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Author Topic: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling  (Read 18804 times)

Offline profitis

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2013, 03:23:10 PM »
@libre..a fridge we have to plug in the wall,a nano silica shell we dont have to plug in the wall,its free refrigeration with no need for a temperature difference to get the free refrigeration,its a kelvin violation whichever way you look at it.up-conversion where ambient is concerned is a frighteningly blatant decrease of entropy in total.whats to prevent me from shoving a solar panel onto an ambient up-conversion device in a isothermal box,nothing.

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Offline profitis

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2013, 03:36:31 PM »
@das yes there are discrepencies regarding the expansion and contraction of gases and phase changes,eg the proell effect.ideal gas behaviour as depicted by text-books is just that,an ideal.in reality we have other entropy changes happening in gases beside plain expansion/contraction,we have molecular association,liquefication,crystallization to take into account,these may open loopholes through the 2nd law under certain circumstances indeed.

Offline sparks

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2013, 03:53:37 PM »
  When an electron falls towards the more massive oppositely charged proton it experiences two accelerating forces.   Gravity and electrical.
Both forces are accelerating forces.   What was professed by Einstein is simply that an increase in velocity makes the mass to energy relationship intrinsic to the particle tip one way or the other.   An accelerating force will increase the velocity of the particle.  The particle will emit photons of light and increase in mass.  The wavelength of the emitted photon upon acceleration is dependent upon the mass/velocity before experiencing the accelerating force.   The old inertia needs to go.  The way it goes is in the form of electromagnetic radiation.     The bound electron weighs more than the unbound electron.  It is more massive and at a constant velocity.  There is absolutely no reason why an electron moving at constant velocity has to emit photons even if it's constant velocity vector is angular relative to the nucleus.    So what we have is a very massive electron inside the atom and when it is outside the atom not so massive.   Accordingly if e=mc2.  when we ionize monatomic hydrogen the mass to radiated photons e will follow this equation.  This ionization event will release the original mass gained during atomic synthesis a long long long time ago.  Or maybe not that long ago like 8 seconds ago 92 million miles away in the big space plasma condensor thingy in the sky.

Offline profitis

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2013, 05:05:18 PM »
interesting@sparks,,giving clues to the secrets of cold 'fusion'perhaps where electrons are being ripped apart from hydrogen and shoved back on all the time..almost in seperate 'run' stages.

Offline LibreEnergia

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2013, 01:13:48 AM »
  When an electron falls towards the more massive oppositely charged proton it experiences two accelerating forces.   Gravity and electrical.
Both forces are accelerating forces.   What was professed by Einstein is simply that an increase in velocity makes the mass to energy relationship intrinsic to the particle tip one way or the other.   An accelerating force will increase the velocity of the particle.  The particle will emit photons of light and increase in mass.  The wavelength of the emitted photon upon acceleration is dependent upon the mass/velocity before experiencing the accelerating force.   The old inertia needs to go.  The way it goes is in the form of electromagnetic radiation.     The bound electron weighs more than the unbound electron.  It is more massive and at a constant velocity.  There is absolutely no reason why an electron moving at constant velocity has to emit photons even if it's constant velocity vector is angular relative to the nucleus.    So what we have is a very massive electron inside the atom and when it is outside the atom not so massive.   Accordingly if e=mc2.  when we ionize monatomic hydrogen the mass to radiated photons e will follow this equation.  This ionization event will release the original mass gained during atomic synthesis a long long long time ago.  Or maybe not that long ago like 8 seconds ago 92 million miles away in the big space plasma condensor thingy in the sky.


I'm left wondering if you just make this stuff up or perhaps have read a little bit about ionization and binding energies without fully comprehending it ?

You conclusions about ionization, binding energies and mass changes is in exact contradiction to generally a accepted theory. I guess with a theoretical underpinning such as that,  'free energy' shows up everywhere.

So much so that nothing can actually exist. as soon as mass comes into existence it is inexplicably destroyed in a proverbial puff of smoke. Were we to be having this conversation in that bizarre and exciting universe you'd be arguing the toss for the existence of 'free mass'  rather than free energy I'd bet.

I'd advise you to have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_energy . You'll realise your conjectures are completely false.

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2013, 01:13:48 AM »
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Offline sparks

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2013, 05:22:21 AM »
   So an electron experiencing an ACCELERATING force losses mass?   Let me get this straight.   The velocity of a free electron is 1 meter per second.    The electron experiences an accelerating force and reaches a velocity of 100,000 meters per second.   It is immune to any mass gain? 

Offline LibreEnergia

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2013, 06:07:40 AM »
   So an electron experiencing an ACCELERATING force losses mass?   So let me get this straight.   The velocity of a free electron is 1 meter per second.    The electron experiences an accelerating force and reaches a velocity of 100,000 meters per second.   It is immune to any mass gain?

No, as you say it gains mass. However I was referring to your statement

"This ionization event will release the original mass gained during atomic synthesis a long long long time ago.. etc"

Ionization requires energy INPUT,  An electron bound to a nucleus has lower mass compared to when it is ionized, the exact opposite of what you are implying.

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2013, 06:07:40 AM »
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Offline sparks

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2013, 07:02:27 AM »
No, as you say it gains mass. However I was referring to your statement

"This ionization event will release the original mass gained during atomic synthesis a long long long time ago.. etc"

Ionization requires energy INPUT,  An electron bound to a nucleus has lower mass compared to when it is ionized, the exact opposite of what you are implying.
Ionization requires cancellation of the binding force only.  Has nothing to do with the electron mass gain.  The peculiar motion of the electron will determine the mass of the electron.  Simply because it is sharing a common velocity with the core does not alter it's mass.    This whole concept of electron gain in velocity simply because it is bound is horseshit.  It is the equivalent of taking a bunch of pool balls laying on a table and placing the rack on them and suddenly the pool balls start moving all on their own.

Offline LibreEnergia

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2013, 07:22:42 AM »
Ionization requires cancellation of the binding force only.  Has nothing to do with the electron mass gain.

So I take it you do not agree that bound particles have lower mass compared to when they are unbound as is generally accepted.?

In which case your paradigm will certainly give rise to free energy effects. Good luck developing a comprehensive theory based on that, but I can see a few holes developing already.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2013, 02:33:27 PM »
You can imagine the cold object as if it were a spring when you compress a spring you store a specific amount of energy inside it by releasing it you can get the energy which you've stored.

By extracting 1MJ of heat from a liquid it will be very cold and will contract then it will cool the surrounding environment and will absorb 1MJ of heat and expand producing 1MJ of mechanical energy we can use this mechanical energy (the energy of expansion) to cool it again for free.

And this is the main idea of the Fridge that powers itself this type of fridge  can generate a huge amount of cold forever to cool any thing.

The more we'll consume the coldness from the cold liquid the more it'll expand and produce mechanical energy.
I like this idea. However, the process of cooling and heating mass also takes into account the potential energy found in expansion and contraction. If you spend 1MJ to compress a steel spring. Now, put that compressed spring into a melting oven. The spring loose tension, and ask where the input energy goes. Is the 1MJ input energy lost or destroyed? No. As the spring loose tension, it release heat that correspond to the energy that compressed it.


The similar applies to heating an cooling a fluid. Parts of the energy goes to cooling it, and the rest goes to contracting it. To get back all the input energy, you must also get back the kinetic energy in the expansion during heating.


For a gasoline engiune, heat is a bi-product that is waste. The engine runs because of expansion of the gasous fluid. The expansion is caused by heat, but it isn't the heat that runs the engine. Heat is waste.

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2013, 02:33:27 PM »
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Offline sparks

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2013, 03:41:36 PM »
   What I suspect is that an electron that is bound in a 1s orbital  fall resulted  in an electrically charged particle of increased velocity and mass than before it was accelerated.   This formed hydrogen.  ( Not every electron drop necessarily resulted in this structuring upon hydrogen synthesis but obviously some did or we wouldn't have the persistence of  hydrogen).   An electrically charged particle will create a reaction in the magnetic field which is flowing from somewhere to the particle and going somewhere.  This allows the particle to remain at a constant velocity and mass thousands of orders over that of the free state electron: due to the magnetic field relativity of the electron current compared to the magnetic dipole moments produced by the proton.    The electron is still trying to fall due to what was once the accelerating force field but this force is countered by the electron current effects.   This only happens on the synthesis of monatomic hydrogen in a positive plasma or electron deprived portion of space.
  Thermal dynamics is a special case of physics limited to the molecular jitter if you will.  It is archaic science developed for steam locomotive engineers to figure out how much coal they needed to get a train from point a to point b.

Offline profitis

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2013, 05:24:42 PM »
yes @sparks heat is jitter as you put it,vibration,phonons equivelant of photons which are also a a type of vibration package.if we can upconvert  photons vibrations with no expediture of energy then libre owes us an explanation as to why we cant 'upconvert' phonon vibrations,which have an infrared frequency,with no expenditure of energy.heat can and will upconvert(concentrate)to higher temps(higher infrared)at no expense to us humans other than the intelligent design of the upconverting device(information is power,literaly),giving us ability to circumvent kelvins vibrational jitter dictat.

Offline sparks

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2013, 08:08:16 AM »
      Photon blue-shifting happens all the time and is well understood as compton inverse scattering.  The opposite of that happens every time you turn on a black light and look at freaky paintings that appear to glow in the dark.   Now quartz is an interesting crystal.   It red shifts far-infrared into near infrared that is really good at plucking water strings.  What if we red-shift near infrared into microwaves using a crystal.  Then we can get some rf heating effects going on.   Oops.  1st law violation.  BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

Offline LibreEnergia

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2013, 09:24:52 AM »
Thermal dynamics is a special case of physics limited to the molecular jitter if you will.  It is archaic science developed for steam locomotive engineers to figure out how much coal they needed to get a train from point a to point b.

Totally incorrect to say that. Certainly classical thermodynamics was developed during the steam era, but thermodynamics did not stand still as a discipline as the understanding of atomic structure improved. The theoretical framework expanded to encompass that new knowledge Notably as statistical mechanics and now quantum thermodynamics.

Nothing in in the new versions of thermodynamics has ever given rise to physical behaviour either predicted OR observed that overturned the initial conclusions developed long ago.

All the laws as they stood then and now are still valid.



Offline profitis

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2013, 02:39:22 PM »
@libre ..the evidence is to the contrary..they may still be officialy valid,but in reality we see different

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Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2013, 02:39:22 PM »

 

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