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Author Topic: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".  (Read 310274 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2013, 07:20:11 PM »
Shumann resonance is merely one aspect of the "Oscillating frequency of magnetisem" as measured along any Bloch wall and determined to be a constant.

You should win some kind of prize for that statement.
 :P

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2013, 07:20:11 PM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2013, 07:22:21 PM »
Synchro1:

Quote
The SBC resonant frequency Farmhand measured in his SBC electromagnet  is the same as his other Tesla coils, determined by the constant L C frequency in all the SBC coils. This is the same harmonic as the frequency between the Earth's magnetic poles and also the poles of a permanent magnet, in proportion to strength. The SBC's all share the same capacity to inductace ratio. The pure sine wave resonance is in tune with a broader spectrum of harmonics, including the one inside the neo sphere, depending on strength.   
 
Matching a proper size and strength sphere magnet spinner to an SBC for resonance is important

You seem to be saying that all SBC coils will have the same resonant frequency.  Don't forget that L and C can change from coil to coil.  So coils can self-resonae at essentially any frequency.

Your comment about the sine wave resonance is strange to say the least.

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2013, 07:27:56 PM »
@MH: Isn't the Schumann cavity formed by the Earth and the Ionosphere? Hence, not thousands of miles out in space but rather only about 80-100, (or 50-300 for the extreme range) and varying with sunlight pressure (and HAARP activity of course.)

Lightning discharges are the equivalent of dielectric "punctures" in a capacitor. Fortunately the atmosphere heals, like a good poly film cap. Tesla's idea was to use this big capacitor to transfer inputted energy wirelessly to any point within the cavity, and also, using similar apparatus, to extract or entrain some of the vast amount of energy that is already stored there, a tiny bit of which we see when the dielectric punctures in a thunderstorm. It's my unreasoned faith that this might somehow be possible. It is my fair certainty that it will involve physically very large apparatus and high initial energy inputs.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2013, 07:28:57 PM »
@TK,
 
Thank you! I'm up for the "Dumbell" science award again.
 
My "Zither of Unity" monopole SBC spiral self runner is powering the 1/2" magnet sphere in excess of the transister switch speed in the self loop video. This has to be a result of oscillatory SBC resonance. The tiny thread spool SBC up and begins to run itself too, with no output coil loop at subsonic r.p.m.
 
I believe that the SBC basically begins to power the magnet spinner with  RADIO WAVES at high frequency.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2013, 07:34:30 PM »
@Farmhand:
When I'm determining resonance of a coil or tank, I generally use a "sniffer" coil made from a turn or two of wire, looped around the coil I'm stimulating, and I probe this loop with a scope probe. Using a square wave excitation from the signal generator is proper, as the probe coil will respond sinusoidally when you find the resonant frequency. Once you've found the frequency switch to sine excitation for very fine tuning to peak output from the probe coil. If you are working with a TC primary-secondary pair or just the secondary, you can stimulate the primary directly with the FG and a 50R in series, and probe across the secondary with a 10 meg resistor in series with your scope probe. Again, square wave stimulation will result in the highest amplitude sine wave on the secondary or probe coil output, as the induced EMF is proportional to the rate of change of the inducing current.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2013, 07:34:30 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2013, 07:40:41 PM »
@TK,
 
Thank you! I'm up for the "Dumbell" science award again.
 
My "Zither of Unity" monopole SBC spiral self runner is powering the 1/2" magnet sphere in excess of the transister switch speed in the self loop video. This has to be a result of oscillatory SBC resonance. The tiny thread spool SBC up and begins to run itself too, with no output coil loop at subsonic r.p.m.
 
I believe that the SBC basicly begins to power the magnet with radio waves at high frequency.

When you are pushing a child on a swing, do you have to supply a push on every cycle to keep her swinging? Of course not, and you don't even have to push her on a regular basis, just with enough power to replace her losses between pushes. Your pushes don't even have to be "resonant", that is, in synch with her swinging period, as long as the net timing results in replacing the lost energy, rather than removing more.

I'm not completely familiar with your experiment, and we've clashed before about your interpretation of Tesla's patent. However, I encourage you to carry on experimenting, but I ask you to be careful and circumspect in your interpretations of your results and the claims you make. If you see something interesting and unusual, form an hypothesis about it, then try your best to _disprove_ your own hypotheses. When you fail.... you succeed.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2013, 08:19:21 PM »
I believe the SB coil broadcasts on a magnetically resonant bandwidth, broadcasting a pure sine wave signal in the Mhz range as the coil powers up. This is transformed into kinetic energy by the neo magnet. This is because the magnetic L C frequency of the coil grows to match the frequency of magnetic oscillation in the magnet spinner field, determined by strength. Then the magnet spinner catches a tail wind!

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2013, 08:19:21 PM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2013, 09:40:43 PM »



Hey guys,


 Can I ask a question? No... Lol...


 What makes matter what it is? I mean is it the matter or is it from the frequency that the matter is wrapped around? Has anyone just resonated a chunk of matter and found out the frequency of each kind of matter? It has to be electrical right?


 I'm not trying to start an argument but merely asking that maybe if a certain conductor that is resonant at it's own frequency, which makes it that specific kind of matter, that design of a coil should include this resonant base frequency of the matter itself.


 Just a thought...

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2013, 10:47:19 PM »
TK:

Thanks for correcting me about the height of the reflecting layer of the ionosphere.  In the back of my mind I wanted to double-check but you can get tired with "look up fatigue."

I strongly disagree with you though about using a square wave to find he coil self-resonant frequency.  We are modelling the coil as a parallel LC circuit and looking for the frequency corresponding to the the highest impedance, correct?  So why would you want to pump multiple simultaneous frequencies into the parallel LC filter if you are looking for a single resonant frequency?  When you characterize any filter it is easier to do it with a sine wave representing one frequency only, and then sweep that frequency.

I am not saying that it's absolutely wrong to use a square wave, but you could get fooled and see what you think is a peak response which is happening due to a harmonic and not due to the fundamental.  It's just "cleaner" to sweep the filter with a sine wave.

Synchro1:

I don't know if you have a scope but if you do you should do a very careful analysis before drawing any conclusions about your motor.  The full explanation for what is happening should be interesting but it's doubtful it's going to involve the very very high frequencies that you are indicating.

MileHigh

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2013, 12:13:13 AM »
Here's something very interesting on spinning magnets with radio waves. Coil and capacitor
 
 
http://amasci.com/tesla/tescv2.html
 
 
Exerpt:
 
 
"Notice that the magnet can be MUCH smaller than the wavelength of the radio waves. It's the field of the magnet that intercepts the energy, not the physical magnet poles. Also note that the physical magnet itself is not directly interacting with the incoming waves. Instead, the magnet's NEARFIELD B-FIELD interacts with the radio waves, and this altered b-field then applies a force to the magnet. The static field of the magnet absorbs energy from the radio waves, then it delivers that energy to the magnet as a mechanical force exerted over a distance. The nearfield b-field acts like an antenna! Since energy is absorbed from the radio waves, the spinning magnet must be casting a large "EM shadow," and punching a big hole in the incoming wavetrain. The magnet might be tiny, but its magnetic field can extend to a great distance. It's as if the rotating magnet surrounds itself with a large black "absorber cloud" which blocks the incoming EM waves. Obviously the magnet can only "reach out" within about 1/4 wavelength around itself. My synchronous motor has now become an "energy-sucking" antenna".
 
My question is:
 
How well does the SBC act as a radio transmitter? Answer, great!

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2013, 12:13:13 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2013, 12:51:49 AM »

I answer here to Magluvin, once Farmhand created this thread on the Coil for electromagnetc topic, quote from the Confirming the delayed Lenz effect thread:

We talked about the capacitance neutralizing the self inductance the other day.
If we have a coil with a cap across it, and then we just apply a dc source across it, the cap will charge virtually instantly, but the inductor wont. This might imitate a neutralizing of self inductance of the coil, where the current flows easily through the cap. We are talking about applying DC here.

If the capacitance is 'in' the coil, well that current that charges that capacitance goes 'through the coil' neutralizing the self inductance. And if it neutralizes self inductance, then maybe we could think, does that mean that the magnetic field is neutralized also, or just the effect of impedance is neutralized and outer magnetic field is unaffected. If so then initially there could be a very intense field pulse, as compared to a slowly building standard inductive field build, depending in the inductance.

That internal capacitance is charged through a coil that can make an external field like any other coil and the impedance is neutralized. So until this capacitance is charged, this coil might be acting like a super electromagnet. Sounds like a heck of an idea to patent. ;)

If we consider the cap connected to a coil, there probably isnt any purpose for it in the DC world. But here the capacitance is in the coil, and in my opinion, there should be a difference.

Also I stated earlier about the ability of holding power over time. Well if the field is huge in the beginning through the object being held, this may give us that stronger hold over time, instantly instead.

So you can see why I am emphatic about not testing them in series. It is not conclusive in any way. It does not show if one coil could pull more current than the other with the same voltage input. Its not correct in any way. The only thing that does is possibly show that the 2 coils can pick up the same amount of clips. But the singlefi coil in series wont allow the capacitance of the bifi to charge as it would connected to the supply alone, thus no initial magnetic pulse from the bifi.

Will see soon.  ;)   Im going more is better. :o ;D

Mags


Hi Mags,

I understand what you say. Basically I agree with it, the higher the self capacitance of a coil is, the more chance the input current 'sees' a less inductive reactance to fight with in the transient time till reaching the steady-state condition.  In my tests the about 420 uH bifilar coil with its 220 pF 'embedded' capacitance surely represents a negligible problem in this respect because these LC values are too small to cause any effect for the speed of a hand-operated switch I acted with.
There must be transient phenomenas in case of any RLC circuit / network but the switch on or off speed is important because the closer you hit the resonant frequency of an RLC circuit by the switching speed, the quicker the inductive (or capacitive) behaviour of the RLC circuit vanishes and the phase of the input current in that case will be closer and closer to the phase of the current flowing via the R part of the circuit.

This is exactly what Tesla achieved in his Coil for electromagnets patent by introducing wire B and winding very close to wire A, making up for the 1000 turn example of wire A with the additional 1000 turn of wire B. This way there have been an 'artificial' capacitor created and embedded into the coil when wires A and B were connected in series as he explained. He came up with this solution to increase the coils self capacitance without the use of high voltage discrete capacitors for lowering the normally rather high self-resonances of coils.

You ask: "does that mean that the magnetic field is neutralized also?"  By no means, because even for DC currents the capacitors represent a short circuit till they get charged up and for AC or pulsed DC currents the capacitors charge up then discharge as the rate of change dictates. AND the same input current must flow via the coil wires, especially in a series connection like Tesla showed. So the input current can go through the coil(s) hence flux is created.

I may have answered your questions.

Gyula

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2013, 01:06:38 AM »
Here's lidmotor broadcasting a radio signal with an upright pancake coil.
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoKDU1yGkPo
 
 
Would a 1 Mhz radio broadcast signal power a neo magnet sphere, broadcast from a SB pancake coil transmitter like Lidmotors? 1 Mhz was designated the best power range frequency by Nicola Tesla. The magnet speed would have to be raised to synchronization speed independently to meld with the broadcast sine wave.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2013, 01:17:44 AM »
I quote again from the Confirming the delayed Lenz effect thread:

 Quote from: synchro1 on April 21, 2013, 03:27:58 PM<blockquote>Thank you Gyula. The original experiment involved  shorting both coils accross a "D" cell battery. The obvious difference between the experiments is that power is free to rise to load with the battery, unlike Gyula's latest try, where the power is governd. Maybe the bifilar electromagnet will draw more input then Gyula's inputing to it, if you feed it. The original experiment allows for increased current consumption compared to Gyula's generous attempt. Enlighting regardless!
</blockquote>

Answer from Magluvin:
That makes sense. If the supply limits current then its possible that the low ohms of the 2 coils could push those current limits on their own, possibly not letting the currents needed bi the bifi to occur. Dunno yet.  But will.  (http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Mags   


Folks,

I do not fully understand you. The power supply does not limit current in my tests shown.  It is true that my supply has a controllable current limiting feature up to 750 mA max output current and it was set to that upper limit all the time.  And I took out only 430 mA from it. 
It is also okay that a D battery cell has a very low inner resistance but an analog variable power supply surely have a very low output impedance, normally the emitter follower power transistor output from its emitter point, so no problem in this respect. Power is also free to rise in case of a low output impedance supply too. 

Gyula

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2013, 02:06:14 AM »
(snip)
I strongly disagree with you though about using a square wave to find he coil self-resonant frequency.  We are modelling the coil as a parallel LC circuit and looking for the frequency corresponding to the the highest impedance, correct?  So why would you want to pump multiple simultaneous frequencies into the parallel LC filter if you are looking for a single resonant frequency?  When you characterize any filter it is easier to do it with a sine wave representing one frequency only, and then sweep that frequency.

I am not saying that it's absolutely wrong to use a square wave, but you could get fooled and see what you think is a peak response which is happening due to a harmonic and not due to the fundamental.  It's just "cleaner" to sweep the filter with a sine wave.

(snip)

You might be interested to know how my Arduino-based inductance meter works. I illustrate its operation in a video. I also show in another video how to determine the resonant frequency of a coil.

While the resonant frequency of a tank does correspond to the highest input impedance of the circuit, that is not the parameter I am observing, because that is not the parameter of interest. I want to know the resonant frequency. Hence I look for the purity and amplitude of the _output_ signal produced in a "receiving" coil placed around or near the inductor of the tank circuit I am testing. Take a look at Farmhand's scopeshots to see how the spectral purity of the output cleans up and becomes sinusoidal, and then peaks in amplitude, at the exact resonant frequency. There is no doubt when you get to the right frequency.

But the Arduino does it a little differently, but still corresponding to the same thing, and _still_ using a sharp-edged fast risetime square wave pulse to do it. The Arduino places the inductor under test into a tank circuit with a 2 microFarad cap, then rings the tank by applying a single sharp pulse, then it isolates the tank and observes the ringdown voltage peaks, times them and determines the frequency, then finds the inductance by calculation. A tank rings down at its resonant frequency, and the higher the Q the more countable peaks you will get in the ringdown before you have to "hit the gong" with a sharp pulse again.
(But of course a properly resonant TC hits the gong on every cycle in exactly the right timing.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6N8ys8FiA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alkfoX62Na0
Any Tesla coiler knows that the key to getting the proper HV VRSWR effect happening in the secondary, is to make the "driving pulse" in the primary to have the most rapid rise and fall times possible: a rectangular pulse, not a sine. This is why Tesla spent so much time on spark gaps, and why the spark gap is so critical to a proper performing TC. And it's why my MOT DC SGTC works so well: I use compressed air to blow out the spark gap, to decrease the rise and fall times of the primary current.

ETA: Looking at the tank directly, as in the videos above, rather than using a second pickup coil, produces the same results but for slightly different reasons.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2013, 02:10:07 AM »
I believe the SB coil broadcasts on a magnetically resonant bandwidth, broadcasting a pure sine wave signal in the Mhz range as the coil powers up. This is transformed into kinetic energy by the neo magnet. This is because the magnetic L C frequency of the coil grows to match the frequency of magnetic oscillation in the magnet spinner field, determined by strength. Then the magnet spinner catches a tail wind!
Not too much to object to there; your metaphors aren't leading you too far astray. All RF is "magnetically resonant bandwidth" for some receiver configuration, after all, and it is the neo magnet that is spinning, so no problems there, and certainly frequency matching is important and affected by the speed of the spinning magnet, and "catching a tailwind" is an appropriate way to describe the pumping of energy into the kinetic system, just as "pushing the child's swing" is. Weird kind of circular, cyclinc tailwind, though.

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2013, 02:10:07 AM »

 

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