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Discussion board help and admin topics => Half Baked Ideas => Topic started by: dieter on April 15, 2014, 09:27:24 PM
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I want to show you an idea that works great in theory, but obviously not in real life..,
Imagine a EI core, one coil on each of the 3 legs. The middle coil be the primary. The left coil has a LED as a load, the right coil has no load at all. There is 12V 59Hz in the primary. I get eg. 2 volts and 7 mA trough the LED. Now I short circuit the right coil. Suddently there are 54 mA and 2.6V flowing trough the LED.
This means, when the right coil was unloaded, 80% of the flux went trough it because the prim. has seen the easier path, because on the left side the LED load reduced the permeability. After short circuiting the right coil, suddently the left side became the side of the easier path, resulting in most of the flux flowing trough the left coil, causing induction and increasing the current for the LED like 7x.
Based on this observation I concluded that, I may replace the primary by a Permanent magnet and add an alternating switch to the secondaries: this switch will connect a load repeatedly and alternating to the right coil and to the left coil, always leaving the unconnected coil unloaded.
This alternating state of (passive) load connection should now be capable of forcing the flux path of the magnet to the currently unloaded coil and hence cause an ongoing flux path switching. The induced current may be high, depending on magnet, core, coil etc., but has absolutely no relation whatsoever to the connection switcher.
That's about it, my nice idea, too bad it just didn't work. Can somebody explain me why???.
Thanks
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Permanant magnet is a force, if you want energy you must move this force.
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You may have not understood what I wrote, nor magnetic paths in general, no offence.
Regards
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core saturation ?
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Thank you forest,
As indicated, I already made a quick test, As I had no core that would work with two coils and a PM, i decided to use the 3 coil transformer and put a DC current on the middle coil, simulating a permanent magnet PM. I also added a 4700 uF cap to the supply to smooth any remaining ripples of the already smoothed , rectified dc.
I used a commutator kind of thing to switch the connections, using brushes and a modified computer fan. This fan had its own wall supply.
I used several resistors to test various saturations caused by the "permanent magnet", output was not affected, a half a volt at less than 1 microamp. I was getting the same without any current in the middle coil ... 8) , although only when the commutator was in action.
But I was thinking a little more about it. I yet still see no reason why it cannot work, but there may be a reason why it didn't start:
The permeability of a core side will be reduced only when a current flows in that side's coil. But such a current will flow only when there is a change in the magnetic field. Which is not happening because , as already stated, there is no current flow...
Long story short: if this works, it must be kickstarted somehow.
Regards
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Hi.. dieter
Because to generate electricity we need coil or flux/magnet in motion relative to each other, IMO.
if you have scope, can you post screen shot before and after shorting coil,i would like to see the voltage.
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Hi.. dieter
Because to generate electricity we need coil or flux/magnet in motion relative to each other, IMO.
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Marsing
Thanks for your feedback. I don't agree: you described only one method out of several. The only thing that matters is, if there is change in the magnetic field.
When you connect the north pole of one magnet with a steel rod, and on the other end of the rod with a 2nd magnets south pole, then the two magnets build a path. The fieldline distribution in the steel rod is concentrated, and very diffrent compared to when there is only one magnet, or when both magnets face with like poles to the steel bar.
In a core that offers to a magnet two identical ways to close the flux path loop, the flux will be distributed equally over both ways. Now you can alter the permeability (or magnetical conductivity) of one way to force the flux to the other way. This is path switching. It will induce current, without to move the coil or the magnet. There are several methods to do that, and to find a smart method is the challenge in it.
Certainly it would be extremly elegant to simply use the load for that. And right now I still see no reason why this should not work, once kickstarted.
Regards
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Have you ever read about Motionless Electromagnetic Generator (MEG) ?
http://www.cheniere.org/megstatus.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm
i think that's your goal,
And...... you have no scope? right.
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Yes, the MEG works similar. But it would have been cooler with no input.
Also, in a MEG like setup (several very similar patents exist, eg. Flynn), it is important to use the right amplitude, duration and waveform for the dwitcher coil.
Basicly, it should be possible to start the device with normal dissipation and then reduce these pulses to short kicks that will act as the lead of the current draw duration in a halfwave. Requires a lot of electronics tho.
I think the reason why these devices can work is: when you pulse the switcher coil, the magnetical field will be caused immediately, no matter how short the pulse is. This flux switching will introduce a collapsing field that causes a current and as soon as you let this current flow in the secondary, it maintains the reduced permeability, that was caused initiallly by the switcher coil pulse.
Regards
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I would also like to add:
An LC tank circuit or any other circuit with little voltage and current, when tuned to resonance in that it causes a short intensive spike, maybe only a few percent duty in a 60hz cycle, should be enough to switch a path or even reverse a field completely.
The total dissipation should then be very low.
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Interesting thing, a circuit with only a cap and a DC motor, don't care about the quantity of farads of the cap when you turn the motor with your hand or your finger it is always as easy to turn than if you where turning the motor with no load.
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To the condition that the cap is in serie.
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What happens when you add a load in series, eg. a LED ?
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Mh, the question is more:
What happens when you reduce the totale resistance of the circuit (resistance of the circuit of the motor include)?
Uind=w*N*S*B sin w
w=2*Pi*F
If the number of turns of a DC motor is the same, it is the same inductive voltage.
I=V/Rtot
Rtot=totale resistance of the circuit
P=I²*Rtot=V*I
Uind=V(?)
The same DC motor and circuit in a lower temperature, the motor in exactely the same speed with a cap in serie, is the cap will be more charged with the same time than the ambiant temperature?
Vind is the same with the same turns with the same B but if the temperature shut down and the magnet is for exemple a neodym, I think it will be a little more B because of the reversibility of this type of magnet.