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Author Topic: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".  (Read 304368 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2013, 01:32:35 AM »
A strange thought...

Wind a single layer bifi in series connection having 1 wire on each end.
Now begin a new second layer bifi starting from the same point as the first layer did only wind it in the opposite direction than the first. If the first was clockwise looking at the starting end then the second layer bifi starts counter clockwise.

Now, the second layer is also series connected and has 2 leads, one at each end. This leaves us with 4 leads 2 at each end. If we apply a dc current to the ends of the first coil we will have N at one end and S at the other end of the coil. If we apply the same dc to the second coil, same polarity same ends of the coil, the N and S field will be switched because the second coil was wound counterclockwise.

Now, take the leads of the second coil and connect them to the first coil leads at opposite ends. The coils are wired in parallel now but reverse electrical polarity in reference to the far end connections, but now we have both coil fields with N on one side and S on the other.

Ill draw it if need be. But whats my point?????

In the first and second layer bifi coils there is 50% of input voltage between adjacent windings. BUT, now look at the voltage differences between the adjacent first and second layer windings.  If the input is 100v, the difference between the first turn of the first layer and the first turn of the second layer is right near 100v.  Not 50v. And its at both ends of the coil this happens. Im not totally sure what happens between successive adjacent layer turns, but I think they diminish toward the middle to the 50-50. Do they? lol. I have to try this later, and see what happens.

I find it to be interesting considering with just the bifi we get the 50% deal between windings, but here we are introducing at least near 100% difference between windings. Even if it just leveled out to 50-50 in the middle of the coil, the added increase outward to the ends of the coil should have some advanced effect beyond the bifi alone.

Hmm, and more layers could be made. Or, hmm, offsetting the starting point of the second layer, could we get maybe 75v between all adjacent layer windings?  Dunno. Just thinkin.  ;) I feel a little of my 'spark' coming back with this project. ;D

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2013, 01:32:35 AM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2013, 01:44:33 AM »
The lower resonant frequency of a series bifilar coil shows that the self-capacitance is higher, but not by much, perhaps 40% to 70%.  With a regular coil you might have one volt of potential between turns and in a series bifilar coil you might have 50 volts of potential between turns.  That's were the moderately larger self capacitance has a higher "capacity" to store energy because of the increased potential difference between the "plates" (adjacent turns) of the self capacitance.

An equivalent to a series bifilar coil would a regular coil in parallel with a high-voltage capacitor.  The capacitor can be any size so it's much more flexible.

You can experiment with series bifilar coils or regular coils hooked up as LC tank circuits and observe their behaviour, and you won't find any "extra energy."

MileHigh

P.S.:  The Earth is slowing down!  That's why we have leap-seconds.


Offline forest

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2013, 07:19:39 AM »
A strange thought...

Wind a single layer bifi in series connection having 1 wire on each end.
Now begin a new second layer bifi starting from the same point as the first layer did only wind it in the opposite direction than the first. If the first was clockwise looking at the starting end then the second layer bifi starts counter clockwise.

Now, the second layer is also series connected and has 2 leads, one at each end. This leaves us with 4 leads 2 at each end. If we apply a dc current to the ends of the first coil we will have N at one end and S at the other end of the coil. If we apply the same dc to the second coil, same polarity same ends of the coil, the N and S field will be switched because the second coil was wound counterclockwise.

Now, take the leads of the second coil and connect them to the first coil leads at opposite ends. The coils are wired in parallel now but reverse electrical polarity in reference to the far end connections, but now we have both coil fields with N on one side and S on the other.

Ill draw it if need be. But whats my point? ??? ?

In the first and second layer bifi coils there is 50% of input voltage between adjacent windings. BUT, now look at the voltage differences between the adjacent first and second layer windings.  If the input is 100v, the difference between the first turn of the first layer and the first turn of the second layer is right near 100v.  Not 50v. And its at both ends of the coil this happens. Im not totally sure what happens between successive adjacent layer turns, but I think they diminish toward the middle to the 50-50. Do they? lol. I have to try this later, and see what happens.

I find it to be interesting considering with just the bifi we get the 50% deal between windings, but here we are introducing at least near 100% difference between windings. Even if it just leveled out to 50-50 in the middle of the coil, the added increase outward to the ends of the coil should have some advanced effect beyond the bifi alone.

Hmm, and more layers could be made. Or, hmm, offsetting the starting point of the second layer, could we get maybe 75v between all adjacent layer windings?  Dunno. Just thinkin.  ;) I feel a little of my 'spark' coming back with this project. ;D

Mags


Ooooooooouch ! I think you touched my coil which I wanted to patent later he he . Don't worry, I do not expect to finish it in my current financial situation...

Offline forest

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2013, 07:20:35 AM »
The lower resonant frequency of a series bifilar coil shows that the self-capacitance is higher, but not by much, perhaps 40% to 70%.  With a regular coil you might have one volt of potential between turns and in a series bifilar coil you might have 50 volts of potential between turns.  That's were the moderately larger self capacitance has a higher "capacity" to store energy because of the increased potential difference between the "plates" (adjacent turns) of the self capacitance.

An equivalent to a series bifilar coil would a regular coil in parallel with a high-voltage capacitor.  The capacitor can be any size so it's much more flexible.

You can experiment with series bifilar coils or regular coils hooked up as LC tank circuits and observe their behaviour, and you won't find any "extra energy."

MileHigh

P.S.:  The Earth is slowing down!  That's why we have leap-seconds.


It also mean higher charge stored, I think nicely distributed among coil wires...


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2013, 08:08:27 AM »

Ooooooooouch ! I think you touched my coil which I wanted to patent later he he . Don't worry, I do not expect to finish it in my current financial situation...

Sorry.  :o ;D

Thought again and just a first and second layer, opposing windings, not bifi will have 100% difference between each adjacent layer winding.  Will have to try both ways.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2013, 08:08:27 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2013, 08:12:40 AM »
I guess a caduceus coil interleaved and connected like I said above would be the same. The coils where the turns are close together but cross over each other once every turn.

Mags

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2013, 05:33:33 PM »
The Tesla bifilar builds it's own internal capacitive charge spontaineously, without any artificial input. This is what the term "Self Capacitance " refers to.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2013, 05:33:33 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2013, 05:53:35 PM »
I guess a caduceus coil interleaved and connected like I said above would be the same. The coils where the turns are close together but cross over each other once every turn.

Mags

Mag's, I think going by what I can deduce from various experiments that with a multi strand coil with twisted wire (like Litz wire) when we series connect the strands "Tesla style" we only get more self capacitance but not the increased potential between turns like the Tesla Patent coil does.

Gyula, I'm not sure ! I'll need to re read the patent, it helps for myself to take the time and read the whole thing from start to finish each time I gain a new perspective, and that's with any patent in general I think. I would think for the advantage to be not resistance the wire would be say 1 x strand 1000 feet long for a regular coil and 2 x strands 500 feet long for the Tesla Electro-magnet coil. I haven't re-read it yet though. I'll try to make time.

To all/anyone, I wonder if when using a dedicated charging coil as in my pulse motor or Tesla's IGNITER FOR GAS ENGINES PATENT would the capacitor the coil discharged into ( C2  in my motor drawings) be charged to a higher voltage because of the higher "capacity" of the Tesla type winding, I realize if it did the input would be more because the coil would take in more energy, logically. But the point is the voltage gained for the size of the coil and the "extra" inherent delay involved in that "lower resonant frequency as well".

But would the same turns in a Tesla type winding produce more voltage into a capacitor than a regular single wind if switched for a given time say 3 mS, (as in a resonant charging circuit case) ? Hmmmm. it must, Logic says so and the input energy would be more for the 3 mS time connected to the supply if done at the right frequency so as to cancel the self inductance of the charging coil. Big input, lots of energy small coil. Sounds good.  ;)

Cheers

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2013, 12:10:46 AM »
The Tesla bifilar builds it's own internal capacitive charge spontaineously, without any artificial input. This is what the term "Self Capacitance " refers to.

The term self capacitance in connection with coils has always meant: "The capacitive component of a coil, which reduces its impedance at high frequencies and can lead to resonance and self-oscillation, is also called self-capacitance as well as stray or parasitic capacitance."There can be other meanings of self capacitance, some are here where I took the above quote too:
http://www.answers.com/topic/capacitance#Self-capacitance   



Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2013, 01:30:32 AM »
Mag's, I think going by what I can deduce from various experiments that with a multi strand coil with twisted wire (like Litz wire) when we series connect the strands "Tesla style" we only get more self capacitance but not the increased potential between turns like the Tesla Patent coil does.



I realize that. For one, the interlaced windings replaces having immediate next turns close to each other by having the other coils windings in between them. This is probably what really helps to reduce the self inductance along with the additional capacitive attraction due to higher voltage differences. It works with the voltage divisions amongst the windings and rearranges them to provide the highest voltage difference between adjacent turns thus increasing capacitive nature in the coil because of these voltage differences.

So my suggestion of a 2 layer, each layer, series bifi in themselves, and winding the second layer from the same starting point as the first layer but wound in the opposite direction as the first, we have the capacitance within each layer, also 'more' capacitive action between the layers. And that capacitive nature has 100% voltage difference between layers, not 50% as within each layer already.

Maybe its nothing, but I have not seen it except for possibly a tightly wound caduceus coil with the wire flip for each turn or half turns, as one would see fit.

But this 2 layer where each bifi interacts through layers while each layer is bifi already may be something different.

If it is 2 layers, I will approach it as a large diameter to increase inductance so the coil wont have to be so long.

Ive set up my pulse motor to try some things with speedup while I finish the Arduino programming.  Till the controller is set up, I set up the motor to run using reeds and testing the bifi as a gen with loads and some other things.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2013, 01:30:32 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2013, 04:28:53 AM »
The term self capacitance in connection with coils has always meant: "The capacitive component of a coil, which reduces its impedance at high frequencies and can lead to resonance and self-oscillation, is also called self-capacitance as well as stray or parasitic capacitance."There can be other meanings of self capacitance, some are here where I took the above quote too:
http://www.answers.com/topic/capacitance#Self-capacitance

Tesla bifilar's generate and store a self charge that's nearly twice the capacitance of an equal single wire solinoid. This charge eliminates any resistance to change in current direction in the coil, decreasing switch time and permiting smoother running at higher speeds.
 
Compass deflection between the two types of non charged coils would reveal the real difference between the two types of coils.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2013, 05:04:34 AM »
Synchro1:

Quote
This charge eliminates any resistance to change in current direction in the coil, decreasing switch time and permiting smoother running at higher speeds.

The basic operating principle of a coil is that applying a voltage to the coil will slowly induce current to flow in the coil.  The larger the coil the longer it takes the same applied voltage to induce current flow.  It's identical to spinning up a large and heavy flywheel mounted on very good bearings with your arms.  It's very hard to change the speed of the flywheel.

So the charge associated with the self-capacitance will not in fact eliminate any resistance to the current direction in the coil.  As we discussed in another thread, the self-capacitance of a coil is insignificant in comparison to the inductance of the coil and in the vast majority of cases you can simply ignore it.

My gut feeling is the Tesla series bifilar coil patent is being grossly misinterpreted on the free energy forums.  He states in the patent that he did the wiring like that because there were no high-voltage capacitors readily available.

My suggestion for those interested is to master the basics of inductors and capacitors and truly understand how they work in both the time domain and the frequency domain.   An inductor acts like an open circuit at high frequencies, a capacitor acts like a short circuit at high frequencies.  An inductor acts like a short circuit at low frequencies and a capacitor acts like an open circuit at low frequencies.  Those are the kinds of concepts that I suggest you focus on.

It's all up to you guys but I think that you are focusing too much energy on that Tesla bifilar pancake coil patent.  In the context of doing experiments on your bench right now, it's not significant.

Just my two cents.

MileHigh


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2013, 07:10:17 AM »


As we discussed in another thread, the self-capacitance of a coil is insignificant in comparison to the inductance of the coil and in the vast majority of cases you can simply ignore it.

My gut feeling is the Tesla series bifilar coil patent is being grossly misinterpreted on the free energy forums.  He states in the patent that he did the wiring like that because there were no high-voltage capacitors readily available.

It's all up to you guys but I think that you are focusing too much energy on that Tesla bifilar pancake coil patent.  In the context of doing experiments on your bench right now, it's not significant.

Just my two cents.


"As we discussed in another thread, the self-capacitance of a coil is insignificant in comparison to the inductance of the coil and in the vast majority of cases you can simply ignore it."

You are ignoring other details. If we have 1 coil regular and one bifi, both of equal total number of turns, as we increase the number of turns on each, the capacitance of the normal coil becomes more insignificant because the more turns, the more voltage division of the total Vin, thus less voltage difference between each turn and adjacent turn. But the bifi, no matter how many turns you have, 1000 or even 1 million turns, every winding will be next to another winding that is 50% of Vin in reference to each other. This is not insignificant.  And this coil definitely fits into the 'vast minority' cases when it comes to coils. Look around. There arent any. ;)

"My gut feeling is the Tesla series bifilar coil patent is being grossly misinterpreted on the free energy forums.

Maybe that is your gut feeling. My gut feeling is the opposite of yours. That doesnt make you or I wrong, yet. Lets continue and see what comes of it and decide in the end.  ;)

"He states in the patent that he did the wiring like that because there were no high-voltage capacitors readily available."

Actually, he said they were too bulky and expensive, not that they were not available. ;D

"It's all up to you guys but I think that you are focusing too much energy on that Tesla bifilar pancake coil patent.  In the context of doing experiments on your bench right now, it's not significant."

You seem to want to offer help with your knowledge in discovering fundamentals of these things. Why is this so insignificant? Once we actually see what we can see and gain real experience with it, then we will know for sure if it has any use or not. There is a lot of this and that about this coil configuration out there. So lets try and get it straight once and for all.

We cannot just throw a few numbers out there like 40 to 70% as if that covers it. The more turns each coil has, regular and bifi, the difference becomes more clear. Testing a tiny 100 microhenry coils, bifi and regular, there is not enough turns to signify a difference between the two coils.

We will see what comes of it here as we go along. We did take this subject out of the delayed lenz effect thread and someone started this one. So why suggest that we dont make use of it?

Mags

Offline fritz

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2013, 12:23:55 PM »
Some Example:

Let´s build an electromagnet with 100V operating voltage, DC, 5Watt DC losses if turned on.

current = power / voltage = 5W / 100V = 50mA

to achieve that we would need wire with DC resistance =  voltage/current = 100V / 50mA = 2000 Ohms.

The thing shouldn´t be too heavy - so we run for an AWG38 Wire.

Using some tool: http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html

we end up with 3033ft of AWG38 wire.

...thats about 15.000 turns on somewhat 1 1/2 inch bobin.

Lets make the coil with 2 wires side-by side and 7500 turns - and connect them in series.

We´ll probably end up with a few nanofarad distributed capacity - and would spare the external
rc in that situation.

This coil "trick" makes only sense in a certain impedance window.
 


Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2013, 12:51:12 PM »
Yes fritz, I agree, and for an electromagnet with a great many turns and a lot of self inductance if we want it to turn on fast (current to flow as quick as possible)
then we need to look at cancelling it's self inductance in order for it to turn on quicker. Wouldn't we ?
Also if the capacitance that cancels the self inductance is distributed it might cancel the self induction at a different rate, as it goes around kind of thing.  :-\

I think i can see with my pulse motor that when the coils are near resonance the current can really flow.  :)   At least it appears that way to me.
 

Cheers

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2013, 12:51:12 PM »

 

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