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Author Topic: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger  (Read 20185 times)

Offline Shanti

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2014, 08:58:50 AM »
Thanks for the articles, didn't know these yet.
Seems like the fraud was quite prominent, that would explain, why von Unruh later needed another frontman to continue, as his previous fraud was too public.

BTW: About the Norrby patent.
If you read the french version, it gets very clear for what this patent was intended. At that time, you needed High voltages for radio transmitters. But you only had basically batteries for powering them.
But how to make High voltages from such low voltages? Well you either took a dc-motor/ac-generator combination and then a normal transformer, or you took a relais which switched the DC, so that it could be transformed.
Both versions were not so good, as both had quite some physical wear. The motor on the brushes, and the relais on the contacts

So Norrby came up with an idea, how to get HV out of LV DC batteries. And the idea was to use transductors as switching elements.
So no more mechanical loss was present. But as it seemed this idea didn't had any success.
And his very special way, of arrangement of his flat coils and plates is just another (surely strange) means, to get higher voltages with this oscillator.
As it seems he uses a magnetic means to change the distance of his plate/coil capacitors to get higher voltages, and the transductors to get the oscillations.
Maybe there was already a patent for the more forward way of transforming to HV, or maybe he thought that this solution would be better...who knows...

And the english translation has, as mentioned, the error, that it states, that the device makes more power on the output, instead of the correct french version, which says, more voltage...

And the Magnetstromapperat is also exactly that. It uses transductors with using the copper coils on the iron themselves at the same time as galvanic elements for powering the circuit.

In the Stromerzeuger he adjusted the working point of the transductors with the help of an additional winding and a battery powering it (like it is usually done), and in the Magnetstromapperat he modified the distance between the magnets to get to the correct working point.

This is all, as it has been described, by the successful replicator "Dodes" in the hcrs-forum. The link I gave above...

Edit: IMHO it is clear, why he constructed the Magnetstromapperat, as nobody anymore believed him, the Stromerzeuger would be OU, as it needed the batteries.
So he probably thought he has to make a device without any (visible) batteries to get new investors.
So he got rid of the battery for the adjusting circuit by the mechanical adjustable magnets and he got rid of the primary batteries, by making the coil themselves in a way, that they are batteries.
Sure these "batteries" deliver only a very small amount of power, but it was probably enough to get other investors interested  in investing for a bigger one...

So it seems to me, that von Unruh very well knew, how the circuit is really working, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to come up with such another circuit...still based on the same principle.
It just seems to me Coler didn't get it. But he was also no electrical engineer, as he was engineering planes.
So it seems somewhen after the building of the Magnetstromapperat von Unruh died. And Coler wasn't able to replicate any working Stromerzeuger anymore, as he didn't know its secret.
And if you do not know how it works, a replication is very difficult...
The same with the Magnetstromapperat: If you do not know, that the galvanic action at the coils is the important key ingredient, then your replication will fail.
So anybody wiring his enammelled wire around the core, will automatically fail...

Edit2:
And as "Dodes" in the hrcs forum already pointed out:
Coler himself probably never realized that the coils were galvanic elements, for the way they were made, they are shorted at the output (by connection to the core). It is used as a current source.

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Offline Shanti

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2014, 10:45:17 AM »
Lol still reading in the energiederzukunft forum?

BTW: I don't know if you speak german. But if not and if you have some problems understanding certain (short) passages you can ask me here, and I will translate them...


Offline vasik041

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2014, 11:01:21 AM »
I have met the author of this article at his laboratory in Kolberg.  He has two replications (built by other people) of the Coler Magnetstromapparat at his disposal.

Hi Smudge,

so have you actually seen working Coler device yourself ?

Regards,
Vasik

Offline Shanti

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2014, 11:10:11 AM »
Quote
so have you actually seen working Coler device yourself ?

BTW: As said. In the link I've given is a complete description how to make a working Magnetstromapperat yourself. If you are interested, for the fun of it...
As said, the most important thing for a successful replication is using either a non insulated copper wire and a paper insulation to the core or a fabric insulated copper wire.


Offline vasik041

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2014, 11:28:23 AM »
Hi Shanti,

autotranslation helps but only a little.

So at the end, was it just a magnetic amplifier powered by galvanic elements ?

Thanks.

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2014, 11:28:23 AM »
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Offline Shanti

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2014, 12:15:34 PM »
OK, I will shortly translate the the descriptional part of the post from user "Dodes" in the hcrs forum (http://forum.hcrs.at/viewtopic.php?p=16852&sid=f6dae7138b79dda4b176d3f61d5c226e#16852)

Quote
A short experiment:

1) Take an Iron-core/Steel-Core or ... length 100mm /15mm dia
Polish it nicely and make sure it is free from any fat.

2) Make 2-3 layer of paper 60-80g/m'2 around the core and fix it with a bit of glue
   Do not use any adhesive tape!!!

3) As you cannot get anymore copper wire with a fabric insulation, use an uninsulated copper wire and wire it together with a wool thread over the paper insulation.
    You can remove the wool thread now.
    You now haw a secondary coil made of uninsulated copper wire!

4) Now let the iron core rest for 24 hours and then measure with a high impedance voltmeter the voltage between the core and the coil!
   [-> You have made a battery]
 
5) Now do the same a second time, but this time reverse the orientation of the winding (if you did cw, you now do ccw, or vice versa)
 
6) Now connect the coils on the outside electically with the core.
Leave the other coil connection open.

7) If you now measure the voltage between coil and core, it is 0V.
   [it now looks to the layman, as if there's no battery effect anymore present...]

8 ) Now connect both coils electrically with each other, and connect the two open coil connections over a small capacitance.
The capacitance should be chosen in a size, so that the total circuit will have a series resonance frequency of about 120KHz.

9) Now use either an external electromagnetic or a permanent magnetic field to influence the cores to find the right working point for the cores to work as transductors.

10) Check the DC voltage on the capacity. If it isn't 0V, then the DC voltage is still asymmetric and the gain distorted.
 
It's a bit problematic to tune in, but if the circuit starts to swing, the Heureka-Effect is big  ;D

 An explanation behind the basic theory of transductors can be found here:
 
  Magnetic Amplifier - another lost technology U.S. Navy 1951 (.pdf-Link)
 
Usually the bias of magnetic amplifiers is made by a DC-coil, but you can also do it with a field from a permanent magnet, where you just have to adjust the distance...
 
The power input is over the core circuit and presents just one winding.
The modulated secondary current is created in the outer secondary coil, which is interconnected in pahse with the core circuit.
Thats why we now have here an:
Magnetic push-pull amplifier!!!

On every oscillation back and forth of the current, the amplitude gets amplified a little bit. I guess the gain is here about 1.1 to 1.3.
Due to the losses in the core etc, the ampltiude rises quite slowly.
Similar to the acoustic coupling (microphone in front of loudspeaker): If you adjust the output volume accordingly, then there also the output just rises slowly, but in the end produces a strong noise...

BTW: Be aware that in Coler's time, paper was quite acidic. This helps a lot in getting more power out of your coil battery. You can also just take a bit of lemon juice and drop it one the coils to improve the power output...


Offline vasik041

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2014, 12:29:00 PM »
Shanti,

Thanks a lot for translation!

I just wondering what is significance of 120khz frequency ?  Any idea ?


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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2014, 12:29:00 PM »
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Offline Shanti

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2014, 01:48:07 PM »
It's quite a time ago...and I'm not Dodes from hcrs...
But AFAIR, it was due to the following reasons (no claim of correctness):

1) The higher the frequency the better the gain, but also the losses in the core. So there's kind of optimal range for the best gain.
2) If you have a mechanical vibration in the core (due to magnetostriction), it can help you get a better gain. As due to the mechanical vibrations, the inner resistance of the galvanic coil/core element is changing. And if it does this in phase with the amplification itself, it will increase the gain.

If the 2nd point is really adding some substantial gain, the you would probably best check to get the best frequency with a scope and make the circuit adjustabel, either with an adjustable cap or inductance.


Offline Smudge

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2014, 05:36:23 PM »
Just got back from a short break without internet access.  The replications I saw at Thorsten's laboratory did not actually yield any working evidence, they were simply attempted replications built by different people.

Thanks Shanti for all that additional information.  The fact that UnRuh/Coler used silk insulated wire over paper insulation in their M machine not only leads to the galvanic explanation, but also might imply that it used the magnetoelectric effect where an electric field can control magnetization.  A simple two-plate capacitor, where one plate is a magnetized ferromagnetic conductor while the other plate is a non-magnetic conductor (like Cu), when electrically energized will exhibit on the ferromagnetic plate either an excess or a deficit of spin-polarized electrons.  That equates to a small change of overall magnetization on that plate, and that is a magnetoelectric effect.  Obviously the use of high permittivity dielectric will increase the surface charge for a given voltage.  Additionally if the dielectric is ferroelectric there is an increased effect due to some exchange coupling.  I don't know whether anyone has come up with this as a possible explanation for the reported effects, but if it is true then modern replications with enamel insulation will not work.  And cellulose, which is a major constituent of paper, is ferroelectric.

It may also be noted that there is another known effect, the Magneto-Coulomb Effect, whereby a ferromagnet exposed to an externally applied magnetic field will attempt to shed or attract electrons, effectively its surface work function changes value.  So there are more possibilities than the galvanic one, and it is just possible that all three effects play their part.

As regards the original Norrby patent being a solid-state means for obtaining high DC voltage from batteries, that makes sense and I can quite believe that to be true.  However I do note that Unruh/Coler used much larger electromagnets than those shown in the Norrby patent.  And whereas Norrby had all his electromagnets with their axes vertical, Unruh/Coler did not use the same configuration, as indicated by the Reichskanzlei sketch that Shanti provided where they are shown in zig-zag fashion.  The UK archive material also mentions zig zag.  So IMO it is possible that Unruh discovered something interesting about the S machine.  I am swayed by the reports of Professors Kloss, Franke and Schumann where they did not measure voltage gain, indeed the output voltage was very similar to the input voltage.  But they did measure power gain.  And in particular the photometric experiment, where illumination from bulbs lit via the S machine and lit directly from a battery were compared.  The electrical measurements were there all DC, so not much room for error.  And these guys were not idiots, they would have performed these measurements carefully.  So I reach the conclusions that either the S machine did exhibit power gain or the reports were pure fabrication.  Maybe I'll revise my opinion when I have read all the Reichskanzlei material.

It is clear to me that Unruh was the brains and Coler was simply his front man.  Indeed I have a copy of a letter from the Norwegian archives which states that Coler was Unruh's assistant.  So after Unruh's death Coler was out of his depth and simply muddled along.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2014, 05:56:02 PM »

Quoting: The fact that UnRuh/Coler used silk insulated wire over paper insulation in their M machine not only leads to the galvanic explanation, but also might imply that it used the magnetoelectric effect where an electric field can control magnetization.  A simple two-plate capacitor, where one plate is a magnetized ferromagnetic conductor while the other plate is a non-magnetic conductor (like Cu), when electrically energized will exhibit on the ferromagnetic plate either an excess or a deficit of spin-polarized electrons.  That equates to a small change of overall magnetization on that plate, and that is a magnetoelectric effect.  Obviously the use of high permittivity dielectric will increase the surface charge for a given voltage.  Additionally if the dielectric is ferroelectric there is an increased effect due to some exchange coupling.  I don't know whether anyone has come up with this as a possible explanation for the reported effects, but if it is true then modern replications with enamel insulation will not work.  And cellulose, which is a major constituent of paper, is ferroelectric.


Thomas Townsend Brown "empire clothes"
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19281115&CC=GB&NR=300311A&KC=A

cellulose~vinyl and today solution/alternatively: graphene


                                                   also valid
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=14&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19910228&CC=DD&NR=287597A5&KC=A5
go to "original document" on the left side and translate it (german description)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2014, 05:56:02 PM »
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Offline Shanti

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2014, 07:00:09 PM »
@Smudge:
Sorry don't want to be rude, but postulating such ideas, way off from experimental state sure is possible, but does IMHO not make too much sense.
IMHO you possibly drifted off way too much into the theoretical speculation world...

So my advise would be, just make ONE simple experiment, based on your ideas, which should yield anything special, for the verification of your ideas...

IMHO you try too hard to see any evidence in known allegedly FE-devices verifying your ideas. Probably you are tinkering about this idea already since a long time, accepting all not so common known effects, and integrating them into your theory to give yourself credibility. I meant this in relation to yourself.
If you do this long enough, you will become quite convinced, that your theory is true.
But did you ever do the exact math? Did you ever do an experiment verifying your theory?
I would bet my left foot, that the asnwer will be "No".
If it isn't then please link you experimental or calculation data, as I would be very interested.

As said, read the thread in the german forum, as he has dug out much more, than jus the Reichskanzeli files, and you will very likely also come to the conclusion, that the Stromerzeuger was never OU. Even more, that it seems they deliberately made the device in a way as to trick people, by letting them measure wrong values.

Otherwise stated: If you can clearly make a copy of a Magnetstromapperat, and it works, as described by Coler, and if your setup clearly runs purely on a galvanic effect, what are the odds, that it actually runs completely different?
I know, sometimes it is hard to accept the truth, especially if it violates or does not contribute one's own truth...
But as said, in science, there's occam's razor: The simplest explanation, is most possibly the correct one. And the simplest explanation explaining the devices is a purely conventional one.
So IMHO making a tie from the Coler apparatus here to some fancy theory is IMHO quite a bit far fetched...
As said, IMHO it would make more sense to discuss this theory on its own and make experiments verifying this theory.

BTW: About the zig-zag formation.
IMHO is is quite obvious why they made it that way. You need a DC current from one battery to adjust the bias point of the transductors. This is wasted energy.
So by arranging them in zig zag and also using permanent magnetic material they could increase the base field in these cores, so that they did not need anymore that much power from the battery to get to the bias point.
That's what I would do too, so that the power from the battery is then really just needed for a tiny adjustment of the bias point.  As such an electrical adjustment is way easier than a mechanical adjustment (like in the Magnetstromapperat).

Please do not take this as any personal war/offense against you.
It is just, that I, and also a friend of mine, also once fell into such a theoretical hole. And I know, how difficult it is to get out of it again, as the effects of cognitive dissonance can be quite strong.

Offline Smudge

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2014, 10:32:59 AM »
Shanti,

You must admit that the Magnetstromapparat and the Stromerzeuger are very different beasts.  You seem to be of the opinion that the M device is fully explained by the galvanic effect and the S device was definitely a scam.  While I can agree with you in regard to the M device I am not convinced about the S.  You said previously that files from the Reichskanlei show that in all demonstrations people were not allowed to put their own meters in the circuit.  That is at odds with the reports from Kloss and Schumann where they obtained meters from other sources, even going so far as to using different types of meter (e.g. hot-wire as against moving-coil) in order to differentiate between AC and DC effects.  So far there has been no evidence that those reports were fabricated, so on the basis that those tests really did happen and they got the OU results quoted I am prepared to believe that the S device might be OU.  As Wanninger (the guy on the energiederzukunft.org forum who has done most of the research there and has built a non-working replication of the Norrby device) says, "I want to believe in it".

You also seem to think that both devices act as "transductors" which I take to mean magnetic amplifiers or saturable reactors.  I think this is pure speculation since from my knowledge of such devices they require closed magnetic paths without any air gaps.  The sharp knee you see on the BH curve for square loop material does not occur when you plot the Flux v current curve if there is an air gap present, and certainly won't occur with coils wound onto rod cores.  Also there is no connection between the saturation effects and any current flowing through the cores.  So IMO the S device is still a mystery, and I think all possible avenues should be explored.  For this reason I am placing my thoughts here on this forum in the hope that they might prompt someone into doing more research.  I agree that it requires simple experiments to be devised that prove the theory, trying to replicate something as complicated as the S device and expect it to work is fanciful.  The work requires laboratory equipment that I do not have, and also IMO access to annealing processes since I think the condition of the Fe is crucial.  Also surface preparation could be important, and as I pointed out the type of insulation between Cu and Fe could play its part.

I am not wedded to any particular theory, I just think people ought to be aware of the somewhat obscure possibilities out there.  If I suffered from cognitive dissonance I would not be offering a number of different possibilities :).

 


Offline CANGAS

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2014, 03:11:47 PM »
Coler information is extremely interesting.

Thanks to all very much.


CANGAS 44


Offline Shanti

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2014, 11:01:30 AM »
Shanti,

You must admit that the Magnetstromapparat and the Stromerzeuger are very different beasts. 

Only at first sight. At second sight they are way more similiar...

 
Quote
You seem to be of the opinion that the M device is fully explained by the galvanic effect and the S device was definitely a scam.   

Well both were scam. But the Stromerzeuger actually was an invention which works and which, if built correctly will really increase the voltage, but it will not output more power.
That was the problem of the patent translation into the english, where they wrongly translated higher power output, instead of higher output voltage,

 
Quote
You said previously that files from the Reichskanlei show that in all demonstrations people were not allowed to put their own meters in the circuit.  That is at odds with the reports from Kloss and Schumann where they obtained meters from other sources, even going so far as to using different types of meter (e.g. hot-wire as against moving-coil) in order to differentiate between AC and DC effects.  So far there has been no evidence that those reports were fabricated, so on the basis that those tests really did happen and they got the OU results quoted I am prepared to believe that the S device might be OU.  As Wanninger (the guy on the energiederzukunft.org forum who has done most of the research there and has built a non-working replication of the Norrby device) says, "I want to believe in it".

Sure you can always want to believe in it. But you can also believe in pink invisible elephants. That doesn't make them real.
I gave a much shortened version of the story here, as the whole story can be read on the thread I indicated.
And yes, later they were allegedly allowed to bring their own instruments. But as has already been said in the thread indicated. I would also do it like that, but then just wire it differently, so that some hidden wires would be introduced. There are so many possibilities to scam there...
Or maybe they simply put their own instruments exactly there, where the original instruments were. But as they obviously were not connected in the circuit as officially described, they also would have measured the same wrong values.
And as it was very obvious a deliberate scam when it was tested by the two guys I mentioned, there is IMHO absolute no ground to believe there was anything to it anytime before or after.
Or why should this setup have had the instruments placed so in the circuit as to show false data, if it actually worked???

 
Quote
  I think this is pure speculation since from my knowledge of such devices they require closed magnetic paths without any air gaps. 

No they don't. They just have to be saturated to the corresponding working point. And as this is done by an additional coil, there's no need for a closed loop magnetic path.

 
Quote
The sharp knee you see on the BH curve for square loop material does not occur when you plot the Flux v current curve if there is an air gap present, and certainly won't occur with coils wound onto rod cores. 

Simply not true. As said, when you wire an additional coil on it, as it is usually done, and has been done in the Stromerzeuger you can very easily get to any point on the saturation curve even on a rod. Just look at the other thread in the hcrs forum. There the user Dodes has done extensive tests relating to such curves on rod cores. And they showed exactly this behaviour.
Sure an open core is not ideal, but the principle still works.
But as an example just take the principle replication example given above for the Magnetstromapperat. There the cores are also just rods, but the principle still works fine anyways...



Quote
Also there is no connection between the saturation effects and any current flowing through the cores.

 ??? No idea, what you mean by this???

Quote
So IMO the S device is still a mystery, and I think all possible avenues should be explored.  For this reason I am placing my thoughts here on this forum in the hope that they might prompt someone into doing more research.  I agree that it requires simple experiments to be devised that prove the theory, trying to replicate something as complicated as the S device and expect it to work is fanciful.  The work requires laboratory equipment that I do not have, and also IMO access to annealing processes since I think the condition of the Fe is crucial.  Also surface preparation could be important, and as I pointed out the type of insulation between Cu and Fe could play its part.

Sure you can do share your ideas. I do not say anything against that. I just wanted to make you aware of the fact, that maybe your ideas and theoretical constructs already far wandered off from reality as there's not a single experimental verification for it.

In the end I can also always speculate that pink invisible elephants are there bringing in additional energy. But If I do not have any experimental verification of it, which proves to be true in my model, but is not explainable by conventional physics, it remains nothing but a very unlikely hypothesis.
As occams razor should always be considered.

This is why I would encourage you, based on your theories, you should come up with one experiment, as simple as possible, which would show your hypothesis is valid.

Quote
  If I suffered from cognitive dissonance I would not be offering a number of different possibilities :) .

See that's already the problem: We all suffer from cognitive dissonance!!! And we always must be aware of that. It is just the way the brain functions!!!
And giving different possibilities is only a seemingly way out. As the brain is clever and it always gives you options that either are compatible with ones own truth or is so off, that one can discard it as not valid.



Offline Mr XYZ

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2015, 03:48:42 AM »
hei Guys! I have here some old diagrams and descriptions which should add some light to the Hans Coler topic, especially as they seem to describe later projects done following on from his work! - It was only recently that I was able to dig around in my old paper records and rediscover these very rare reports which focus on a R&D group called ALPHA THETA, and on which you can find absolutely NOTHING on the internet as far as I can tell, and which I am now sharing here for the first time! – Apart from these photocopies, I have NO other information on this, apart from recalling that I first got this as an appendage attached to an infopack regarding the Coler Stromerzeuger etc at least 15 years ago. In case the photocopied reports/comments are hard to read, I may type them out later, time permitting, but you can see that the diagrams show 3 projects that are derived from the original HC device, and are not unrelated to flux-path--switch type techniques that you should be able to recognize! I trust that these will be illuminating to all here who have for so long pursued this thread and special line of research!   - especially Smudge :)

Bob,
I have met the author of this article at his laboratory in Kolberg.  He has two replications (built by other people) of the Coler Magnetstromapparat at his disposal.  He also has some sophisticated test equipment there and as you can see he has studied  ferromagnetic acoustic resonance.  AFAIK Aspden was the first to suggest that the magnets may have used this resonance.  The previous paragraph refers to ferromagnetic resonance which I take to be the classical FMR but that is at microwave frequencies and clearly the M machine does not use those directly.  Thorsten has copies of some of my papers.
Smudge

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Re: Theories concerning Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2015, 03:48:42 AM »

 

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