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Author Topic: Recover energy from gravity  (Read 72173 times)

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2014, 07:42:58 AM »
It's only 3 objects in free rotation. Not easy to build in practise the free rotation, but like Algodoo don't compute friction, if someone can test with another simulator it can be confirm (or not) these results, the test is very short to do. Nobody has another simulator ? With an axis for Object 1 it seems the system increase energy too. P = 18.5 rd/s * 0.026 m /2 * 88 * cos(60) = 10.5 W

edit: cvf2

In some cases, F1 don't work around its trajectory, F2 too. But F1/F2 give a torque, no ?

« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 07:04:16 PM by rc4 »

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2014, 09:58:14 PM »
I understood and now I can optimised the efficiency. Sum of force 93.45 N act on Object1, like the center of gravity move in linear trajectory, this increase the linear velocity of the system (when you are at 10 m/s and add a rotational force, the system accelerate because the rotationnal velocity increase in the same time). For object2, the trajectory is circular and linear, this increase the rotational velocity. I added the scene. I added a possibility for torque that explain a difference.

30 W with good parameters for masses.

I added a gif for show where is the torque that create energy. The torque exist between Object1 and 2.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 09:20:48 AM by rc4 »

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2014, 05:13:20 PM »
I understood too in the system where there is not direct torque from F(cg1)/F(cg2). In the system with trajectory like first image showing, forces are like second image shows. Center of gravity of Object2 moves like red circle. F1 and F2 apply a torque, this torque is exactly the same for Object1. For Object2, F1 is separated by d from F2, there a torque but F1 works more than F2. The difference of power is F*w*d.

If I change angular velocity to 6 rd/s, forces are divided by 8 and angular velocity by 3, the power is divided by 24, it's linear. I change frequency, this don't change the result.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 07:35:28 PM by rc4 »

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2014, 06:24:23 PM »
I tested with several frequencies. I thought 4800 Hz was near the best but if I let turn I have energy like second image shows. BUT only when forces are like third image, I compute with spreadsheet all datas, and energy come from red/orange object not green object. Maybe torque come only from centrifugal forces red/orange object because they must keep trajectory give by green object.

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #94 on: May 16, 2014, 08:46:00 AM »
I compute all torques, it's only the difference of trajectories that give energy. It's logical. When I find 22*3 = 66 W Algodoo find less: 15 W. It's possible to move red and orange objects and look at energy after one object touch green object, if forces are like I show before, the energy increase. Red object give 66 W and orange object give 171 W with calculation (without friction). Algodoo give 15 W for red and 35 W for orange object. Maybe the difference is somewhere else than friction. Note that orange and red object must be like image shows for have best result (if red and orange objects touch green object in the same side the energy is lower). Maybe the difference come from my method of compute torque. I think Algodoo compute with mesh 2D and I compute with center of gravity maybe the result is not the same because each object has its own trajectory. Like Algodoo don't give force of a part of object I can't compute torque like that.

I added the scene with unstable forces, energy increase only when forces are in a special position.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 04:19:31 PM by rc4 »

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #95 on: May 17, 2014, 09:33:37 AM »
I understood where come from the problem, it's only when red object has a torque (around itself) from green object. Last scenes, red object is not perfectly perpendicular because Algodoo change the position of red object (need to zoom a lot for show it). It's possible with red object to give at green object 0 torque (2 torques cancel themselves), the same is done at red object but like position of gravity (and trajectory) are not the same the red object has a torque if forces are not perpendicular. This torque create energy. If you look at slope of trajectories of center of gravity, it's logical: there is a phase angle between object red and object green.

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2014, 12:55:26 PM »
bad scene

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2014, 09:40:59 AM »
With this scene it's possible to have an oscillation for energy. This oscillation decrease with frequency but never diseapear.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 07:29:06 PM by rc4 »

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #98 on: May 21, 2014, 10:24:20 PM »
In this last scene I can recover 1.3 % at frequency 12000 Hz. If it's an error of Algodoo it's 0.25 J of 18 J at this frequency and with stable forces I don't think it's possible. Someone else can test with another software ?

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2014, 12:22:15 AM »
New scene. Explanation where the energy come from.

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2014, 02:34:22 PM »
If blue object turn at constant rotational velocity around axis "axis" (external system not drawn limit its rotational velocity). Orange object is forced to be like image because there is Fc force. If I apply forces F1 and F2 on orange object, it will turn and I increase potential energy. But in the same time blue object has a torque from -F1/-F2 because distances d1 and d2 are not equal. The energy from blue object can be recover by external system and limit rotational velocity of blue object. With a rotational velocity clockwise, orange object can receive a standard torque. F1/F2 on orange object will slow down orange object and decrease potential energy but this energy can be recover in the same time.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 04:40:40 PM by rc4 »

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2014, 11:35:37 PM »
With Algodoo it's works, until torque is apply to small disk, the big disk receive a torque too.

If you change the direction of rotational velocity of big disk this change the sum of energy. If I compute energy from motor, this is less than the additional energy giving to the system.

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #102 on: May 30, 2014, 08:56:02 AM »
I tested with Algodoo. The motor give 0.15 Nm * 9 rd/s = 1.35 J each second (in fact less because I take the last rotational velocity not the mean). Algodoo give 2 J, look at the scene please.

Another test:

rotational velocity at start of big object = -6.28 rd/s

rotational velocity at start of small object = 6.28 rd/s
rotational velocity at end of small object = 7.77 rd/s

energy at start for all system = 114.56 J
energy at end for all system = 116.408 J

Motor torque  = 0.15 Nm

Loss without motor for all system at 6.28 rd/s = 0.1 W

Power from motor = (7.77+6.28)/2*0.15 = 1.05 W

Power from Algodoo = (116.408-114.56)/1 + 0.1 = 1.95 W

Near the double because when torque is giving to small object the big receive the same free. Why not exactly the double ? because small object increase its rotational velocity at 7.77 rd/s but the big increase its rotational velocity to 6.34 rs/s  only. The energy is 0.946 W from the torque 0.15 Nm. So the result find by Algodoo is 1.95W and I must find 2 W !!! very close.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 11:43:50 AM by rc4 »

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #103 on: May 31, 2014, 10:00:34 AM »
In the last post, maybe you can think the energy give by motor to big disk it's an energy from the motor, but not, the stator like the rotor turn around central axis and the motor don't turn really around central axis, it's not a true rotation because the rotor like the stator turn together.

I think it's important to take w1=-w2 like that motor "see" a real rotation for disk2. And it's necessary to recover torque give from motor to disk1 like that angular velocity around central axis is constant.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 01:05:13 PM by rc4 »

rc4

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Re: Recover energy from gravity
« Reply #104 on: June 01, 2014, 09:28:09 PM »
If I take stem and object at end like image shows. I give rotational velocity to stem around axis "x", object rotates around "x" not around "y". The system has less energy than if object turns around "y" too. Stem turns at w around "x", object turns around "x" at w, but don't turn around "y". Object and stem don't have same rotational velocity (w compare to 0). Now I can brake from stem to object, object add a torque (and I can recover energy from brake) to stem and add its rotational velocity, the system add energy.

I apply F3 to object, stem receive F1, axis "y" receive F2 and F4 ? so, all these torque cancel themselves but the system has more energy at end.

The system in this case seems to lost energy, but it's possible to give rotational velocity to object around axis "y" and accelerate the object around "y". At start all turn at w around "x" and object turns at w around "y". After, I accelerate rotational velocity of object around "y".

I think it's works only if moment of inertia are different for object and stem (around their axis), and it is I think. Energy giving by a torque is torque*angle, but like moment of inertia are different, angle will be different even torque are the same in value.