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Author Topic: Lenzless resonant transformer  (Read 108104 times)

Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2014, 06:02:56 PM »
You have confirmed the effect I had. I did not notice the first resonant point, most likely because it was below 1 kHz and I started sweeping from 1 kHz. Though this coil is still different from mine effect seems to be the same: second resonance point orders of magnitude higher than the first one.


What if you now remove the capacitor in primary and feed the system with 550 kHz, the second resonant frequency (could be that this changes when cap is removed) ? Primary should now effectively block all current flow and when bulb is connected to output then its effect on primary would be low.


Possibly more power now flowing on the output side compared to input side ?
Change to bigger capacitor in the output. Second resonance frequency would come down, does output power increase ?


I removed the input cap as requested, but then i lost all resonance peaks.
Not sure the input bulb also needs to be removed, anyhow, no real abnormallities seen.

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMXVnca_FiQ&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2014, 06:02:56 PM »

Offline verpies

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2014, 02:42:59 AM »
I removed the input cap as requested, but then i lost all resonance peaks.
Now only the capacitive reactance of the secondary capacitor determines the current. 
Capacitive reactance decreases with increase of frequency
so the current increases with increase of frequency (and the bulbs gets brighter).

At very high frequencies the transformer exhibits some minor secondary effects.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2014, 08:45:51 PM »
Thanks verpies.

I know Jack is not in this weekend, so on the risk that he misses the above info, i went on and build a core more as i think Jack has it.

Ferrite core u=1000,
2x 200 turn coils on opposite sides of this core (0.4mm magnet wire)
2x 21mH inductance
2x 1.3 Ohm resistance
Prim. CW, sec. CCW

Together with 2x 7nF capacitors and 2x 6V bulbs i build a similar circuit as with the earlier core and did some measurements.

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4xy9aEJJ_g

It shows that never the output bulb is brighter then the input bulb allthough there is some time/frequency where the input bulb is off and the output bulb on.

To me this does not show any abnormal behavior.

Regards Itsu

Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2014, 08:28:58 AM »
Very nice experiments, and the cat looked nice too. Now we know that capacitor is needed in the output side.


I did notice a brief moment where output bulb was brighter than input, but on wards.


What were the first and second resonance points ?


Realized during weekend that now we should try to bring the second resonance point to same with the first one. Maybe this can be done by adding caps to output side ?



If first resonance point is for example 22 kHz and second is 550 kHz when using same valued caps then this is 25 fold difference. To bring second resonance point down then you would need 25*25*7 nf = 4375 nf worth of capacitors. This is what the math says but reality maybe different.


So for the next test can you do this:


1. Measure first resonance point with output disconnected, input bulb not needed here.
2. Measure second resonance point with only cap in the output, also no bulbs here on either side.
    From these values we get the factor that should say how much capacitors are needed in the output.
3. Start adding output capacitors and see how second resonance point moves down. Does it affect first resonance point ? Mark the new resonance point and voltage in the output cap and also power circulating in the output.





Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2014, 11:12:13 AM »

Hi Jack,

offcourse we can manipulate all kind of settings by adding/removing caps/bulbs etc. to see what happens, but.......
I thought that you claimed to have some kind of special effect when setting up a simple experiment (30 minutes).

Up till now i have tried to follow your drawings (no pictures yet of your setup, why not escapes me) and created/measured 3 different core/coil setups.

all 3 behaves differently, but all of them show effects having to do with resonance which have been gracefully and very knowledably explained by verpies.

So before i continue testing, could you please tell me:

which of the 3 setups i have resembles the best your setup which has this special effect?
Did you notice in any of my tests the special effect you are claiming? And if so which setup/when?
What components are you using (besides the M88 nanoperm core), like capacitors, wire, nbr of turns?


Concerning your questions (i assume they are for this latest setup):

Quote
What were the first and second resonance points ?

i looked at my video again and this showed:

Prim. resonance (very broadbanded) 180KHz - 700Hz
Sec   resonance 62KHz.  (primary responance dips almost at this same frequency as the prim bulb comes on too).


Quote
Realized during weekend that now we should try to bring the second resonance point to same with the first one.
Maybe this can be done by adding caps to output side ?

Well, as you can see above, the primary is already in resonance all the time when the secondary comes into resonance,
so i don't think what you suggest is possible.



Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2014, 11:12:13 AM »
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Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2014, 12:17:07 PM »
Hi Jack,

offcourse we can manipulate all kind of settings by adding/removing caps/bulbs etc. to see what happens, but.......
I thought that you claimed to have some kind of special effect when setting up a simple experiment (30 minutes).

Up till now i have tried to follow your drawings (no pictures yet of your setup, why not escapes me) and created/measured 3 different core/coil setups.

all 3 behaves differently, but all of them show effects having to do with resonance which have been gracefully and very knowledably explained by verpies.

So before i continue testing, could you please tell me:

which of the 3 setups i have resembles the best your setup which has this special effect?
Did you notice in any of my tests the special effect you are claiming? And if so which setup/when?
What components are you using (besides the M88 nanoperm core), like capacitors, wire, nbr of turns?


Concerning your questions (i assume they are for this latest setup):

i looked at my video again and this showed:

Prim. resonance (very broadbanded) 180KHz - 700Hz
Sec   resonance 62KHz.  (primary responance dips almost at this same frequency as the prim bulb comes on too).


Well, as you can see above, the primary is already in resonance all the time when the secondary comes into resonance,
so i don't think what you suggest is possible.



Regards Itsu



The last one shows the same effect, second resonant frequency which is higher than resonant frequency of the primary when output is not connected at all. Also core that was winded as verpies said had it. This is why think something special might happen if second resonant frequency matches the first resonant frequency. By first resonance I mean point where primary resonates when output is not connected at all and there is no current flowing in the primary side because it is blocked by parallel LC. This resonant point cannot be wide. [/size][size=78%]I cannot test this so I don't know, but you have the tools to investigate it. Adding a bigger capacitor at output brings 2nd resonant frequency down. I noticed this happening in my tests when changing from 500 nf to 1000 nf. But why it happened I have no idea.


Can you see what I am after ? Adding caps in output does not change resonant frequency of the primary LC. When second resonant frequency matches the first one, current is blocked in the primary LC. Now when power is taken at this frequency, what is the result ? Impedance of the system does not change, hence source will see only resistive load. How much this then affects source ?


I used 1000 nf caps, about 80 turns of 0.31 mm wire and permeability of M88 is 80000.


The purpose of this thread is the third coil around the whole thing. When I was testing this I tried also without third coil and realized 2nd frequency occurs also there. I got the same amount of light out, but now input was affected also. However, I got more light and heat out than in. Now your vids have shown that when second resonance occurs input voltage is in phase with input current so input power computing is not complex. Also your vids showed that there is also the first resonant frequency still left. These were new info to me.

At the moment I don't which one is more interesting, three coil system or this two coil dual resonance system. There could be surprises ahead, I hope you still have strength to try the resonant matching using caps with the two coil system. Lets not give up just yet.


Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2014, 01:33:52 PM »

Jack,

i have no intensions to stop now, but i need some clear directions.

The very first sentences already makes my head spin  :o :

Quote
The last one shows the same effect, second resonant frequency which is higher than resonant frequency of the primary when output is not connected at all.
Also core that was winded as verpies said had it.


You mean the last setup with the 2x 200 turns, Right?
If so then again, the sec. res freq. is NOT higher then prim. res freq., sec res fall into the broad prim res.
And what do you mean by "when output is not connected at all"?   I never removed the output bulb!

And its normal that when either LC is in resonance, we see only a resistive load meaning both voltage and current in phase.

Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2014, 01:33:52 PM »
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Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2014, 01:55:40 PM »
Jack,

i have no intensions to stop now, but i need some clear directions.

The very first sentences already makes my head spin  :o :


You mean the last setup with the 2x 200 turns, Right?
If so then again, the sec. res freq. is NOT higher then prim. res freq., sec res fall into the broad prim res.
And what do you mean by "when output is not connected at all"?   I never removed the output bulb!

And its normal that when either LC is in resonance, we see only a resistive load meaning both voltage and current in phase.

Regards Itsu


Yes, setup with 2*200 turns.


Sorry about the mess with the terms, I explain.



Resonant frequency of the 21 mH coil with 7 nf cap is 13127 Hz when secondary is not connected from: f=1/2*pi*sqrt(LC). This is what I mean with first resonant frequency.


Second resonant frequency was at 62 kHz when secondary was connected using 7 nf cap.


This is 4.7 fold difference so this squared times 7 nf gives 156 nf capacitor would be needed at output to bring second resonant frequency down to 13127 Hz. If I am correct that is. Using 220 nf should bring it lower than 13127 Hz, it is a good test to see if this actually happens. If result is not lower than 13127 Hz, then the formula I used is not correct and proper C to use needs to be searhed for.


Now I am thinking it would make sense to bring first resonance frequency down by using bigger capacitor in the primary. With 220 nf primary cap first resonant frequency would be 2342 Hz giving 26 fold difference (if secondary resonance is still 62 kHz), resulting in 26*26*220 = 154243 nf worth of C in the output. Hmm, maybe a bit too much. This is for further study if something interesting is found with current setup using 7 nf primary capacitor.

Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2014, 02:30:31 PM »

Ok, 

Latest setup (2x 200), lets follow that one as it is the closed of what you have right now.
I agree on the calculated resonance frequencies (21 mH coil with 7 nf cap is 13127 Hz) as it is confirmed by my online calculator
http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm

But somehow the circuit changes the parameters as i found a broad prim res freq of 180KHz - 700Kz and sec. res freq. of 62KHz
So either the inductance or capacitance or both is changed under influenz of the serial/parallel resonances with the bulbs (resistor/inductor) in place.

I will use the latest setup (2x 200) again with the 7nF and will see if adding capacitors to the secondary will decrease the sec res freq ideally to 13127Hz


Regards Itsu

Offline forest

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2014, 02:42:28 PM »
I believe you need 2 times lower resonant frequency on primary then on secondary ,with no current flow in primary.  ;D

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2014, 02:42:28 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2014, 10:31:19 PM »

I used the latest setup (2x 200) with the 7nF's and added capacitors to the secondary untill the sec res freq was lowered to 13127Hz.
It toke 138nF to do so, so we now have a total of 145nF at the secondary.

But also the primary non-resonance dip traveled along downwards, so now at 13.127KHz both bulbs are equally lit, the output bulb
in resonance, the input bulb not at resonance.

So when we change the secondary resonance point by adding caps, we force the primary out of resonance at this point.

Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNJhpL8Dro&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu



Offline verpies

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2014, 01:43:26 AM »
So when we change the secondary resonance point by adding caps, we force the primary out of resonance at this point.
Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNJhpL8Dro&feature=youtu.be
The tighter the magnetic coupling coefficient of the transformer, the closer these two frequencies influence and track each other.

Also, the mutual inductance "consumes" the free leakage inductance of each winding. If the magnetic coupling is 100% then there is no leakage inductance left over to participate in oscillations of any LC tanks (an ideal situation for a power supply transformers!). 

Finally, anything connected to the secondary of a 1:1 transformer with ideal coupling, appears as if it was connected in place of the primary winding, e.g.: any cap connected to the secondary acts as if it were connected in place of the primary winding.


Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2014, 09:01:17 AM »

Thanks for this test, nothing special occurs here when two resonances meet. Very good that you actually could bring the second resonant frequency so close to first one.


Now it is time to wind turns around the toroid and see if there is lenzless effect in this setup. What would be correct number of turns ? There are two options. Option 1 is to wind enough turns so that primary blocks at second resonant frequency which was 62 kHz. Option 2 is to wind less turns and to make parallel LC circuit that would block at 62 kHz. I used both methods and result was better when I used capacitor. I got this effect only once as finding resonance is difficult for me with only 5 watt bulb as indicator.


In the pdf I listed effects regarding number of turns in the primary and in the secondary. These may or may not happen with your core itsu. I have only 80000 perm core while your core is 1000, so a huge difference.


I had also one small E-I ferrite core, permeability most likely below 5000. I got good results with that one and the reason is that there were three coils working together while in a toroid only two coils can work together. Two coils is enough to verify lenzless effect though.


Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2014, 10:51:25 AM »

I have drilled five 4 mm holes in my nanoperm toroid so now it has ten coils working together. I was able to put 2*20 turns through each hole, all same direction, red and yellow wire. The primary is 24 turns. I put plastic straw inside the hole to protect the wires from scraping.


Drill blade was special, intended to drill holes in stone. Blade was made by company named Piranha. Blades that should drill hole in iron did not work very well. Steady pressure at low rpm and I got nice whole without damaging the core.


Picture quality is bad but could not do better, difficult to take picture because the manual switch in the cell phone that activates the camera is not fully working.


Next I will do some tests with this when I have time, should be interesting. Hopefully I can still find second resonant frequency.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2014, 11:08:17 AM »

Ok, jack,

thanks for the pictures, but that seems to be a completely different ball game.

It does not look like anything that i have now.

What is the theory/idea behind this (the through hole coils)?


Anyway, i will try to wind a 3th coil around the core like you mention in the PDF and do some measurements.
But expect some questions on what/where to measure  :-)

Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2014, 11:08:17 AM »

 

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