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Author Topic: Lenzless resonant transformer  (Read 112197 times)

Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2014, 11:34:31 AM »

Completely different, but the basic idea is the same: multiple closed magnetic circuits inside the core while primary is a solenoid. But in this case primary is also looped and those small secondary coils can loop also against primary so behavior might be different.


I wanted to put picture here showing that I am not here just for talk, now that I finally got the camera working :-)


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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2014, 11:34:31 AM »

Offline verpies

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2014, 09:47:15 PM »
Ok, Jack,
Thanks for the pictures, but that seems to be a completely different ball game.
What is the theory/idea behind this (the through hole coils)?
Yes, it is a different ball game but I have seen credible reports of success with it from experienced electronic engineers with good scopes, signal generators and power amplifiers. 
Allegedly a large nanocrystalline or amorphous metal core is required for this to work ( Nanoperm, Metglas, Finemet, Supermalloy, Supermendur, etc...). Obtaining the core is the biggest show stopper - the rest is easy.

The theory/idea behind this is in this patent.

Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2014, 09:18:27 AM »
I got unexpected results. First I measured the resonant frequency of the yellow wire (1000 nf), it was about 1350 Hz. Next I measured the same for the red wire, it was about 1200 Hz. Slight difference here because one of the whole was not exactly in the middle. Then I measured resonance with 1000 nf in the red wire isolated in a tank circuit and another tank with yellow wire. It was still 1350 Hz ! Shorting the red wire had no effect. Then I cut red wire and connect only one coil with capacitor forming isolated LC, still no change. Finally reversed this so that primary was one coil red wire and secondary 5 coils of yellow wire and still no effect.


So, result was that there were no loops at all as I thought it would be. Just one loop around the core and no smaller loops.


Next I will make primary going horizontally and leave the small secondaries vertically. I will cut them and reconnect one at a time as polarities will change. If secondaries only want to loop around the core then they should not affect primary at all. Also each secondary should amplify other secondaries and each small primary should amplify other small primary coils. We will see.

Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2014, 09:45:11 AM »
Yes, it is a different ball game but I have seen credible reports of success with it from experienced electronic engineers with good scopes, signal generators and power amplifiers. 
Allegedly a large nanocrystalline or amorphous metal core is required for this to work ( Nanoperm, Metglas, Finemet, Supermalloy, Supermendur, etc...). Obtaining the core is the biggest show stopper - the rest is easy.

The theory/idea behind this is in this patent.

Hmmmm,   a "solid state electric generator" he,  sounds interesting.
Seems that jack has already the main ingredients.

Square wave in, (in resonance), sine wave out?


Regards Itsu
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 12:57:58 PM by itsu »

Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2014, 09:55:08 AM »
I got unexpected results. First I measured the resonant frequency of the yellow wire (1000 nf), it was about 1350 Hz. Next I measured the same for the red wire, it was about 1200 Hz. Slight difference here because one of the whole was not exactly in the middle.........

So the holes needs to be centered in the middle to have symmetrical response.


I did the 3th coil yesterday, about 200 turns 0.4mm magnet wire like on the prim/sec.
Open ended it follows the resonance of the secondary (62KHz @ 5Vpp), but when terminating with a capacitor, it peaks (e.g. 75KHz with a 10 nF cap @110Vpp!!) on its own,  leaving the sec. res in place.
It tried to match the both resonances by manipulating the 3th coil cap, but its very picky, so need more time to experiment.


Regards Itsu




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2014, 09:55:08 AM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2014, 11:09:04 PM »

Here a video of the 3th coil (about 100 turns / 1 mH) when brought in resonance around 65KHz with 5.5nF capacity (190V pp).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flMi92xcC3c&feature=youtu.be

The same as what was happening before with the prim/sec coils, now happens with the resonance of the secondary.
When this 3th coil hits resonance, the secondary bulb shows a dip meaning its pulled out of resonance.

Probably very well to be explained, so no abnormality as far as i know.

Regards Itsu

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #81 on: February 27, 2014, 06:40:02 AM »
Itsu:

I haven't followed the thread but I looked at your last clip and I think that I have an explanation for why the bulb dims.  It all goes back to the preconceived notion or prejudice that resonance must be doing something positive.  A wiser person will not make any assumptions when dealing with electronics.  What I am about to tell you was determined (a.k.a. 'discovered') on Conrad's series bifilar coil test thread.  Conrad may come back at a later date with more tests, to be determined.

The issue is what is really happening when the 3rd coil + cap is excited at its resonant frequency.  We can observe that the voltage across the coil reaches a maximum.  Therefore, by definition, the current through the coil also reaches a maximum 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage.  That means that the 3rd coil + cap when excited at the resonant frequency is becoming a huge power drain on the signal generator.  In fact, when you are at resonance, the 3rd coil + cap is acting as the heaviest possible load on the setup.  So, depending what your goals are, this could be a very bad thing.

This also explains the false 'delayed Lenz effect' where when you put a load across a pickup coil + cap that is tuned to the pulse motor magnet pass frequency.  In this setup, the pickup coil is draining the maximum electrical power and turning it into heat when it is running at resonance.   When you add a load resistor across the pickup coil on the pulse motor, the power being burned off in the pickup coil + cap + load resistor goes down in comparison to the pickup coil plus cap alone.  Hence the pulse motor speeds up.  There is no such thing as the 'delayed Lenz effect.'

Going back to your test, a big chunk of the signal generator power is being drained off in the 3rd coil + cap, it's happening in the resistance of the wire itself.  The higher the current in the resonant tank, the more power burned off and turned into heat.  So it makes sense that the light bulb that is part of the regular secondary circuit dims, because the power is being 'stolen' by the 3rd coil + cap.

The moral of the story is to measure the various wire resistances of your coils and measure the RMS current flowing though the coils so that you can measure where the power is being burnt off in the circuit.  The power being burnt off in the wire of the coil always counts and it must be factored into your measurements.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #81 on: February 27, 2014, 06:40:02 AM »
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Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #82 on: February 27, 2014, 07:47:32 AM »
Here a video of the 3th coil (about 100 turns / 1 mH) when brought in resonance around 65KHz with 5.5nF capacity (190V pp).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flMi92xcC3c&feature=youtu.be

The same as what was happening before with the prim/sec coils, now happens with the resonance of the secondary.
When this 3th coil hits resonance, the secondary bulb shows a dip meaning its pulled out of resonance.

Probably very well to be explained, so no abnormality as far as i know.

Regards Itsu



Thanks itsu, that was almost what I had in mind.


The 100 turn coil with cap should be the primary, one secondary isolated tank and on the other secondary you put load in series with cap. Result should be that primary remains in resonance when power is taken.


If result is positive, then could try with bigger capacitors ?


I am bit confused with the results here. Energy stored in a capacitor is Q*V*V. In this case V=190 and Q=5.5nf, this times 62000 gives 12 watts circulating in the tank, still it cannot light that tiny bulb. Bulb resistance seems to affect this, maybe it causes voltage to drop in capacitor and energy cannot be used ? So what we need is at least one isolated tank in the system.


Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #83 on: February 27, 2014, 10:18:04 AM »

Played with the todoid having holes, again not what I expected but a learning experience still. I made two horizontal coils and used one as primary. Results were:


I got no light out of second primary. So no looping of magnetic current occurred.
I got light from secondaries that went through the same hole but no light from other secondaries.
When I took power, nothing still in other secondaries so no feedback occurred. Seems that in this case magnetic current wants only to go against magnetic current that created it. In the iron E-I core it wanted to loop through every route. Maybe it has something to do with shape of the core. I tried to push 100+ watts at high frequency and primary blocked everything above 5000 Hz. So it is not about core saturation.


Next test is the one I originally made the holes for. Five vertical coils, first in two parts so there will be two secondary coils. One will be just LC and the other will be output with cap and this matched for 'secondary' resonance. Primary all around circumference of the toroid, not diagonally through center. This will then be similar to case with E-I core, now five coils instead of three.


I will take picture if this shows anything special.


Offline Farmhand

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #84 on: February 27, 2014, 11:11:34 AM »
Itsu:

I haven't followed the thread but I looked at your last clip and I think that I have an explanation for why the bulb dims.  It all goes back to the preconceived notion or prejudice that resonance must be doing something positive.  A wiser person will not make any assumptions when dealing with electronics.  What I am about to tell you was determined (a.k.a. 'discovered') on Conrad's series bifilar coil test thread.  Conrad may come back at a later date with more tests, to be determined.

The issue is what is really happening when the 3rd coil + cap is excited at its resonant frequency.  We can observe that the voltage across the coil reaches a maximum.  Therefore, by definition, the current through the coil also reaches a maximum 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage.  That means that the 3rd coil + cap when excited at the resonant frequency is becoming a huge power drain on the signal generator.  In fact, when you are at resonance, the 3rd coil + cap is acting as the heaviest possible load on the setup.  So, depending what your goals are, this could be a very bad thing.

This also explains the false 'delayed Lenz effect' where when you put a load across a pickup coil + cap that is tuned to the pulse motor magnet pass frequency.  In this setup, the pickup coil is draining the maximum electrical power and turning it into heat when it is running at resonance.   When you add a load resistor across the pickup coil on the pulse motor, the power being burned off in the pickup coil + cap + load resistor goes down in comparison to the pickup coil plus cap alone.  Hence the pulse motor speeds up.  There is no such thing as the 'delayed Lenz effect.'

Going back to your test, a big chunk of the signal generator power is being drained off in the 3rd coil + cap, it's happening in the resistance of the wire itself.  The higher the current in the resonant tank, the more power burned off and turned into heat.  So it makes sense that the light bulb that is part of the regular secondary circuit dims, because the power is being 'stolen' by the 3rd coil + cap.

The moral of the story is to measure the various wire resistances of your coils and measure the RMS current flowing though the coils so that you can measure where the power is being burnt off in the circuit.  The power being burnt off in the wire of the coil always counts and it must be factored into your measurements.

MileHigh

In all fairness MileHigh, I have been saying and showing (for almost 8 Months now) the acceleration under load effect or delayed Lenz effect is an effect of resonance and that it actually entails an increased Lenz effect that is decreased on load.

Speed up under load video  http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?o=U&pi=4

Less input with added load video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxde9qga79c

I also explained the effect using the Tesla coils showing a decreased input under load well before the motor generator experiment.

There was no need for any fancy tests to see what was happening. No need for big coils with a lot of "impedance", the effect could be got with capacitors to get resonance or a harmonic to create a lot of activity in the "Tank" as a parasitic load, and limit the available output so the tank voltage would drop like a stone when loaded even moderately.

The trick to limiting losses in a "resonant" type system is to be able to de-tune the setup to almost no input when less (activity) power is required and "tune it in" when the greater activity is required. This is more practical in a solid state setup. The "Q" of the tank determines a lot the losses in a lightly loaded setup where the activity never gets to a significant energy "burn off point" due to the light load taking that energy.

..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #84 on: February 27, 2014, 11:11:34 AM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #85 on: February 27, 2014, 11:36:13 AM »

Going back to your test, a big chunk of the signal generator power is being drained off in the 3rd coil + cap, it's happening in the resistance of the wire itself.  The higher the current in the resonant tank, the more power burned off and turned into heat.  So it makes sense that the light bulb that is part of the regular secondary circuit dims, because the power is being 'stolen' by the 3rd coil + cap.

The moral of the story is to measure the various wire resistances of your coils and measure the RMS current flowing though the coils so that you can measure where the power is being burnt off in the circuit.  The power being burnt off in the wire of the coil always counts and it must be factored into your measurements.

MileHigh

Thanks MileHigh,

you got a way with words.....  i agree, its my feeling also, but you put it down very nicely.

I can try to "map" the currents involved and so confirm that this L3 is draining the energy from the resonating L2.

Regards Itsu

Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #86 on: February 27, 2014, 11:46:41 AM »


Thanks itsu, that was almost what I had in mind.


The 100 turn coil with cap should be the primary, one secondary isolated tank and on the other secondary you put load in series with cap. Result should be that primary remains in resonance when power is taken.


If result is positive, then could try with bigger capacitors ?


I am bit confused with the results here. Energy stored in a capacitor is Q*V*V. In this case V=190 and Q=5.5nf, this times 62000 gives 12 watts circulating in the tank, still it cannot light that tiny bulb. Bulb resistance seems to affect this, maybe it causes voltage to drop in capacitor and energy cannot be used ? So what we need is at least one isolated tank in the system.

Ok Jack,

I missed that the L3 should be the primary, i can change that and feed the L3 with the FG.

I do have some problems with your "isolated tank".
I fact, none of the 3 coils is really isolated as all 3 are linked via the core.
On the other hand they are not direct connected to each other, so in that way they are all 3 isolated.
So perhaps you can rededine with what you mean by:
"one secondary isolated tank and on the other secondary you put load in series with cap."

Thanks,  regards Itsu

Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #87 on: February 27, 2014, 12:40:38 PM »
Ok Jack,

I missed that the L3 should be the primary, i can change that and feed the L3 with the FG.

I do have some problems with your "isolated tank".
I fact, none of the 3 coils is really isolated as all 3 are linked via the core.
On the other hand they are not direct connected to each other, so in that way they are all 3 isolated.
So perhaps you can rededine with what you mean by:
"one secondary isolated tank and on the other secondary you put load in series with cap."

Thanks,  regards Itsu



By 'isolated' I mean electrically isolated. There was no picture of this in the pdf, I realised later that results were little better with separate LC-circuit.


Looking at your latest vid, remove signal gen and bulb from one secondary so result is electrically isolated LC tank. Second secondary with bulb remains the same.


If possible, current and voltage readings would also be interesting to see in the isolated LC. That reactive power should be reflected to the other secondary. But does output bulb now reduce reactive power circulating in the isolated LC ?


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2014, 02:51:04 AM »
Farmhand:

Yes, I recall your comments now.  Note that presentation and analysis of data is an important aspect of getting people's attention.  It's very rare that I watch YouTube clips nowadays, so I don't know if you crunched the numbers or not or just made an observation.  Conrad dropped the ball there in my opinion.  It looked pretty obvious that the total coil system dissipation went down when he added the load resistor, but it was Gyula that confirmed the observation by crunching the numbers about two weeks after the fact.  It's not my place to tell people what to do but that's my opinion.  What almost drives me crazy is when people make a clip where they do a verbal run-down of what the connections are.  They should make a schematic.  Perhaps it doesn't bother other people, I don't know.  But my eyes glaze over by the time you get to the verbal description of the fourth connection.

Itsu:

Thanks for your comments.  Please keep in mind when I post often I am thinking about the wider general audience so some comments are not necessarily specific to you.  For example, in many of your clips you measure the coil resistance and mention it.  You have a great testing setup and excellent bench skills.

Jack:

From page 2:

Quote
verpies: It most certainly is OU, but I have no meters so I cannot say how much.

Hold your horses!  Honestly, I have never seen an electronic circuit produce OU.  Coils are not OU.  Transformers are not OU.  Capacitors are not OU.  That doesn't mean that you still can't turn investigations into circuits into a great learning experience.  Note that Itsu has replicated many different OU candidate circuits and has not found OU in any of them.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #89 on: February 28, 2014, 03:14:04 AM »
Jack:

Quote
I am bit confused with the results here. Energy stored in a capacitor is Q*V*V. In this case V=190 and Q=5.5nf, this times 62000 gives 12 watts circulating in the tank, still it cannot light that tiny bulb. Bulb resistance seems to affect this, maybe it causes voltage to drop in capacitor and energy cannot be used ? So what we need is at least one isolated tank in the system.

I am not sure what you are talking about here.

The energy in a capacitor is 1/2*C*V*V.    "Q" is used for charge, not capacitance.   The energy crunches out to 99.3 micro-joules of energy.  That's what's circulating in the tank.  What do you mean when you say "12 watts," that doesn't make sense!  We are talking about energy in the tank, not power.

I know it's kind of politically incorrect to correct other people sometimes.  But if people don't correct each other then you have stagnation, and you end up spinning your wheels and making the same errors over and over.   My advice to you is to find a good YouTube channel for beginning electronics instruction.  Watch every clip in the channel until you get it.  Then move onto an intermediate YouTube channel for electronics instruction.

Please don't get offended, I am giving you sound advice.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #89 on: February 28, 2014, 03:14:04 AM »

 

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