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Author Topic: Overunity (what is it?)  (Read 35372 times)

Online MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2013, 06:46:00 PM »
Tinman:

I am no expert at fluid dynamics but I can tell you what I think.

For starters, those video clips are not showing slow motion, they are clips of the drum being illuminated by a stroboscope to emulate slow motion.

I think that there are two things going on inside the drum.  The first is that you are seeing cavitation bubbles in the machined holes in the spinning inner drum.  This is due to the Bernoulli principle.  Effectively it means that the water is "boiling" at room temperature because of the intense suction it is experiencing inside the machined holes.  In my personal opinion this is just eye candy.  It doesn't really do anything and the cavitation is meaningless.  The cavitation bubbles are not "explosions," they are just the suction produced overcoming the tensile strength of the water.

The second thing that is going on is that the water in the narrow gap between the inner spinning drum and the fixed outer drum "jacket" is undergoing a shearing force between the two moving surfaces.  This shearing force is resisting the rotation of the inner drum and thus resisting the rotation of the shaft.  Therefore the motor driving the drum assembly at a certain angular velocity has to output a certain amount of torque to overcome this resistance.  Just for the sale of completeness, angular velocity x torque = power, and that power has to go somewhere.  The only place for it to go is in the heating up of the water.

The shearing of the water causing friction causing heat is independent from the cavitation.  Even though the two processes are taking place right next to each other, they are not related.

So my conclusion is that for this device, the thermal power output from the heated water will be slightly less than the mechanical power supplied by the electrical motor.  In other words, nothing special.  If the people promoting this system want to prove that it is doing something special, all that they have to do is show the electrical power into the drive motor and compare it to the thermal power output by the heated water.   This would be very easy to do.

MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2013, 06:46:00 PM »

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2013, 10:38:29 PM »
Quote
In my personal opinion this is just eye candy.  It doesn't really do
anything and the cavitation is meaningless.  The cavitation bubbles are not
"explosions," they are just the suction produced overcoming the tensile strength
of the water.

LOL

It appears you haven't even bothered to google the definition of "sonoluminescence" or "cavitation" for that matter.  For if you did, you might have noticed that breaking the "tensile strength" of water via the highly efficient means of employing a highly efficient electric motor, produces prodigious gains!  That the effect is "nuclear" without producing negative radiation is being shown in experiments around the world!

First, the humble crustacean version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXK2G2AzMTU

A "slightly" more complex experiment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ 

And another example of many easily found demonstrations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g7Sf2OaVIk

Quote
If the people promoting this system want to prove that it is doing something
special, all that they have to do is show the electrical power into the drive
motor and compare it to the thermal power output by the heated water. 
 This would be very easy to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw&list=PL5733824E8EC41CDA

Apparently NASA was impressed, they donated advanced bearing systems in exchange for sharing info.  They are installing these as "scale free heating" systems for major players around the world.....etc...etc...So it seems clear that Griggs is playing ball and getting rich in bypassing the consumer market and focusing on the corporate dollar.

Nope.  Nothing to see here.  NASA and major corporations love to overspend for "eye candy".  LOL

So, as one can see, cavitation holds much promise, the effect is real.  A five minute cursory google search reveals the hilarity of your assertions. 

Imagine what hours of study might reveal....

"A mind too open can't keep anything in.  A mind too closed, can't let anything in."
 

 
TS

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Online MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2013, 11:33:58 PM »
TS:

I know what sonoluminance and cavitation are.  There is even "Certs breath mint" luminance.  Is your assertion that the drum heater is outputting more heat power than mechanical power in?  And it's due to the cavitation?  If that's it or if you mean something else please explain the process.  I know the "old" pistol shrimp clip, thanks for the new one.  That's just COE in action.  Can you see why?

I only skimmed through the synthetic radioactivity clip because it was too long.  The implosive cavitation clip was cool.  But again, what's the point?  If you look at a bubble cavitation event, do you see something special?

Quote
Apparently NASA was impressed, they donated advanced bearing systems in exchange for sharing info.  They are installing these as "scale free heating" systems for major players around the world.....etc...

Great for them.  Again, this is a mechanical direct to thermal water heater.  It may fill certain niches for fast hot water on demand where there is plenty of mechanical energy readily available.  But is it special?  You seem to think so but I can't see it.

Quote
So, as one can see, cavitation holds much promise, the effect is real.

I don't want to beat a horse to death, but I would love it if you could elaborate.   Let me give you some thoughts about cavitation and ships.  They don't like it because it damages their propellers and reduces the efficiency of the propeller.  It also produces noise so the Navy hates cavitation.  In that clip with the the rotating cylinder water heater, the cavitation inside each machined hole is of no use.  In fact, just like for a ship propeller you loose thrust and therefore power, the cavitation inside the machined holes in the rotating drum has similar negative effects.  The cavitation is causing water hammering inside each machined hole, and lots of that water hammering power is going into the rotating metal drum and traveling through it like sound waves.  That's probably fatiguing the metal and stressing the bearings.  Think of it, you look at the drum water heater and you can hear the sound of the continuous cavitation going on inside.  That's just wasted power that is being burnt off inside the drum.  In this particular case, it eventually becomes heat anyways, but it is still an unwanted "disturbance" to the smooth operation of the drum water heater.  In my opinion, it's just for show, like a prop on a movie set.

Just to add a thought.  There may also be a legitimate reason for the machined holes.  They may help to circulate the water or something.  But the cavitation events inside each machined hole don't create energy.  Since energy is the focus here, my contention is that cavitation may be interesting and may have certain niche applications, but there is nothing with respect to energy that cavitation brings to the table.

MileHigh

Online MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2013, 11:58:50 PM »
I went back to the Hydro Dynamics web site:

Quote
•The heart of the technology is a specialized rotor
•The rotor has dead-ended cavities
•Spinning creates low pressure at the cavity bottoms
•The low pressure zones collapse releasing shockwaves

•Cavitation is created in the cavities, not on metal surfaces. •The Cavitation is controlled, therefore there is no damage.
The SPR technology represents a new and innovative way to apply energy to liquids.

So they are saying that they want the cavitation events to produce heat.  I'll take them at their word, they have to produce heat one way or the other.

In essence, they are stating that the rotor produces more friction, requiring more torque, producing more heat.  It sounds perfectly legitimate and I could very well be dead wrong when I called the machined holes "props."  It's a trick to get the drum to produce more heat, almost like "adding sandpaper" to the drum.   So if you can produce more heat in a smaller drum size that's perfectly legitimate.  But they don't claim more heat produced than normal, which is what one would expect for a legit company.

I was erroneously under the impression that Hydro Dynamics Inc. was claiming over unity.  I got mixed up between them and that old fire station clip.  So it's all legit looking but no over unity.

MileHigh


Offline telecom

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2013, 02:23:48 AM »
Hi
in the you tube video they actually are talking about the overunity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjGSXKSLpfY

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2013, 02:23:48 AM »
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Online MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2013, 04:25:25 AM »
Telecom:

Thanks I watched that clip.  So it turns out that the company Hydro Dynamics Inc. is indeed the same company that did the fire station installation.  In the clip that you linked to the visiting scientist says that they didn't do proper scientific measurements, etc, etc.  That clip also looks quite old, I am guessing at least eight years old.

I think that I figured the story out now.  Note on the current Hydro Dynamics web site they mention nothing, zero, nada about excess heat production and over unity.  Possibly somewhere down the line over the last 10 years they did legitimate scientific measurements and finally saw that there was no over unity to their satisfaction.  More importantly, they came across legitimate industrial applications for their drum-based mechanical water heater system.  Great for them, they are now selling their systems into legitimate industrial applications.

The last thing that the people at Hydro Dynamics want now is a crowd that believes that they have an over unity device hanging on and generating free energy Internet buzz over them.  That would hurt their business.

They have evolved into a real company and that's fantastic.  Any claims of over unity are now ancient history for them, they are way past that.  So the story has a happy ending.

MileHigh

Online MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2013, 04:54:29 AM »
Just to finish off this discussion let's discuss that famous cavitation bubble that produces sonoluminesence.  The amazing pistol shrimp and all that jazz.  There is this belief out there that it's some kind of a source of energy.  Nothing could be further than the truth so let's look at it.

Let's start off with magnets.   You have two magnets stuck together on your bench top.  You pull them apart and place them six inches away from each other.  You may not realize it but you have just put energy into the magnet system.  There is literally a certain tangible amount of energy now in that system that wasn't there before.

You think that's crazy?  Here is a crazy thought experiment:  You spread peanuts still in their shells on your bench.  Then you carefully place neo magnets in among the peanuts so that they stay in place and don't move.  Then you bang the bench top with your fist a few times and all of a sudden *smash*, all of the neo magnets come crashing together.  Some of the peanut shells get busted and liberate the peanuts.

So where did the energy come from to bust the peanut shells open?  The energy came from the positions of the neo magnets on your bench top.  When the neo magnets are on your desktop and spread out that represents a high energy state.  When they all come crashing together, then once the crash is over that represents a low energy state.

Where does the energy come from to create the high energy state, the energy that eventually is used to smash the peanut shells?  It comes from your arm when you pull the neos apart again and place them on the table such that they remain separated from each other.

There is no "energy from the neo magnets" that smashes the peanut shells.  You put energy into the system when you pulled the neo magnets apart (force x displacement = energy).  The energy to smash the peanut shells comes from you, it doesn't come from the magnets at all.

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2013, 04:54:29 AM »
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Online MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2013, 05:18:57 AM »
So let's look at the cavitation bubble in the same manner.

The cavitation bubble is formed by a strong suction, or negative pressure, on the water.  It takes work (force x displacement) to pull the water apart and actually make the cavitation bubble.

That's just like pulling two magnets apart.  So when you are looking at a cavitation bubble for the brief time it is in existence, the bubble itself represents a higher energy state.  Just the fact that the bubble exists means that there is now more energy in the system.

You can't forget that an outside energy source did the work to create the cavitation bubble.

Then when the cavitation bubble collapses it's just like when the magnets all smash together and break some of the peanut shells.

So, you know that looking at a cavitation bubble means that there is energy stored in the system.

The cavitation bubble collapses ->  the stored energy in the bubble now has just been transformed into kinetic energy of the moving water. ->  This is like all of the moving neo magnets at the instant before they crash together.

The moving water "crashes into itself" when the bubble has completely collapsed ->  This is like imagining all of the moving neo magnets hit each other at the same time.

What happens to the kinetic energy in the moving water when it crashes into itself?  It has to go somewhere.

Certainly some of the energy in the moving water becomes a shockwave that travels through the water.  So some of the kinetic energy becomes sound energy that continues flowing through the water.

Some of the energy simply becomes heat.  But since this heat is all contained within a microscopic volume at the very center of the former bubble, the temperature has to get very high simply to respect the conservation of energy.  The temperature gets so high that some of the heat is radiated away as visible light.  Some of the heat heats the water.  It's all just the conservation of energy in action.

Kinetic energy of the moving water gets transformed into sound energy (shockwave) and heat energy (various wavelengths of EM energy including visible light, and the heating of the water itself)

The entire process of sonoluminescence when a tiny cavitation bubble collapses in on itself is just an ordinary process where energy transforms from one form to another form to another form.   The energy is supplied by an outside source.

So there is no pot of gold associated with sonoluminesence or the pistol shrimp.

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2013, 08:16:01 AM »
 
Quote
So there is no pot of gold associated with sonoluminesence or the pistol
shrimp.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that you didn't choose the user name, "MileHigh" because you live in Denver.
 
TS

Online MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2013, 08:34:40 AM »
TS:

Nice little implicit play on words.... but you are not responding to the points made.

The name just popped into my head.  The first thing I thought of after it popped into my head was Denver.  The second thing I thought about was the airplane scene at the end of the movie Emmanuelle.  Go figure.

MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2013, 08:34:40 AM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2013, 01:22:44 PM »
Don't know the movie off-hand,,

Anyway,, a shear event does not meet your example, the system itself has the potential to start with and an outside force pushes the conditions over the top and destabilizes the system, sure the force came from somewhere, but not all of it needed to come from the input that pushed it over the top.

Same thing with magnetic fields,, they are only so strong and they actually can be sheared off into bubbles.

Offline ramset

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2013, 02:43:48 PM »
Piezo Nuclear reactions ,that's a brand new word for the planet ,maybe they didn't teach this in your school book MH ?{ why would they?]
 
and its caused By sound ?
 
 
 
The Soundwaves can cause a cascading chain reaction with tempertures easily reaching millions of degrees!
 
There is definately something to see here
the future of power on Planet earth [once all the "Mongers" lay down]
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ
 
Thx
Chet


Offline tiquila77

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2013, 04:38:29 PM »
Hello guys, I have perfected a novel magnetic gate that I call "Ouroboros"(the snake biting its tail). The Ouroboros has the following characteristics: (1) It has a "sticky point" at its exit; (2) Its magnetic forces are uniform from its entrance to its exit; (3) When closed loop, its sticky point vanishes. Now from its mathematical model, it has a power-to-weight ratio of 2horse-power per kilogram. A sample of 9.37kg has a power of 21horse-power, a torque of 11newton-meter, and a speed of 13920 rev/min...

Offline tiquila77

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2013, 04:53:17 PM »
From 1995  till this year, I worked on a particular design, the prototype of which I built 3 months ago; although I succeeded in producing asymetrical magnetic field around the rotor, the design didnt work. Why? The torque was far lesser than the moment of inertia of the rotor. Early this year, I came across the U.S patent 5455474; and when I applied the method I used to produce asymetrical magnetic field in the other design, it worked well. The advantage of the new design is that I could easily adjust the torque arm, something I couldnt do in the first design. I want to approach NEST to see if they could help me...

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Online MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2013, 05:03:10 PM »
Webby1:

I really don't know what you mean by "pushes the conditions over the top."  You seem to be implying that the rotating drum plus cavitation system will "take on a life of its own" after a certain input power threshold and start to produce over unity in the form of more thermal heat power out than mechanical power in.  That's not going to happen.  It's a huge mistake to just assume that "cavitation" is some mechanism to get over unity because it's not.

In fact there is a sobering point that I forgot to mention.  If the motor driving the drum is 95% efficient well there is a 5% loss right there from the get-go.   So a "dumb" water heater with a controller and a big resistive heating element is more efficient on paper and it's essentially zero maintenance.

Chet:

Quote
The Soundwaves can cause a cascading chain reaction with tempertures easily reaching millions of degrees!

I am assuming that you are referring to the pistol shrimp and the sonoluminesence.  I will repeat that it's nothing more than the conservation of energy in action.  You take a certain amount of heat energy and you put it into a volume of water.  As the volume size decreases then the temperature must increase to hold the same amount of energy.  If the volume is really minuscule then the temperature can indeed reach millions of degrees.  It really doesn't mean anything in the searching for over unity scheme of things.

As far as the clip goes, I only glanced at it.  Perhaps it's somewhat akin to reading about a new "breakthrough" in solar cell efficiency every two weeks.  That's 26 "breakthroughs" a year, how many actually get into production?  If you put radioactive materials in a fluid with cavitation going on, perhaps the microscopic water hammer effects will induce nuclear reactions, I don't know.  Will there ever be a commercial "fission reactor with a cavitation catalyst assist" in our future?  I don't know the answer to that one.  Cavitation in this case is just part of the process, the energy is still coming from the nuclear materials.

I hope that you try to digest my little treatise about the cavitation bubbles and the sonoluminesence.  There is nothing magical about the pistol shrimp.  Certainly it's remarkable how it developed a mechanism to ccock it's muscles/ligaments/claw to create the effect it creates, but it's COE and all fully understandable.  Look at kangaroos, when they are running full speed their long ligaments act like elastic bands that store and release energy.  That's also remarkable.  Then there is that flagellar motor that has people going a bit crazy and talking about the big guy that may be in the sky, that's also remarkable.

MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2013, 05:03:10 PM »

 

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