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Author Topic: Overunity (what is it?)  (Read 35375 times)

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2013, 02:35:53 AM »
Quote

 
I won't ask any more and if you don't provide evidence the readers of the thread can draw their own conclusions.


Time will tell.  And as for the readers of the thread,  I'm fairly certain that a goodly number of them are capable of using the "search" function on this site to find further information, as the topic has been re-visited "once or twice".
 
You're too jaded, you must be communist Chinese.
 
See, I can make leaps in logic while ignoring evidence too.
 
I think it obvious that my "vice" is FE.  As for your use of "Hoe", that "cracked" me up.
 
Quote
I'll tell you what.  Think instead about having ssex with a 1974 Sylvie Kristel in bathroom of an airplane during a long transatlantic flight.

 
Wow.  With delusional fantasy skills like that....Umm....who needs drugs?
 
 
 
 
 
TS
 
 

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2013, 02:35:53 AM »

Online MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2013, 02:49:20 AM »
I'll make an appeal to the readers of this thread:

If anybody can provide some links that back up TechStuf's claims about cavitation I would be happy to have a look at them.

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Offline TechStuf

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2013, 02:59:32 AM »
 
Well, it seems obvious that you have fingers....
 
 
Perhaps use them for typing a few bits in the search field.
 
 
As a wise man once said,  "These aren't fart bubbles in the tub we're talking about here".  (I paraphrase)
 
 
 
TS

Offline webby1

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2013, 03:05:54 AM »
Webby1:

Like I said, you can't compare apples and oranges.  One is a friction heater and the other is a pump.  They are completely different things.  The cavitation in the friction heater does not affect the integrity of the thin water "skin" that is wrapped around the inner drum.  What it does do is create a "disturbance" to the quasi-laminar flow of water that would exist if there was no cavitation.  That disturbance to the quasi-laminar flow causes more resistance to the rotation of the inner drum.

For a pump, some kind of cylinder is sucking on a long cylindrical plug of water and pulling it through a long pipe and there is resistance to the water flow.  When the length of a pipe is over 100 times the inner diameter of the pipe it acts just like a resistor.  When the water cavitates, then the pump is not pulling the water through the long pipe any more hence the resistance experienced by the motor goes down.

Going back to the drum heater, if it was driven to the point that the thin water "skin" that surrounds the drum itself cavitated, then the resistance to rotation would drop sharply and the drum would speed up like crazy.  Does that make sense to you?

MileHigh

I get the pump is not a drum heater and that there are differences,, no problem there,, and I have experienced "resistance" at a lot shorter distance :)

I watched the vid a few more times and I am not seeing any bubbles between the drum and the barrel,,  not sure what to think,, but it is an interesting idea.


Online MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2013, 04:06:29 AM »
Webby1:

Just for "fun" I tried to look up the tensile strength of water.  It was one of those cases where the search was frustratingly difficult.  Finally I found what looked like a credible link that stated it can vary between one and 25 megapascals.  It depends on things like impurities in the water.  So let's say for argument's sake it's two megapascals.  Converting that to psi gives you the tensile strength of water being 290 psi.

Air pressure is 14.7 psi.   Let's imagine you have a metal cylinder with a closed end and an open end.  It's filled with water and the cross-sectional area of the inner cylinder is five square inches.  So if you have a piston in the cylinder and a machine pulling on the piston and slowly ratcheting up the pulling force, the machine has to pull with about 1450 pounds of force before the "break" happens and the water cavitates.  After the cavitation, then you are only pulling against the outside air pressure, which would be about 73.5 pounds.

So as you can see in this thought experiment, imagine the pulling pressure from the machine slowly increases to the point where it hits 1450 pounds of pulling force.  During this whole time the piston is barely moving.  Then, all of a sudden, the situation changes and the machine is pulling with 1450 pounds of force, but the resistance to the pulling has suddenly dropped to 73.5 pounds.  So the piston will suddenly fly off in the direction of the pulling force.

Now relate that back to the story of the pump speeding up and the power consumption dropping when the cavitation starts.  Obviously they are not directly comparable situations, but at least you get a sense of the dynamics at play.

MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2013, 04:06:29 AM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2013, 01:41:20 PM »
Hi MH,

Cavitation is a shear event,, not a tensile force,, there is a difference with trying to pull the water apart as you have described and shearing the bonds.

Look at the cabinet on your wall,, those few little screws are holding that cabinet up because they can hold against the shear force,, the threads of the screws can not hold against the same amount of pull or tensile force,, so you could rip the cabinet off of the wall easier by pulling out than by trying to force it straight down.

Brake fade in cars,, apply all the pressure you want and it still does not help slow the car down,, thermal overload, and they get hotter faster if you keep using them,,,

Offline webby1

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2013, 03:51:56 PM »
I assumed that tinmans pumps were rotary or vane pumps due to the possibility of "lumpy" pumping medium,, so I am coming from that POV.

The modality of cavitation that MH is describing is indeed a valid method, but the drum heater is not "sucking" the water, as I view it, it is shearing the water liberating the dissolved gases and making the bubbles.

I also see that the bubble is a sort of magnifying device where the force is focused on to a small part of the total bubble while collapsing, just like a magnifying lens takes the sun and concentrates the potential of a large area onto a small area and you get to burn a piece of paper.

I think that I might very well of read what MH responded with, but I was running with the blinders of what "I" was thinking and seeing things as,, my bad.

Tinman,

Did you fix the over-speed problem??  I am not into electronics but I did read a few articles on how to reduce the problems,, I do not remember where those were but I was googling on universal motors when I found them.

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2013, 03:51:56 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2014, 04:01:10 AM »
@MH
Im not sure how it would work in the drum setup with the holes drilled in it,but with any other water pump,once it cavitates,the load come's off the motor-meaning it draws less current.This we seen all the time in the mine's,with both the water pump's and hydrolic power packs.We found this out when trying to figure out why the surge breakers kept tripping.So myself and the sparky sat there and would watch the amp meters on the motor's.The pump would cavitate ,and the current draw would drop.But when the pump grabed again while running flat out,it would draw a shit load of current in one hit,and throw the breakers.
So from my experiance,cavitation reduces the load on the prime mover. The same applies for boat.When in my youth,and racing formula 3 tunnel boat's,once you trimed up to high,the prop would cavitate,and RPM would go sky high. That was also the end of the prop aswell-high carbon S/S melted in a flash. Now that takes some heat.

But like i said at the start,i dont know if this would be the same in the drum setup?.

I haven't got far reading this thread yet, but it seems to have gone off topic where I am at, anyway about the cavitation.

How about this theory, the water gains most of it's heat before cavitation begins. The in-out measurements should begin when the device is first turned on and continue for some period after cavitation has been going.

I know what cavitation does when it happens with a prop on a boat, suddenly the engine screams with less load and the boat slows, usually an operator with any sense will reduce the applied power to stop it as quick as possible. In a boat the heat created before cavitation occurs is left behind, with the drum heater I'm guessing the heat remains local.

Cheers

P.S. most boat motors that have cavitation issues usually have an anti cavitation plate or surface which would seem to increase the water pressure around the propeller at a cost of more drag.



     
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 09:26:24 AM by Farmhand »

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2014, 04:29:04 AM »
Here's my view on O.U. it is short for over unity. THere seems to be an assertion by some that O.U.breaks the laws of thermodynamics.

1) The definition could be seen by some as being more energy out than is consumed in total.

2) Or it could mean more energy out than we put in.

Only the first case would violate any laws of whatever. The second case would not, a solar panel is included in the second case as is hydro and wind input, we don't blow the wind.

Now if we think of it as more out than we put in it is likely the case that some input is from out side the so called "closed system", meaning it is not really a "closed system".

Now also if we consider that in mostly all systems except the entire Universe, the dissipated energy leaves the system, so any system where the dissipated energy leaves the system is an "open system" and therefore not really subject to breaking the 2nd law or whatever, said same system could be also collecting energy from the environment in a similar way to the way the energy is released or another way,either by accident or a device built to do it. Case 2 is nothing special, Case 1 is the Law breaker.

I see only two possible definitions to choose from, i think we should vote on it in a poll, at least so we can see the viewpoints of the majority of posters.

1) The definition of O.U. is "More energy out than is consumed in total".

2) The definition of O.U. is "More energy out than we put in".

Even if we could say which meaning we are speaking of in any situation would help.

Cheers

Offline profitis

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2014, 07:56:44 AM »
@farmhand the definition of overunity is more work out than we put in without the need for a fuel-consuming temperature gradient,for the net gain.your 1st definition smashes the 1st law thermodynamics,unlikely to ever happen in a normal laboratory.your 2nd definition covers the 2nd law of thermodynamics(if by 'we' you mean humans) but doesnt exclude natural resources.

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2014, 07:56:44 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2014, 09:11:15 AM »
@farmhand the definition of overunity is more work out than we put in without the need for a fuel-consuming temperature gradient,for the net gain.your 1st definition smashes the 1st law thermodynamics,unlikely to ever happen in a normal laboratory.your 2nd definition covers the 2nd law of thermodynamics(if by 'we' you mean humans) but doesnt exclude natural resources.

Yes ok then if we consider that definition it means solar panels, wind and hydro turbines are all Over Unity. Do you agree ? As are some other regular things which produce an output without us providing some or any of the input.

No matter what the mechanism, in that definition if more energy is output then we input we have Over Unity. Also any excess energy from an unknown source is just that an unknown source, and until we determine that the unknown source is not man made in origin we cannot claim Over Unity. eg. Radio waves or ground disturbances ect.

If we consider man made radio waves as a source of energy not provided by us personally then do we also consider power taken from the grid without paying for it as energy not provided by us and legitimate Over Unity ? I say no, any energy that comes from a man made source should be excluded as they may not be available for ever.

Cheers

I still say we should have a Poll so we can see what the opinion of the majority of posters is. Many people claim they break the Laws of thermodynamics, Lenz's Law and even Ohms Law when they obviously do not. eg. Cold electricity would break Ohms law, if there was such a thing.

..


Offline vasik041

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2014, 09:43:38 AM »
Perhaps somebody find this book interesting

Free Energy Principles
https://www.dropbox.com/s/msza1mkalq06uw0/fe_principles.pdf



Offline Farmhand

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2014, 10:49:15 AM »
Perhaps somebody find this book interesting

Free Energy Principles
https://www.dropbox.com/s/msza1mkalq06uw0/fe_principles.pdf

Free energy is different to the definition of Over Unity. It also depends what you mean by "Free" exactly. I'll give an example.

Take a small community near a river, if we want to build a small hydro station for the community, even if we get all the materials for "free", let's say 'donated', then we still need to build and maintain and run the facility. And if everyone just does their bit with no money involved, it could be considered by some as totally "free" energy.

However if you consider free as in "cost" then all "Costs" as in to the environment, for materials gathering, maintenance and day to day running, possible continuing effect to others down stream or up ect. need be considered.

By the way some people just say "Tesla never claimed Over Unity from the many non Over Unity systems people claim he did for those systems" based mainly on power figures, such as with the "Magnifying Transmitter" people claim it was a free energy device but he clearly states it operates at less than 100% efficiency under Oath and has generators to feed it power and energy. Nothing sad about that at all, what is sad is people continually claiming almost everything Tesla did was Over Unity. He did have energy collectors and idea's for obtaining energy from the Niagara Falls for many years before it happened.

There should be no mistake the energy being tapped by a hydro plant is free, but it costs human effort to collect and distribute it.

Cheers

Offline profitis

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2014, 11:00:02 AM »
aha @farmhand.it seems that its a matter of wording as you say.for example cold fusion is a type of energy that is triggered by a 2nd law thermodynamics violation but then self-sustains on nuclear disintergration so its a hybrid natural resource/overunity combo that would require a more technical definition.the way to exclude natural resources completely necessitates a definition that covers a violation of either or both the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics strictly speaking so we need words like this: overunity is a physical violation of either the 1st or 2nd law thermodynamics,period.natural resources mustnt fall under any overunity banner and must be totaly excluded from the above definition.unknown energy sources must also be put in a seperate 'unknown' category and incubate until we know for certain if its  1)true overunity ie. a violation of either or both the 1st and 2nd laws thermodynamics or 2)a hybrid true overunity/natural resource e.g.cold fusion or 3)total natural resource.

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Offline Mr Summitville

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2014, 07:06:04 PM »
I have been searching for the definition of Over-Unity.
I just read a completely different thread on this site that went nowhere.
Now I read this thread and still no consensus.
I always related Over-Unity to efficiency.
Maybe that is wrong?
It appears to me that many think that
Over-Unity is equivalent to COP and not efficiency.

Where ...
COP =  Output Energy / Only Human Input Energy
Efficiency = Output Energy / Total Input Energy

And since C.O.P can be > 1 then man-made devices can be Over-Unity.
What is the agreed upon definition of "Over-Unity" at www.overunity.com?
Or is there no consensus, yet?

Or maybe just use the terms COP and Efficiency since they are clearly defined?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2014, 07:06:04 PM »

 

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