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Author Topic: How to make multiple Kicks  (Read 63538 times)

Offline forest

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2013, 08:29:18 PM »
Because it is not clear:
-  is it the wave of sth or wave in sth ...and in what or of what ?
- what is the wavelength of DC ?


Wave in ether. DC is a lot of very high frequencies combined. Actually it is very like the DC power supply made with voltage stabilizer with a ripple , but the ripple is not visible being extremally high frequency, every ion interaction produce those EW wave. Look, I don't pretend to know it in details , those are my thought and a barebone of theory, I don't state it is perfect, but it has a merit, I'm sure.
Ha, now you would probably like to know what is ether ?

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2013, 08:29:18 PM »

Offline verpies

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2013, 08:44:59 PM »
Ha, now you would probably like to know what is ether ?
...and what are its physical properties? e.g. density, mass, compressibility, stiffness, etc...
At the same time, why doesn't it slow down planets or moons? Does it move together with the Earth or Mars or Venus or Sun or Galaxy?
Why its relative speed is not felt as planets move in respect to each other or their planetary surfaces move with rotation?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline wings

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2013, 08:57:20 PM »
to Verpies related to Floyd Sweet VTA and other parametric excitations & magnetic experiments

... too much (difficult) for me but interesting

https://www.weizmann.ac.il/lvov/
http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Tariel-Kapanadze/Wessley-WNY-Group/wings/Magnetization%20Oscillations%20and%20Waves.pdf

Offline forest

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2013, 09:10:53 PM »
...and what are its physical properties? e.g. density, mass, compressibility, stiffness, etc...
At the same time, why doesn't it slow down planets or moons? Does it move together with the Earth or Mars or Venus or Sun or Galaxy?
Why its relative speed is not felt as planets move in respect to each other or their planetary surfaces move with rotation?


Good questions about the properties because they actually limit speed of light, the rest is misconception... Ether is not material it is a base for matter. Prana and Akasha are two kinds of existence : wave and emptiness , wave is the "force" and emptiness is "matter". The so called matter is jsut a place when there is no wave, the source of outcoming and incoming wave baing in perfect symmetry or standing wave. The any other state is the cause of movement and interaction with all matter.... So the ether is NOT static , NOT material it is better understood as a space-time with granuality, because it is formed by actuall interaction of each and every single "point" in universe. Each matter continously emit EM wave and absob EM waves from all other in universe and that "ambient background" is ETHER.
The spin, the movement, the mass and all properties of particle is made because of delay, phase shift and other interaction of waves...but it is immaterial for us today - we are no sufficiently knowledgeable to use that ...


Offline verpies

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2013, 09:34:49 PM »
Good questions about the properties because they actually limit speed of light, ...
So the ether is NOT static , NOT material it is better understood as a space-time with granularity, because it is formed by actual interaction of each and every single "point" in universe.
If you'd written that Aether is the speed of light formed by one "grain" of space per one "grain" of time, then we might have a common thread of understanding. 
Note that, this is very different from a claim, that space/time is a container filled with another entity called "Aether" and that Aether is a separate entity from space/time.  This issue of separateness is paramount here!

As far as light being an undulation propagating through this Aether like a wave in a pond - I vehemently disagree with that proposition.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2013, 09:34:49 PM »
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Offline forest

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2013, 10:12:24 PM »
But it is ! I pointed at that Ether as I understood it is a "structure" composed of actual interactions of all waves forming space-time. If you take a small area of ether and find and measure longitudinal wave propagating as a distortion of that Ether  - it is light (or EM wave). The enterprise for future scientist is to uncover why the light running "in circle" forming two opposing whirls become magnetic field. Many many questions not answered still but I'm quite sure ALL that is really already explained but classified.

Offline verpies

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2013, 10:18:48 PM »
Note that, this is very different from a claim, that space/time is a container filled with another entity called "Aether" and that Aether is a separate entity from space/time.  This issue of separateness is paramount here!

As far as light being an undulation propagating through this Aether like a wave in a pond - I vehemently disagree with that proposition.
But it is !
If your "Aether" is a separate entity from space/time, then light is not a wave in it.  If you think so, then you're falling for an old mental crutch.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2013, 10:18:48 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2013, 10:18:50 PM »
http://amasci.com/miscon/speed.html
The speed of electric current

Since nothing visibly moves when the charge-sea flows, we cannot measure the speed of its flow by eye. Instead we do it by making some assumptions and doing a calculation. Let's say we have an electric current in normal lamp cord connected to bright light bulb. The electric current works out to be a flow of approximatly 3 inches per hour. Very slow!
Here's how I worked out that value. I know:

Bulb power: about 100 watts, about 100V at 1A
Value for electric current: I = 1 ampere
Wire diameter: D = 2/10 cm, radius R=.1cm
Mobile electrons per cc (for copper, if 1 per atom): Q = 8.5*10^+22
Charge per electron: e = 1.6*10^-19
The equation:


cm/sec =   ________I_______  = .0023 cm/sec  =  8.4 cm/hour
           Q * e * R^2 * pi

Charge or spin current or ?
http://inamori-frontier.kyushu-u.ac.jp/electronics/common/img/spin_current_en.jpg

Hi Wings, I think what you are calculating there is the physical movement of the electrons themselves. If the charge moved that slowly then with AC electricity reversing polarity 50 to 60 times a second the load at the end of a 30 foot long electric cable would get no charge due to the charge not being able to get to the end of the wire.

The electrons in my view are simply put "like a human chain" they pass charge along the line. If with AC, the charge movement is unequal then the net movement of electrons a small amount in one direction should occur. If with the AC no load is drawn and so no charges are used then there should be theoretically no net movement of electrons.

In a wire with DC If a load is drawn then there should be a net movement of electrons as a result of the passing of charge.

We were taught a long time ago even in boilermaker basic electrical theory that electrons only "jiggle" in a wire and move only a small amount over a long period. THis tells me that the "charge" that powers the load is not electrons as such but the charge that they pass along the wire.

People can get all technical and confuse everyone but the engineers if they want but what does that achieve ?

In simple terms if electrons do not move along the wire as fast as the wave of energy or the energy than the electrons themselves are only carriers of charge.

If an electron is accelerated outside a wire then imparts energy when decelerated then it is just a kinetic energy thing isn't it. A mass in motion. Energy is added to accelerate it and energy is dissipated to decelerate it.

I think it is more constructive to look at the movement of charge on a wire. And define the basic principal through which the load is powered by energy from the supply in a very short amount of time while the electrons hardly move at all, in other words the electrons themselves are not electric current in a wire. Rather the movement of the charge which powers the load is the electric current in a wire. In my opinion. The electrons are responding to an applied force by transferring charge along the wire from one electron to another. The electron movement is only a small part of the electric current in a wire. In my opinion. All results from the application of a potential to create an emf. There are different types of potential, a potential disaster is one type. Potential energy can be in many forms. It can be an elevated tank of water, it can be charge on the plates of a capacitor, the potential energy in the chemicals of a battery ect. ect. A potential can create an emf which can cause charges to flow and transfer energy along a wire using electrons to "pass the bucket" so to speak. All just my opinion.

Now where did I put all those numbers, were they necessary to understanding the basic principal ? Probably not.

Cheers

Offline verpies

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2013, 11:26:47 PM »
@Farmhand

I like the way you think, since you are making a distinction between movement of charge and movement of electrons (or ions).
However in your musings have one commonality. Namely the assumption that charged free electrons are needed to transmit charge through a solid wire...like buckets in a human bucket brigade are needed to transport water.

I'd like you to consider another possibility:
Namely, that charge is an independent entity that can exist without charge carriers such as electrons, positrons, protons, muons, ions, etc... and as such charge is capable of moving through electrically conductive solid matter, just like displacement current is capable of moving through a vacuum capacitor without involving any electrons or other charge carriers.

Can your mind be open to such proposition?

@All
Does anyone ever follow the links that I embed in my posts?
It seems "not" or they are not read carefully with an understanding, because many of these issues are explained there.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2013, 12:32:27 AM »
Hi Verpies, It'll take me some time to try to decipher most of your links. I think I'll need a break from posting to allow me to focus in "thought trains".

Quote
I'd like you to consider another possibility:
Namely, that charge is an independent entity that can exist without charge carriers such as electrons, positrons, protons, muons, ions, etc... and as such charge is capable of moving through electrically conductive solid matter, just like displacement current is capable of moving through a vacuum capacitor without involving any electrons or other charge carriers.

Yes I can certainly be open to such a proposition as you suggest. Which is why I keep mentioning displacement current. It simply would mean that the electrons are just "shoved", "pulled", "repelled", " attracted" or otherwise moved as a result of the charge flow or something as simple as that. I am open to anything that makes sense and is logical. Especially if it can help me in practical ways.

I do have some deep thinking to do.

Thanks


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2013, 12:32:27 AM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2013, 12:58:01 AM »
It simply would mean that the electrons are just "shoved", "pulled", "repelled", " attracted" or otherwise moved as a result of the charge flow or something as simple as that.
I was drawn to the same conclusion despite holding a Ph.D in conventional physics.

Outside of solid conductors, particles are definitely "shoved", "pushed" and bombarded by charge. 
The difference is that non-charged particles (e.g. neutrons) are "shoved" equally in all directions (equal forces in all directions sum to zero), while charged particles are "shoved" asymmetrically because they channel the charge asymmetrically through themselves. 

For example, according to the links to Miles' papers that I posted, the spatial distribution of proton's charge channeling profile, is like a disk. 
In other words, charge goes in through the axis and exits around the equator. 
The quantity of charge is preserved while making this trip, but its directional distribution is affected severely and the charge "shoving" forces stop being equal in all directions.

I am open to anything that makes sense and is logical. Especially if it can help me in practical ways.
I think that mechanical interactions are also needed besides logic to make sense of nature.
Fortunately charge can be explained mechanically just like colliding spinning baseball balls, that move and spin at the speed of light.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2013, 01:23:23 AM »
Farmhand actually got it right in one of his recent postings.  Electrons themselves are just a "medium" for lack of a better term.  It's the electric field that exists in the ambient environment of the conductor that directly influences and affects what the electrons do.  When you turn on a switch, every single electron in the circuit is all of a sudden being pushed around by the same manifestation of the electric field.

There is no bumping into each other or passing a bucket or anything like that.   It's like all of a sudden all of the electrons have invisible stretched elastic bands pulling them in a certain direction.  They all feel it and they all move at the same time.

You can measure the current and you know one amp is a coulomb of charge per second.  You also know how many electrons there are in a coulomb.  So you can determine how many electrons per second pass a point.  The actual physical drift velocity of the electrons in a wire I am sure can be calculated.  However, you have to ask yourself is this information useful?  When you play with electronics the voltage and the current reign supreme.  You have to assume that the physical drift velocity of the electrons in a very thin wire is faster than the velocity for a thick wire.  Okay, but then what?  What can I do with that information?

On the micro time scale, when the switch closes, the electric field moves down the wire at close to the speed of light.  So that means you can ignore that very small time factor when you work on the bench.  Not if you are a digital design engineer, though.  The speed a signal travels at in a circuit board trace is now critical.  If you have a good scope you should be able to see the propagation delay in a signal that travels one inch and the same signal travelling 10 inches.

Anyway, going back to the electrons and giving you a simplistic analogy, I think of the electric field like a "wind" and the electrons are like "floating leaves in the wind."  It's Autumn.  The strength of the "wind" is like the strength of the electric field.

I know that many people don't believe that moving electrons are responsible for what we call "electric current" in a conductor like a wire.  The problem is that there is so much experimental evidence to support that and there isn't any that I am aware of for the alternative theories.

Somebody mentioned the symmetry of Nature.  Probably the best analogy for electric circuits is the water in a pipe analogy.  With enough insight that should make sense to most of you.  Can you think of the "water circuit" equivalents for the standard components that you see in electronics?

MileHigh


Offline verpies

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2013, 02:39:00 AM »
Farmhand actually got it right in one of his recent postings.
How do you know?

Electrons themselves are just a "medium" for lack of a better term.
Medium for what? Why is any medium needed at all, for the movement of charge?
Why doesn't displacement current require the "electron medium" to transmit charge?

It's the electric field that exists in the ambient environment of the conductor that directly influences and affects what the electrons do. 
Does "ambient" mean inside the conductor or outside the conductor to you?
What is that "electric field" you are writing about in this context?
Is it a mathematical field of vectors (vectors denoting what?: force, speed, etc..) or something real that can interact mechanically (e.g. like wind particles) ?

When you turn on a switch, every single electron in the circuit is all of a sudden being pushed around by the same manifestation of the electric field.
Again, you're slipping into the discussion the undefined and unanalyzed concept of "electric field". 
Let's assume for now that you mean a group of some "charge particles" (not "charged particles"!), that are smaller than electrons and that those particles cause forces giving rise to a "field of electric forces".  If this assumption is correct then it begs the following questions:
How do you know that free charged electrons move inside solid conductor due to a push by a charge wind?
Is it because electrons are pushed by charge outside of conductors?
If "yes", do you consider the inside of the conductor to be the same as the outside of the conductor for the electrons ?

There is no bumping into each other or passing a bucket or anything like that.   It's like all of a sudden all of the electrons have invisible stretched elastic bands pulling them in a certain direction.  They all feel it and they all move at the same time.
That's non mechanical. Sounds like magic and is exactly the type of thinking that a logical person should be avoiding.

You can measure the current and you know one amp is a coulomb of charge per second.  You also know how many electrons there are in a coulomb.  So you can determine how many electrons per second pass a point. 
Only if you assume that free charged electrons are necessary for carrying the charge through the wire.

On the micro time scale, when the switch closes, the electric field moves down the wire at close to the speed of light. 
...but what is this electric field?  A field of what? 
In legacy science an "electric field" is a "field of force vectors". It is an abstract concept, that does not even specify the cause of those forces. You are not suggesting invisible rubber bands again, are you?

So that means you can ignore that very small time factor when you work on the bench.  Not if you are a digital design engineer, though.  The speed a signal travels at in a circuit board trace is now critical.  If you have a good scope you should be able to see the propagation delay in a signal that travels one inch and the same signal traveling 10 inches.
I know, I run into this problem all the time when synchronizing clocks to my FPGAs.  However this is an enginnering problem, that detracts us from the discussion how charge travels inside a solid wire.

Anyway, going back to the electrons and giving you a simplistic analogy, I think of the electric field like a "wind" and the electrons are like "floating leaves in the wind."
I see no evidence against electrons being blown by a charge wind like leaves (outside conductors), but why do you insist, that this wind needs leaves at all in order to exist and move ?
Can't the wind (consisting of air molecules in motion) exist without leaves?  Can't charge exist without electrons ?

The strength of the "wind" is like the strength of the electric field.
Do you mean that:
1) this "wind" is the "electric field" ?
2) this "wind" causes the "forces of the electric field" ?

In any case what is this wind composed of. or at least, what are the properties of its constituents?

I know that many people don't believe that moving electrons are responsible for what we call "electric current" in a conductor like a wire.  The problem is that there is so much experimental evidence to support that and there isn't any that I am aware of for the alternative theories.
Really!? Can you quote some experimental evidence that proves that free charged electrons are necessary for the transmission of charge through a wire (moving charge is electric current). 
Also, how do you explain the electron-less displacement current in a vacuum capacitor ?
BTW: I do not dispute that moving electrons in free space constitute current, but that's different than current inside conductors.

As, for the alternative theories, can you explain why don't all the free charged electrons in a conductor repel themselves onto the surface of a conductor after a while. 
That's for starters.

Offline Qwert

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2013, 10:07:33 AM »
Farmhand, Verpies, Milehigh, I think these links can be quite appropriate in your recent discussion:
http://amasci.com/miscon/speed.html
http://amasci.com/ele-edu.html

According to those pages, Verpies is the closest one to the truth.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MileHigh

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #74 on: November 30, 2013, 03:01:40 AM »
Verpies:

I still think the meaning of "current" in "displacement current" is misunderstood.  There is no current, nothing flowing, in displacement current.  They don't literally mean current when they say displacement current.  They use "current" as a pseudonym for what is really happening to make it easer to talk about it.  So no need for electrons.  It's replaced by the changing field generated by the electrons.

Ambient means inside the conductor.  I am always talking about the same electric field, the one you can measure with your multimeter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXxkIjJY1DY

Quote
How do you know that free charged electrons move inside solid conductor due to a push by a charge wind?

This is where people need to think of water pressure in a pipe and its ability to make the water move.  You know an electric field will apply a force to a charge and make it move.  Because of this property of charge interacting with an electric field and the property of the wire being a conductor, you can get current flow.

The inside of a conductor and the free space around the conductor are definitely different so I am not sure what you are alluding to there.

Quote
That's non mechanical. Sounds like magic and is exactly the type of thinking that a logical person should be avoiding.

It only sounds like magic if you discount or for some reason don't want to believe in what experimentation shows on the bench.  As mentioned above, charges are affected by electric fields.

The "leaves" are the outer valence electrons in the metallic matrix.

Quote
Can you quote some experimental evidence that proves that free charged electrons are necessary for the transmission of charge through a wire (moving charge is electric current).

Discharge a capacitor through a resistor and observe the exponential decay.

Quote
As, for the alternative theories, can you explain why don't all the free charged electrons in a conductor repel themselves onto the surface of a conductor after a while.

I am not sure if you are talking about a charged body or not.  Certainly for a charged body the excess electrons are on the surface.

MileHigh

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Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #74 on: November 30, 2013, 03:01:40 AM »

 

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