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Author Topic: Forceless Magnetic Flux  (Read 12734 times)

Offline vineet_kiran

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Forceless Magnetic Flux
« on: December 15, 2013, 08:44:50 AM »
 
A try to get magnetic flux without force.

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Forceless Magnetic Flux
« on: December 15, 2013, 08:44:50 AM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2013, 12:49:22 PM »
Hi Vineet,

Interesting setup, have not seen it elsewhere.

You have not mentioned the presence of the South pole of the coil the AC input current also creates whenever it creates the North pole: I imagine this effect would cause a mechanical 'trembling' in both the coil and the magnets due to the continuous change of the coil poles as the AC frequency dictates. I am not saying this is bad, just trying to compare this situation to the case of a normally operating mains transformer core which you approach with a permanent magnet in your hand: the changing stray flux near the core makes the magnet 'trembling' (the AC flux would both attract and repel  equally it with 50 or 60Hz speed) and you would feel the 'inertia' of the magnet body with your fingers.

Of course the 'trembling' would not be felt in your setup (like in my hand held magnet example) if all the magnets and the coil were fixed firmly. I know my example is not fully correct for comparison because BOTH the flux of the mains transformer core and the permanent magnet have two poles (of which the core flux is the one which is changing) while in your setup the flux of the permanent magnets maintains a single polarity pole and the coil gives the flux with the changing poles.

So your setup is: a coil is excited by an AC current and inserted into a strong static magnetic field of a monopole polarity, in the moment when one side or part of the coil happens to be a North pole, the permanent magnets' North pole flux surely strengthten the North part of the coil flux, and when the other side or part of the coil in that same moment would have the South pole from the AC input, the permanent magnets' flux would weaken or maybe 'neutralize' the South part of the coil flux. And in the next moment as the AC current changes direction the coil poles also change and the flux interaction process happens again but in the opposite direction.

You mention some sort of super induction, I wonder how it could manifest as an advantage. It is okay that the monopole (North in your drawing) flux field from the magnets would jump to the appearing South pole of the coil and then jump again to the other part of the coil as the coil pole would change as per the AC input: this 'jumping' is the flux change to cause induction BUT whether this induction is better than a 'normal' Faraday induction or not I cannot tell, maybe I totally omit considering something important. Perhaps I do not get fully the advantage of what you term as magnetic flux without force. Tests should be conducted to see this.

Greetings,  Gyula

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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2013, 03:26:58 PM »

So your setup is: a coil is excited by an AC current and inserted into a strong static magnetic field of a monopole polarity, in the moment when one side or part of the coil happens to be a North pole, the permanent magnets' North pole flux surely strengthten the North part of the coil flux, and when the other side or part of the coil in that same moment would have the South pole from the AC input, the permanent magnets' flux would weaken or maybe 'neutralize' the South part of the coil flux. And in the next moment as the AC current changes direction the coil poles also change and the flux interaction process happens again but in the opposite direction.


 
@gyulasun,
 
 
I understand your explanation.  But the above process happens only when north pole of a magnet  is tightly bonded with south pole which we studied in schools as imaginary lines of force starting from north pole and ending in south pole.  Suppose if we break these lines of force and prevent them from going to opposite pole,  then the flux (lines of force) should oscillate corresponding to the change in magnetic field in AC coil. 
 
Instead of a permanent magnet if you bring a iron plate near a AC coil,  it will not tremble but it provides opposite pole corresponding to the changes in poles  produced by the coil.  I expect something similar to happen in the above setup. When coil produces north pole it should twist or rotate forceless flux to suit to its direction.  ie., when flux is N-S in the coil,  it should align the forceless flux in S-N direction.  Infact north and south poles exist at all points in a magnetic field and monopole doesnot exist.
 
Just compare this with a ship sail fastened tightly at top and bottom.  When wind blows,  sail experiences force which it transfers to the ship and ship moves forward.  Suppose if you detach the fastening of sail at the bottom,  the sail becomes a flag and when wind blows,  it simply waves freely in air without taking any force from wind and ship will not move forward. 
 
In any case I am not sure about the experiment.  It is just a wild guess!
 
 
Regards,
 
Vineet.K.
 
 

Offline Newton II

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2014, 05:04:05 PM »

... But the above process happens only when north pole of a magnet  is tightly bonded with south pole which we studied in schools as imaginary lines of force starting from north pole and ending in south pole.  Suppose if we break these lines of force and prevent them from going to opposite pole,  then the flux (lines of force) should oscillate corresponding to the change in magnetic field in AC coil. 
 


I don't know whether that explanation is funny or interesting.  Is there any analogy between properties of matter and field?     Matter usually  consists of  bonded electrons which donot take part in any chemical and electrical reactions (innermost electrons)  valence elctrons which take part in chemical reactions( electrons in outer orbits)  and free electrons which take part in electrical reactions (conduction).

Just like that is there anything like bonded flux which donot react with AC wave,  valance flux (don't know  what it does) and  'free flux'  (forceless flux as said by V_K)  which reacts with AC wave?

Does this video posted by TK in tinman's thead show the presence of 'free flux' in a strong magnetic field?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQJFuKvrUEs



Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2014, 05:22:06 PM »
Quote
But the above process happens only when north pole of a magnet  is tightly bonded with south pole which we studied in schools as imaginary lines of force starting from north pole and ending in south pole.  Suppose if we break these lines of force and prevent them from going to opposite pole,  then the flux (lines of force) should oscillate corresponding to the change in magnetic field in AC coil.

That's wrong. All magnetic field lines are closed loops. They do not "start on the north pole and end on the south pole". They form complete loops all the way through the bulk magnet. This is the physical meaning of divB=0.

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2014, 05:22:06 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2014, 05:53:22 PM »
That's wrong. All magnetic field lines are closed loops. They do not "start on the north pole and end on the south pole". They form complete loops all the way through the bulk magnet. This is the physical meaning of divB=0.

A closed magnetic loop is a conservative field, magnetic field lines do tend to form closed loops.  However the flux path flow direction is from north pole to south pole according to physics teachings and power generation theory. 

Magnetic fields are basically lazy, (similar to electricity), finding and using the shortest or easiest path to satisfy the closed loop differential.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2014, 09:02:20 PM »
All magnetic field lines are closed loops! Consider the source of the magnetic field in a bulk material. It comes from the spins of unpaired electrons in the atoms of the material that makes up the bulk magnet. You can think of the electron's charge as "orbiting around" the nucleus if you like: now it's easy to see that the magnetic field created by that electron's charge in motion is a closed loop. The field lines loop around the electron's path. Sure the "direction of flow" is defined as you say: "out" of North and "in" to South. But nothing flows! The term "flux" is another misleading term we have to deal with. When you magnetize a bulk material you are essentially aligning a lot of those little individual loops of field lines, so you see the field outside the bulk material and you can engineer using the fiction that they "start" at the N pole and "end" at the S pole... but it's easy to prove that that is a fiction, simply by cutting the magnet in half. And again. And again, until finally you only have the one atom left... and you will see the field line making a complete loop around the electron's path in orbit.

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2014, 09:02:20 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2014, 01:26:39 AM »
All magnetic field lines are closed loops! Consider the source of the magnetic field in a bulk material. It comes from the spins of unpaired electrons in the atoms of the material that makes up the bulk magnet. You can think of the electron's charge as "orbiting around" the nucleus if you like: now it's easy to see that the magnetic field created by that electron's charge in motion is a closed loop. The field lines loop around the electron's path. Sure the "direction of flow" is defined as you say: "out" of North and "in" to South. But nothing flows! The term "flux" is another misleading term we have to deal with. When you magnetize a bulk material you are essentially aligning a lot of those little individual loops of field lines, so you see the field outside the bulk material and you can engineer using the fiction that they "start" at the N pole and "end" at the S pole... but it's easy to prove that that is a fiction, simply by cutting the magnet in half. And again. And again, until finally you only have the one atom left... and you will see the field line making a complete loop around the electron's path in orbit.

Nicely put TinselKoala.  I like your explanation.  The term "magnetize" would also be a "term to deal with" like flux.  (But they are kind of handy to use at times).  Are the magnetic loops and electron spins then, perpetual in nature in your opinion, or just long lasting? 

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2014, 03:09:52 AM »
Magnetic flux, lines of force, direction of flux etc., are only conventions used to explain or study the magnetic fields.  Even if you consider the direction of flux as from S pole to N pole, it is not going to make any difference. Einstein considered magnetic field as a "jelly like thing"  surrounding the magnet.

What I intend to say is that, a magnetic field is characterized by force and flux.  When you bring a iron piece near a magnet, the magnet attracts the iron piece with a force and at the same time flux flows through the iron piece. If you absorb the force by some mechanical means, will not the flux flowing through the iron piece become forceless?
 
If you take a magnet near a iron leaf spring, the spring bends and absorbs( balances) the magnetic force and flux flowing through the spring becomes 'forceless'. (?)

What happens if you make a liquid coil?  Liquids donot have strong bonds as in the case of solids (hence they are liquids). When you take a AC wave near a liquid coil,  will not the 'liquid molecular magnets' vibrate or align in the direction of flux produced by AC wave?

Has anybody ever tried to make a liquid coil?   (fill a thin PVC tube with electrolytic solution, wind the tube around a magnetic or non magnetic material and pass a DC through the tube.  You will have a liquid coil !!!)
 
 
 

Offline forest

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2014, 09:17:15 AM »
ha ! I have a device on this principle laying in dust for 3 years  :-X  Had no time and experience to start it up. But i will give you a hint : free magnetic fields in space mostly overlap but what about the magnetic fields from two separate sources ? We know two magnets repel or attract so ..... ? what is the chance of turtle to pass the road ?

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2014, 09:17:15 AM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2014, 02:24:41 PM »

ha ! I have a device on this principle laying in dust for 3 years  :-X  Had no time and experience to start it up. But i will give you a hint : free magnetic fields in space mostly overlap but what about the magnetic fields from two separate sources ? We know two magnets repel or attract so ..... ? what is the chance of turtle to pass the road ?


 
It is interesting to know that a device exists with that principle. What is that device? what for it is used?  Please give the complete details with a drawing.
 
Free magnetic fields in space ovrelap with AC wave whereas magnetic fields from two separate sources donot react with AC wave they will only cause mechanical trembling of  the coil.  I was not sure about this experiment hence I have posted it in ' half baked ideas'.  But when you say that you have a device based on this principle, there should be some valid theory behind it.  Please give the details of the device.
 
 

Offline Newton II

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2014, 03:44:14 PM »

Has anybody ever tried to make a liquid coil?   (fill a thin PVC tube with electrolytic solution, wind the tube around a magnetic or non magnetic material and pass a DC through the tube.  You will have a liquid coil !!!)



Liquid coil??


In an electrolytic solution,  current between two electrodes is carried by charge carriers (does anybody know what are these charge carriers?) but not by electrons.   The electrons are consumed by positive ions near the electrode itself.   So,  if a liquid coil is able to produce a magnetic field,  then we may have to change the general belief that only moving electrons produce magnetic fields.  It may lead to a conclusion that all moving charges produce magnetic fields.

It will also lead to another interesting outcome:   A moving negative charge produces magnetic field.  Does a moving positive charge produce an      anti magnetic field?????  If you join magnetic field  with anti magnetic field  will it vanish off into nothing?  just as what happens when you join matter with anti matter?  (interesting subject for a sci-fi movie!!!)




Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2014, 06:36:33 PM »

http://www.evilmadscientist.com/2006/mhd-i-demonstrate-magnetohydrodynamic-propulsion-in-a-minute/


 
If you keep the electrodes far apart from each other and place the strong magnet below one electrode,  the salt solution 
rotates round the electrode like planets around the sun.  I have conducted this experiment long time ago independently.
 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics
 

 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 04:49:57 AM by vineet_kiran »

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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2014, 06:18:55 AM »

It will also lead to another interesting outcome:   A moving negative charge produces magnetic field.  Does a moving positive charge produce an  anti magnetic field ??? ?? 
 

Yes...  a moving positive charge will produce anti - magnetic field!  If  you turn this anti-magnetic flux with respect to a coil,  the coil will produce a positron current!!   This positron current if reacts with electrons in the coil, they together vanish off into nothing releasing gamma (coma) rays!!!
 
But how will you create a current of moving positive charges?
 

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Re: Forceless Magnetic Flux
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2014, 06:18:55 AM »

 

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