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Author Topic: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap  (Read 145631 times)

Offline woopy

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2013, 11:29:51 PM »
Bravo Conrad

And of course  thank's very much to Lasersaber for sharing as usual

nice and very good job

i am following this thread with great attention

As per Mag ,  skywatcher  , Gyula , wattsup ,. and others ,  ..., this is remaining me a lot of   very valuable thinking

good luck at all

Laurent

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline totoalas

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2013, 11:50:19 PM »
Another way is to increase the magnets with less space N S  and with two coil drivers  ...... 
Mine does not work on caps alone but with multiple source   back emf   output to a double jt  one supplying battery back to source battery  and one to wall outlet / solar / all in parallel......   @200 mA  and 546 rpm been running 24/7  with wall power off in the evening / solar on in the morning   //// used also earth ground in the circuit bedini ssg
The important is the coil to make as generator coils   ..... best design so far is with skycollection pancake with choke in the middle....  still looking for the ultimate design
if there is a cap/battery design in the market now ,   why not a cap coil /choke rolled into one lined up in parallel to the shaft......  lots of ideas
happy experimenting
totoalas
 


Offline Farmhand

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2013, 01:11:28 AM »
I bet the rotor can be stopped with minimal force and the motor would be incapable of driving any substantial load, such as a useful output.

Believe it or not motors usually drive loads with a shaft. The less input and output power a device has the less inherent losses are involved so efficiency is better and as well the less output such a device can produce, I see no output so the efficiency is zero.. To calculate efficiency the "useful"output needs to be considered in relation to the input.

A spinning rotor is not output unless the rotational energy is tapped for a useful and intended purpose.

This is efforts toward perpetual motion, or self running. Which has it's own merits i'll admit.

I think all who can should replicate this setup so that as many people as possible have rotors spinning from pre charged capacitors that run down over time and produce no output.
It's a very important endeavor. This reminds me of the RomeroUK hype. I don't get it what is the point. And where is the output.

Please note I have not abused anyone. I think my questions are valid. But feel free to ignore me.  :D

Cheers

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2013, 02:04:57 AM »
The setup is like taking advantage of "dielectric absorption" of the electrolytic capacitor. The test to show it would be to remove the capacitor from the device entirely while it is running (the device would stop), as expected but that's not the point. Then measure the voltage of the capacitor, then short the capacitor terminals briefly, then measure how much voltage the capacitor regains. If a device is made to use a very small amount of energy it can be made to run from the dielectric absorption effect of the regaining of voltage. And that would have nothing to do with the motor or it's design except that it uses a minute amount of input and is not loaded. The dielectric absorption effect can be enhanced by prior charging of the capacitor and leaving it charged over time, then when shorted all the energy is not released at once and energy is released slowly over time from the capacitor, energy which was put there by charging previously.

Wiki page on Dielectric Absorption.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption

Unless the capacitor used in the video is taken from the device and tested for dielectric absorption it can't be ruled out. I have capacitors that regain up to 10 volts typically more like 3 to 5 volts. THe effect is real and the energy is real and usable but it is energy that is previously input.

I think the dielectric absorption effect is used in one of his other video's as well possibly more, I'm not able to say since I haven't watched all his video's.

Cheers

Oh and LaserSaber should feel under no obligation to do the test just because I mentioned it. If the test is done it should be done for the sake of finding out if it is a factor and no other reason.

Another way to test the cap is to have it ready to start, then just short the cap very briefly, like with the swipe or quick touch of a wire and observe the voltage regained with successive shorts, then calculate the potential energy remaining in the capacitor after each of a few shorting events and add it all together.

..


Offline e2matrix

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2013, 02:22:49 AM »
Well Farmhand you could at least say it's an extremely efficient motor to run off such a small power source.   Just imagine a motor like that built about 100 times bigger running off let's say a 1 Farad cap.   Seems like that might have some torque.   Just speculating here but at the least it seems like it is a design that makes extremely good use of what little power is available.    And when things get really really efficient then we may be just a hair width away from overunity  ;)
As for dielectric absorption I don't think that's it.   I've hooked up a couple dozen big electrolytic caps that ranged for 1000 uf to 50,000 uf and 16 volt to 400 volt.   All together they lit one small 5mm LED for just a blink.   The voltage may be there but very very little current.   

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2013, 02:22:49 AM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2013, 04:05:28 AM »
@all

If I look at this down the road, knowing how builds progress with time, I would say that what the EZ motor should include into its initial design right now is a way for the rotor shaft to be extended above its present level, via a shaft coupling, so that you can add some magnets onto the rising part of that shaft. Then you put coils around those magnets so that the extended level would now be a real secondary output.

Yes there will be some drag but the fact that the EZ rotor is pushing against some straw drag, it may be enough to push it over the top. hehehe

What I mean by the above is shown by an OU member @handyguy1.

He is just oscillating his rotor back and forth, but the rotor magnets are right on the shaft and the winding is crossing it to get all the impress possible. So think of the handguy1 secondary would be mounted vertical onto the EZ motor and the magnet would simply turn in one direction cutting the impress across an output coil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HHQzWyLTBI
The thread is here;
http://www.overunity.com/3865/power-ratio-over-one/#.UaP5WpxqN2U

The reason I am bringing this up is because the EZ motor has its mag/cascading coil combo on the exterior of a given radius (would remain to be seen if the radius can be a variable) and the handyguy1 motor has its magnets on the shaft at the minimal radius and both of these together now give you maximum leverage delta to make that extra few volts that the EZ motor should be able to muster up given the straw drag. That's what I would call working smart to hunt for an OU situation. That type of delta in leverage would be additive in favor of the drive. So the EZ motor would be a simple drive motor and the handyguy1 type would be your output.

I think this shows how the Romero wheel was doomed from the start because the drive coils and the output coils shared the same radius thus having zero leverage delta. So they should use the Romero wheel in cascading mode like the EZ motor and use a handyguy1 type off the center shaft. There is no real other way. You will always have a fixed maximum torque but you can always vary the leverage point or in drag terms where you want the torque/drag battle to occur.

wattsup

PS: Forgot another reason for the handyguy1 type is that it is showing output at such low swing cycles.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2013, 08:44:00 AM »
Well Farmhand you could at least say it's an extremely efficient motor to run off such a small power source.   Just imagine a motor like that built about 100 times bigger running off let's say a 1 Farad cap.   Seems like that might have some torque.   Just speculating here but at the least it seems like it is a design that makes extremely good use of what little power is available.    And when things get really really efficient then we may be just a hair width away from overunity  ;)
As for dielectric absorption I don't think that's it.   I've hooked up a couple dozen big electrolytic caps that ranged for 1000 uf to 50,000 uf and 16 volt to 400 volt.   All together they lit one small 5mm LED for just a blink.   The voltage may be there but very very little current.

Then you didn't do it right, the low loss capacitor needs to be pre-charged to it's rated voltage and left for some time charged, then just after shorting or draining in use the dielectric absorption effect will happen, some capacitors do it better than others, but the effect is real, no matter if you don't see it happen much or not. Your comment is a perfect example of disregarding a valid factor because it doesn't fit with the desired assessment of what is seen. If a large electrolytic capacitor is used then there is every chance the dielectric absorption effect is at play to some degree.

Quote
it can be as much as 15% for electrolytic capacitors

The voltage and charge is real enough to shock a person.

Quote
The voltage at the terminals generated by the dielectric absorption may possibly cause problems in the function of an electronic circuit or can be a safety risk to personnel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption

Once again I'll say I see usable amounts of dielectric absorption in some of my caps, but it isn't free, not one bit.

What is the load it is driving ? how much wind drag does it overcome ? What is the output that shows it makes good use of the input power from the cap ?

If no useful output efficiency is nil, nada.

I admit I didn't watch much when I seen just a rotor spinning and could not see any use for it.

What load does it drive ? What is it's intended function.

When someone build one and tests what it can do as far as powering loads then measures efficiency, there will be figures to judge its performance.

Any electrical device can run from a cap. The amount it draws will determine the length of run time.

I wonder how long Lidmotor's little "Penny" motor could run from that cap, or an LED with an appropriate current limiting resistor.

I'm not saying it doesn't turn the rotor with very little power, I'm seeing it does and probably the power consumption is so small that dielectric absorption could be a factor for it running so long. That's all. I'm also saying I don't see a spinning rotor as output as such, but the weight of the rotor and it's acceleration rate can show the torque applied to it.

The wind resistance reduces dramatically with less speed and less protrusions from the rotor.

Maybe I'll waste some time and see how long I can make a rotor spin from the charge in a cap.

To be competitive we need to know some things.

1) how much does the rotor weigh ?
2) how much charge is in the capacitor to start ?
3) how fast does he spin it at first to get it going ?
4) how fast does it spin on average under power ?
5) what is the brand and make/size of the capacitor he uses ?
6) what is the average continuous power draw of the circuit from the capacitor ?

Or we could just do what works to make it look good. If I get board which is rare, I might try it.

Is he using one coil to charge a cap for the next, if so it's a version or variation of the resonant charging circuit in Tesla's "IGNITER FOR GAS ENGINES" patent.
The principal which I showed a working motor using just recently. And is now a motor rated to 50 or 60 Watts max but is very useful at even 5 Watts or less.

The principal of Tesla's that I showed covers a cascade of two coils as in a regular resonant charging circuit as well as multiple coils in the same way which is just an extension of the basic circuit and any other iteration using the same principal in a pulse motor.

If it is that principal he is using it's a good idea and I wish him well with the research. If not the principal he's using then I still wish him well.

But the dielectric absorption effect can play a real part, especially if one is aware of it and how to maximize the effect.

I'm biased towards LaserSabre because he gets jollies from tricking people. And allows people to spread rumors his devices are OU when they are not and he does little to set the record straight.

I also understand he didn't link the video and start the thread.

Cheers


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2013, 08:44:00 AM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2013, 09:51:51 AM »
...........
What relays did you get those coils from?  I like those.  ;)
Mags

Most parts of this relay (white coil) can be taken off with a pair of tongs. Then one has to drill into that little cross at the back side to get the metal part off.

If you want such coils look through the relays you can find, you want a relay with high DC resistance (which means very many turns of wire on the coil).

Some relays are in a plastic housing which I open with a fine hack saw (black coil). I also had to take off metal parts with the fine hack saw to get at the black coil.

The relay coils have nice metal cores which you can use or take out, depending on the experiment.

There is the question of using a core or not. I found that an air core (no core) shows interesting effects, again when low power draw is the goal.

Some experimenters want pulse motor coils with very little DC resistance (thick wire, few turns). I found that coils with high DC resistance (many turns of wire, thin wire) show some interesting effects in pulse motors (especially if one wants low power draw).

But these are my empiric observations based on crude experiments and crude contraptions.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2013, 10:07:14 AM »

If no useful output efficiency is nil, nada.   ......

I admit I didn't watch much when I seen just a rotor spinning and could not see any use for it.   ......

What load does it drive ? What is it's intended function.   .......

When someone build one and tests what it can do as far as powering loads then measures efficiency, there will be figures to judge its performance. ....

I wonder how long Lidmotor's little "Penny" motor could run from that cap, or an LED with an appropriate current limiting resistor.  .....

Or we could just do what works to make it look good. If I get board which is rare, I might try it.  .....

Cheers

May be it is all just a nice hobby. I see it like that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_ludens

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2013, 08:56:06 PM »
I could do a first test with my LaserSaber 3D-printed motor replication (version with six coils and six magnets on the rotor, all magnets have N towards the coils, drive coil pushes).

Instead of a Reed switch I use 5 coils in series as a trigger and only one coil as drive coil. Very strange way to do it, but it worked fairly well. (The other way round, 5 drive coils and 1 trigger coil also worked, but not so well.) Each coil has about 90 Ohm DC resistance.

See the circuit with a 2SK170 transistor as switching element. It still worked with 0.3 Volt supply Volatge (the mA draw and the rpm are written on the circuit).

I attach a strange scope shot (see the circuit for the attachment points of CH1 and CH2). May be the experts can tell me what is going on. My interpretation: the current is not strong enough to drive the scope electronics reliably? The capacitance of the probe and the 1 MOhm resistance of the probe create strange artefacts?

The power draw is higher than I expected, the motor stops quickly on the 1000 µF electrolytic capacitor.

I will try 3 trigger coils and 3 drive coils and also 6 drive coils with a Reed switch, but it will take time.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2013, 08:56:06 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2013, 11:36:24 PM »
Hi Conrad,

Very nice job!

I think your scope was set to a vertical scale of 1 V/DIV for both channels and time scale is 20msec/DIV, right?
It looks like the JFET works as an oscillator whenever the induced trigger voltage is just good for the JFET to work as an amplifier (both the drain and the gate have inductive reactance from the coils). You can test how the real gate-source voltage changes i.e what AC voltage the 5 series coils provide if you disconnect the drive coil wire from the drain and push the rotor by hand to the approximate RPM it runs with when the 0,5V supply voltage was connected, under this condition the JFET cannot oscillate.

(You surely know that the 2SK170 conducts with its IDSS drain-source current (so it has the maximum transconductance) whenever the voltage between its gate-source is zero. And this kind of JFET cannot conduct when the gate-source voltage is higher i.e. more negative than the -0.2V to -1.5V cut-off voltage as per the data sheet with the GR, BL or V designations shows.  So I mean this kind of JFET is not ideal for switching unless you use an outside negative bias between the gate and source to cut off drain current whenever there is no induced trigger AC voltage to control the gate-source.)

The ALD110800 or ALD110900 is a bit better in this respect because at zero gate-source voltage the drain-source resistance is 104 kOhm, quasi an open circuit for the 80 Ohm drive coil so a negligible current can flow in the coil. And when the trigger voltage will be more positive at the gate wrt the source, it can switch ON,  from data sheet the drain current is about 3mA when the VGS=+4V (at VDS=5V). With the VGS=+4V the drain-source ON resistance is 500 Ohm.  (So your 80 Ohm drive coil and this 500 Ohm will behave as a voltage divider: smaller part of the supply voltage feeds the coil and the bigger part of it is dissipated across the FET.)
Notice: this type can have a maximum of 10V between its drain-source, higher than this may cause damage, so be careful with the inductive spikes.

Gyula

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2013, 11:50:40 PM »
@Conrad: very nice work!
Makes me long for my precision tooling, which is still out of reach.

Also... what Gyula said, ditto.


Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2013, 01:09:09 AM »
Hi folks, here is some information about one of Joseph Newman's motors.
It seems to have some similarities, like the long series coil and possible energy return.
COIL PARAMETERS:
                Weight ...........................  9,000 pounds
                Copper Wire Length ...............  55 miles
                Coil Inductance ..................  1,100 Henries
                Coil Resistance ..................  770 Ohms
                Coil Inside Diameter .............  4 feet
                Coil Height ......................  4 feet
ROTOR PARAMETERS:
                Rotor Weight .....................  700 lbs. ceramic magnets
                Rotor Length .....................  4 feet
                Moment of Inertia ................  40 Kg-sq.m.
                Magnetic Moment ..................  100 Tesla-cu.in
BATTERY PARAMETERS:
                Battery Type .....................  6 Volt Ray-O-Vac Lantern
                Total Series Voltage .............  590 Volts
DYNAMIC PARAMETERS:
                Torque Constant ..................  15,400 oz. in./amp
                Drag Coefficient .................  0.005 Watts/sq.rpm.
                Q at 200 rpm .....................  30
                Power Factor, 200 rpm ............  0.03
The torque constant was measured at DC and agrees with  calculations.  The drag
coefficient  was  measured  by  plotting  the  motor  speed  versus  time after
disconnecting the batteries.   It was found  that the decay is exponential with
the  drag  torque  being  proportional to  the angular speed.   With  the motor
operating at 200 rpm, the following measurements and calculations were obtained:
RESULTS:  200 RPM at 590 VOLTS
                Battery Input Current ............  10 milliampere
                Battery Input Power ..............  6 Watts
                Rotor Frictional Losses ..........  200 Watts
                RF Current (rms) .................  500 milliampere
                RF Ohmic Losses in Coil ..........  190 Watts
                Additional Loads .................  Fluorescent Tubes
                                                    Incandescent Bulbs
                                                    Fan (belt driven)
The frictional  losses  are  computed  from  the measured drag coefficient. The
ohmic  losses are  computed from the coil resistance.   Without considering the
additional loads, it is seen that the output energy of the machine exceeded the
input by a factor of 65!

peace love light
tyson





Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2013, 04:49:58 AM »
Forgot to include this important piece of information.

Quote
The most  important design rule specified by the
inventor is that the length of wire in the motor coil be very long; preferably
long enough so that the switching  time between  current  reversals is shorter
than the  time required  for propagation of the current  wavefront through the
coil.   Various  models  contain  up to 55 miles  of wire, with  air core coil
inductances of up to 20,000 Henries.  The permanent magnet armatures have very
large magnetic moments.  Thus the motors exhibit  high torque with low current
inputs.  The motors generate large back current spikes consisting of pulsed rf
in the 10-20 MHz  frequency  range.   These spikes  provide  large  mechanical
impulses to the rotor, energize fluorescent tubes placed across the motor, and
tend  to  charge  the  dry cell battery pack.  The total generated energy ----
consisting of mechanical work,  mechanical friction,  ohmic heating, and light
---- is many times larger than the battery input energy.
peace love light
tyson :)


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2013, 06:49:52 AM »
New vid  New cap, seems to accelerate!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCf-4zFmjNk

Mags 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2013, 06:49:52 AM »

 

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