistor due to excessive reverse Vbe.  I would recommend either a series Schottky diode to the transistor base and a light pull down from the base to emitter of say 100K or so, or a series current limiting resistor and a signal diode like a 1N4148 with the cathode on the base and anode on the emitter.  The shunt configuration should allow a lower starting voltage.

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2014, 06:10:19 AM »
Hi folks, Hi nickz, nice to see you again, hope your devices are lighting up your life. 8)
Since I've never built an air coil as big as this one will be when it's done, that's one of the reasons I'm trying it.
Just started winding, will take me a few days, since the wire is on rectangular wood formers, so slow going.
Here is a pic so far of progress and it is very close to the ideal brooks coil ratio.

peace love light
 ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2014, 06:10:19 AM »
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Offline d3x0r

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2014, 12:26:48 PM »

Offline ramset

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2014, 01:48:49 PM »
Also Slider has an ongoing replication/modification
here [19 minute run time so far]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g5_x1TQsPA&list=UUFqtTvDJtJRQFdRxwiCAWXw

thx
Chet

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2014, 02:43:24 PM »
I am surprised that you are not burning out the transistor due to excessive reverse Vbe.  I would recommend either a series Schottky diode to the transistor base and a light pull down from the base to emitter of say 100K or so, or a series current limiting resistor and a signal diode like a 1N4148 with the cathode on the base and anode on the emitter.  The shunt configuration should allow a lower starting voltage.

@MarkE:

In this circuit http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg401872/#msg401872 (which you seem to refer to) there is a LED with the cathode on the base and anode on the emitter limiting the reverse Vbe to -2 Volt. A 1N4148, as you suggest, would be better (Vbe of -0.7 V).

With a 100K resistor in front of the base of the transistor and a 1N4148 to limit Vbe (see the attached circuit and photo, I think you called it the "shunt configuration") I can now run the circuit with 1.2 to 1.5 V from a AAA battery. But the power draw is considerable, 20 to 30 mA at 1.2 to 1.5 V. The LED lamp gives useful light (although far from nominal brightness).

Higher Voltages cause even more power draw like 70 mA at 6 Volt. But this could be a nice flash light circuit with a single AAA battery.

Thank you for the suggestions.

I am waiting for the circuit diagram of Lasersaber's latest circuit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE before dismantling the coil (in order to add copper strips), I want to do some tests too (without copper strips).

I think that Lasersaber's 2N1304 Germanium NPN transistor can switch with a very low base current, but the BC547C should have similar capabilities. But I did not understand from his video how he connected everything, therefore I have to wait for his circuit diagram. I am using a different coil core than he does, but that should make it interesting. Is it the core or is it the copper strips, which allows for such a low power consumption.   

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2014, 02:43:24 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2014, 04:00:12 PM »
@MarkE:

In this circuit http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasesaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg401872/#msg401872 (which you seem to refer to) there is a LED with the cathode on the base and anode on the emitter limiting the reverse Vbe to -2 Volt. A 1N4148, as you suggest, would be better (Vbe of -0.7 V).
Skywatcher's circuit had nothing.  I see that you suggested an LED which should work provided it is fast enough.
Quote

With a 100K resistor in front of the base of the transistor and a 1N4148 to limit Vbe (see the attached circuit and photo, I think you called it the "shunt configuration") I can now run the circuit with 1.2 to 1.5 V from a AAA battery. But the power draw is considerable, 20 to 30 mA at 1.2 to 1.5 V. The LED lamp gives useful light (although far from nominal brightness).
100K seems a lot.  You could try simulations or trial and error to get that down.  I would think that if the circuit was working well before that something more like 5K or 10K would be adequate.  Alternatively a small Schottky diode with an appropriate voltage rating in series would do.
Quote

Higher Voltages cause even more power draw like 70 mA at 6 Volt. But this could be a nice flash light circuit with a single AAA battery.
There are some really good LED drivers out there that will run from a single AA cell as well.  Pair one of those with a modern 120L/W + LED and you can have a very nice torch.
Quote

Thank you for the suggestions.

I am waiting for the circuit diagram of Lasersaber's latest circuit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE before dismantling the coil (in order to add copper strips), I want to do some tests too (without copper strips).
I think only the outermost copper is helpful.
Quote

I think that Lasersaber's 2N1304 Germanium NPN transistor can switch with a very low base current, but the BC547C should have similar capabilities. But I did not understand from his video how he connected everything, therefore I have to wait for his circuit diagram. I am using a different coil core than he does, but that should make it interesting. Is it the core or is it the copper strips, which allows for such a low power consumption.
I think that it is the good quality ferrite core and a good match to the transistor.
Quote

Greetings, Conrad
I don't have a model handy for the 2N1304.  I do for the BC547, but show that as a Si transistor.

Offline tturner

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2014, 09:50:27 PM »
hey guys im a newbie but want to make this devise. i just watched lasersaber latest video of when he just touches the 9v and it runs forever. i would like to replicate that but cant find schematics. also the coil is going to be trouble so any help would be great. thanks


Offline d3x0r

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2014, 09:56:04 PM »
hey guys im a newbie but want to make this devise. i just watched lasersaber latest video of when he just touches the 9v and it runs forever. i would like to replicate that but cant find schematics. also the coil is going to be trouble so any help would be great. thanks
wait a day or so; it's the weekend, and time for family...
not forever but 10 minutes; slider just demonstrated 19 minutes...
one would think that if you got LEDs paired with a solar cell that you could recoup more...

but ya; say 100 watt seconds(600 seconds, 0.16W)  from 0.45 watt seconds (100ms touch 9 v, 1A )


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2014, 03:33:03 PM »
Based on LaserSaber's "Super Joule Ringer 3.0" http://laserhacker.com/?p=59 and his video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE , I could make some progress:

See the attached circuit diagram and the photo, the circuit has a 4700 µF electrolytic capacitor.

Run times with the 4700 µF cap:

With 12 V start up the LED shines well about 1 min 30 sec and last till 2 minutes (rather dim at the end).

With 9 V start up the LED shines well about 1 minute and lasts till 1 min 30 sec (rather dim at the end).

With 1.5 V start up the LED shines dimly about 10 seconds.


Measured power consumption (with a digital multimeter, not very accurate):

0.7 mA at 12 V
0.5 mA at 9 V
0.3 mA at 2 V


I used a different core than LaserSaber, a different transistor and no copper strips on the core. If one turns around the LED it is brighter but run time goes down (power consumption goes up). The circuit does not work without the 1N4148 diode.

The circuit works by connecting the cathode of the LED to the base of the transistor (as shown in circuit diagram), but also if the LED's cathode is connected to the positive or negative rail. If the cathode of the LED is connected to the base of the transistor the on time of the transistor is the shortest, hence power consumption is lowest.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: Once I see LaserSaber's latest circuit I will start to modify my coil by adding copper strips.


Offline alejandroguille

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Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2014, 04:17:37 PM »
so?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lasesaber strikes again. A joule thief king ?
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2014, 04:17:37 PM »

 

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