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Author Topic: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2  (Read 38665 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2016, 02:06:36 PM »
@Vidar

Quote from Vidar
"What torque readings do you have between the two crossing magnets?"  End quote

Sorry to have taken so long to reply, been very busy, and will
still be for another day or so.

The only measurements for torque on the ROtating magnet are those
in the RO graph.  Torque goes from a min. to a max  "and is different /"changes with each increment
of rotation and / or increment of change in distance by the SLideing magnet" .

The only torque quage I currently have access to is badly out of calibrration.
OK. I was just worried about any possible counter torque that will prevent things to work correctly.
I hope you make this device work, and whish you good luck :-)
Keep us posted.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2016, 02:06:36 PM »

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2016, 03:40:59 AM »

Below are an excerpt and a quote from Millers  "magnetic drive apparatus" patent. US 8,487,484 B1

"An apparently unrecognized requirement is the need to periodically relax the the drive components in order to facilitate continuous reciprocating movement."
..........................................................................
NEXT

I now have my first independent  confirmation of work in... to... work out ratios in the  new TD unit.

That person spent about 12 hours total over a three day period.  He used his own  weights, scales, measuring
devices.  He did complete sets of measurements (of RO and SL interactions),

Checked several tolerances within the TD device, using a wiggler and or dial indicator.

RO shaft end play was hand forced to 0.010 inch.

all pulleys within the assembly (for eccentricity) were found to be no more than to 0.010 eccentric

Photo graphed all of his measurements

Found NO discrepancies between his own measurements of input (SL) to output (RO) and my last posted measurements.

He is the first person to notice / comment that the TD is UNDER UNITY as opposed to either AT UNITY or OVER UNITY (at least as presented in the back wards manner In which I have proceeded).  Ive been waiting for some one to make that observation.

          floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2016, 08:04:51 PM »
@floor

I was doing some testing in a 3D simulator for any gain from the twisting or sliding together of thin magnets and it appears that it is possible to achieve a gain.
Like in the clip I posted where two long thin magnets can pull together repelling faces due to the attraction to the back side faces being stronger than the area of repelling faces.

It appears the back side face connection also assists in the rotation to the full repelling face alignment which allows for less work to rotate the magnets into alignment than what is required to directly force together the repelling faces. Very much the same as you are testing or maybe the concept of the Miller machine.




Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2016, 09:14:07 PM »
@ lumen

I think that The "back side face connection" and / or the
domain re orientations are factors... but it appears to me that
primarily, the force interactions in rotating as opposed to sliding
magnet approaches are fundamentally different from those found
in the case of any known mechanical linkage.

In other words, I'm saying that while convention would lead us toward
conventional mechanics in search of explanation, the primary explanation
for the O.U. simply can not be found there.

Back side interactions are not dominant in the "twist drive" interactions...
the magnets are polarized on the broad sides and it is a deep reach to
what would be considered their back sides.

 But were still  on the same page.

                 thanks
                         floor

As per always these designs are given into the public domain.

PS please find the attached PNG file


Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2016, 09:24:03 PM »
File would not up load.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2016, 09:24:03 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #80 on: September 15, 2016, 10:02:48 PM »
I don't know why the PNG file is so over size.  JPGs yes...
but first time one of a PNG has turned up so large.

(Better to rigkt click and then click on view rather than
scroll aroung on the PNG)

note

RO magnets and SL magnets can be sequenced as in the above file, but aslo the number of
magnets used is not limited to that number in the PNG file.

Output by SL, can be based around attraction of SL to RO, repultion of SL to RO or combinations of both.
depending upon magnet orientations.

Multiple parallel TD units may be benificially mechanically linked.

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #81 on: September 15, 2016, 10:16:49 PM »
@floor
I agree that there is little back face interaction when the poles are on the magnets sides and are twisted together as in your setup and there would need to be something else going on to see any OU effects.
The EDEN project was one of the first magnet interactions I tested and found by using a digital scale instead of the spring scale they used, I found no extra force in their experiment.

Then recently after reading again that the effect was greater using thin magnets over the cubes originally used, I thought it might be worth testing again and also because the Miller device appears to use the same concept.
Putting some logic behind the reason for the claimed OU gain is why I thought the connection to the back side faces assisting in the rotation may be the source.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #81 on: September 15, 2016, 10:16:49 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2016, 02:59:07 AM »
@lumen

  Its all good.

      floor

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2016, 10:00:31 AM »
If I may add some tips and tricks to this thread.


When you calculate gain, it is very important to calculate the energy, not forces alone.
I say this because there is so many misconseptions about force.
Most people forget to take the distance, either in the form of linear motion or rotational motion into account.
A linear force, or rotational force (torque) can not alone be responsible for the overall performance.


Say you have two electric motors for example.
If both motors, motor 1 and motor 2, have a torque of, say 10Nm each.
Motor 1 achieve this torque at 1000RPM and motor 2 achieve this torque at 2000RPM.
Both motor 1 and 2 have the same torque, and the misconseption is that both motors would cancel eachother out if working agains each other.
However, motor 2 delivers 2 times more energy than motor 1. Therfor, motor 2 will win the competition between the two.
If you place a gear ratio on motor 2, so the shaft spins at 1000RPM and the same as motor 1, the torque would be 20Nm. Therfor motor 2 will win.


A practical experiment with two magnets, where you look at the forces to separate them in two ways. Just as an example.
1-One way is to pull them directly apart. This require 10N of force.
2-The other way is to slide them apart. This require 1N of force.


1-It require a very short distance of separation to take them apart.
2-It requires 10 times the distance to take them apart.


The energy input to separate them are therfor the same. Calculating energy is the very essence.


If you have a rotational device, and calculate torques in 1 degree steps for example.
You can take each sample and multiply with the number of samples. 10 samples for 10 degree motion.
Then you take the result and devide by 10 to get the average torque over 10 degree motion.
Examples of readings of two interacting rotors:
1 - 10Nm, 8Nm, 5Nm, 2Nm, 0.5Nm, 0.4Nm, 0.3Nm, 0.2Nm, 0.1Nm. Sum=26.5Nm/10 samples = 2.65Nm average @ 10┬░ rotation.
2 - 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm. Sum 26.5/10 samples = 2,65Nm average @ 10┬░rotation.


I have done this wrong so many times, untill I suddenly realized that I need to figure out the total energy, not only torque or force.
Then I got the explanation why the practical experiment failed every time - because the product of force and motion was the same and opposite.


Vidar

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2016, 06:04:18 PM »
@Low-Q

 Thanks vidar
...................
At all (interested) readers

Energy (kinetic)= force times displacement.

The joule is a unit of measurement of both energy and work.

1 joule is the amount of energy expended in doing the work of lifting about 102
grams of weight, a distance of 1 meter (in standard gravity).
............................
The newton is a unit of measurement of force.

1 newton of force (by definition) is the force needed to ACCELERATE a 1 kilogram mass
(against a resistance to acceleration, which is due solely to the inertia of that mass)
at the rate of  1 meter per second per each second  (1m/s/s  or  1m/s^2) that the 1
newton of force is applied.
......................................
A 1 kilogram mass exerts 9.80665 (about 10) newtons of force down in Earth's standard gravity.

This because all objects (small objects) in near Earth gravity free fall accelerate at the rate of
9.80665 meters per second per each second that they free fall.

A force causing a 1 kilogram mass to accelerate at the rate of 9.80665 m/s/s is therefore, a force of
9.80665 newtons.

The greater the mass of an attracted object the greater also is the force exerted upon it, under a given
gravitational influence.

The greater the mass of an attracted object the greater also is it's weight, under that given
gravitational influence.
........................................
About 102 grams of mass, (or weight in standard gravity) exerts a force of 1 newton down.

1 newton of force causing  a 1 meter displacement of an object requires an energy transfer of 1 joule of energy. , or one can also say that 1 joule of work is done..

1 joule is the amount of energy expended in doing the work of lifting about 102
grams of weight, a distance of 1 meter (in standard gravity).

In the Twist Drive (TD) measurements, the degrees upon the degree scales represent an amplification of the  mm of fall, that the applied weights move during the increments of  measurement..

              Thank you again vidar.
                       
                            floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2016, 06:04:18 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2016, 06:19:22 AM »
@floor

It's interesting that after running extensive tests in a 3d simulator at 1% error, it does in fact show that a gain in energy is present.
The strange thing is that the gain that it indicates is just slightly over 25%. Though your setup is a bit different it seems the results are nearly the same.

If the results are within 1% at each position and there are 18 positions tested, then it seems it could be off as much as 18% if all tests were off in the same direction and near 1%.
I need to either lower the error to .1% or build a device to test the interaction and collect actual results.


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2016, 07:05:00 AM »
An error measured in % is a relative figure. If you measure +1% error at a million samples per cycle, you still got only 1% error - not a million %.
So your simulations would be correct with an uncertainty of 1%. However, the longer steps you take for each sample, you might miss a lot in between. For example if you missed out a small area where the counter torque is very great.
That said, if the torque has the same sign all around one revolution, and not change sign from + to - the other half, it is probably a working design.


Vidar



Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2016, 07:11:46 AM »
@lumen

Thank you for all your efforts.
My hope is that you can find the time for a replication.

I have been looking for some one willing to do a replication for what seem a long time now.
One replication might lead to many others, and (a real body of evidence, for or against).

         best wishes
                      floor

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2016, 07:59:43 AM »
@Floor


Is it any way to make your design small? I would like to make a try building it with small neo-magnets. I have different sizes and shapes. What shape would you prefer?
Maybe some sort of building instructions would be nice.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2016, 06:44:31 PM »
@Low-Q

For starters, and for verification purposes, inexspensive ceramic magnets shoulkd be used.
Also, the magnets ,should be as nearly identicle to those used in my device as is possible.
The magnets I have used were aboyt $ 2 (US).

I have been developing an easy to build design, and I'll let you know as that design progresses.

             floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2016, 06:44:31 PM »

 

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