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Author Topic: Resonance and HHO  (Read 49259 times)

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2013, 08:30:05 AM »
I enter the room, noticing dull brown wooden backed chairs surrounding a long shiny oak conference table.


Carefully, I reach into my pocket and withdraw a small shiny cylindrical pointed object. Extending my hand, I open my fingers and release the piece of metal. In slow motion it rotates three times, glinting in the bright lighting. It strikes the hard gray tiled floor.....


TING, Ting, ting, tinkle tinkle....


"Wow! You can hear a pin drop!"


 8)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2013, 08:30:05 AM »

Offline Gwandau

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2013, 02:06:55 AM »
pauldude000,
 
 
you certainly know how to express your feelings with great humour and with an almost psychedelik touch. I could hear that pin hit the floor...  ;D ;D
 
 
(Sorry for the delay, I've been busy upgrading my pc with the left overs from my sons new computer build, but now I am back high on hardware.)
 
Great input pauldude000, this thread is really inspiring, a lot of new information to assimilate, and thanks especially for elucidating me on the ANTENNA, absolutely crucial knowledge in the search for the key.
 
 
Yes, and Documentation for sure! I just wonder what would be the best way to store the documentation. It has to be easily accessible and updated.
Maybe we should start off with our own local databases and just gather interesting observations posted here, and later on when things may get more serious, we may think of making it accessible through a cloud service or the like.
 
 
Quote
  We may have to hit the molecule with a frequency to impart energy and strain the bonds, and another to break the weakened bonds.


Yes, I too believe the key consists of several different phases to be executed in order to put the unlocking mechanism into effect.
 
 
The key may be a delicate set of parameters elegantly and economically canceling out or decreasing the electric dipolarity of the water molecule. As I understand, the water molecule displays a notable differential in the distribution of electron density, where the average electron density around the oxygen atom is about 10x that around the hydrogen atoms.
 
 
So if we could stress the V-shaped molecule to change its angle, not only would the molecular antenna alter its wavelength properties, it would as well have altered the very dipole geometry and its strength. And it is here the conventional electrolysis may play an important part. I don't like the big differential in the electron cloud. We have to do something about those valence electrons.
 
 
Whatever direction this project will take, I am sure we will have a lot of fun. And I have a feeling we will get company on this thread when we strike our first anomaly observation.
 
I own some quite odd equipment used in the coating industry that generates extremes of static electricity at an ampere level that hopefully won't kill you, and we are talking about many hundred of thousands of volts here. I have been wondering if those generators could be of any use here. I am quite ignorant in the electronics field but something tells me static electricity could be of interest when it comes to subjecting water to different extremes. What do you think?
 
 
Gwandau

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2013, 04:01:36 AM »
Quote
I own some quite odd equipment used in the coating industry that generates extremes of static electricity at an ampere level that hopefully won't kill you, and we are talking about many hundred of thousands of volts here. I have been wondering if those generators could be of any use here. I am quite ignorant in the electronics field but something tells me static electricity could be of interest when it comes to subjecting water to different extremes. What do you think?


It might well. A static electrical field should be able to raise the energy levels of any particular atom within the mix. You may not need the high power equipment, but it may well be useful for "proof of concept" principles. I have made and designed Tesla coils, Oudin coils, D'Arsonval high frequency step down autoformers, VanDeGraaff Static generators, among numerous other high voltage devices.


However for purposes of practicality concerning both replication, duplication, and also end user application, the actual finished device needs to utilize common components and be as compact as practically possible. For HV DC, we can use television flyback transformers or diode capacitor voltage multiplier circuits if necessary for the finished device.


Your cool tools will be a useful addition though, as you can test HV DC vs bond effects, etc., and perform experiments quickly and easily. That will be both nice and useful.


This thread has turned out more interesting than anticipated. Initially I was just curious as to whether it might be a viable approach, and whether or not it had been tried already. I had not intended to start a massive project, with the potential of having a group work on the concept. The concept of a group is fine with me, but it shocks me in a way.


Is this concept of an approach really that novel? (Initially I had assumed it probably 'old hat', and would be steered to some other's previous research.)




EDIT ADDED:


For documentation I still find that nothing really competes with the lab notebook and pencil. They allow for spontaneous data notation during the event, not relying on fallible memory after the event, and can be scanned and uploaded, or typed out later, easily.


Whatever a person is comfortable with is good, but a lowly notebook is better.  ;D


For those wanting to do Computer Graphics, I recommend Chasys Draw IES ([size=78%]http://bit.ly/11Y1kpV[/size][size=78%]) [/size]as it has two things going for it.


1. Is is almost as powerful as photoshop, and can use photoshop and gimp plugins.
2. Just as important... IT IS FREE. (I am a cheapskate.)








Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2013, 04:49:51 AM »
For those interested in what a project finding the harmonics of a molecule of water is in a usable format.....


Harmonics are based upon wavelength, and not upon 1/4 or 1/2 wave etc.


A 4th order harmonic is the base frequency multiplied by 5. For instance, using a 60Hz base frequency.


Base (1 wavelength) = 60Hz
1st order (2 wavelengths) = 120Hz
2nd order (3 wavelengths) = 180Hz
3rd = 240Hz
4th = 300Hz


Therefore, we need to find either the harmonic which ends at 1018 Hz, and find the frequency which comes closest to a true 1/4 wavelength resonance. Not easy. I am going to write a program which will figure this automatically for my inadequate old brain.


Edit Added:


Should have reiterated the target frequency for 1/4 wavelength at 1100 picometers.


1100 picometers = 0.0011 micrometers
0.0011 micrometers = 272538598.18181825 Ghz (OOOOUUUUCH!)

http://www.unitconversion.org/length/picometers-to-micrometers-conversion.html
http://www.photonics.byu.edu/fwnomograph.phtml

In other words... 272538598181818250 Hz, or 2.725xxxxxxx X1017 Hz.  And we have to be PRECISE to be on 1/4 wave!


Every one of those digits is significant. Round anything off, and it throws off the resonance by orders of magnitude.


Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2013, 12:56:38 PM »
Hmmm...


Did that last post scare people or what?


It is not as bad as it looks. We actually lucked out. It is a huge string of numbers, but is easily divisible, as the last two digits are what matters. xxxxxxxxx50 means that the frequency is evenly divisible by 1,2,5,10,50


If I remember correctly, the resonant multiple which places the amplitude peak at maximum at 1/4 is in multiples of five wavelengths anyway. I will have to check to be sure, but I think so, just speaking off hand.


That would make the whole process a done deal.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2013, 12:56:38 PM »
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Offline Gwandau

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2013, 02:51:19 AM »
Not scared, just keeping a respectful distance until assimilated enough harmonic theory to be able to ask meaningful questions in regard to HHO resonance.

How do you plan to implement the frequency experiments? Treating the water as an electrolyte and subjecting it to alternate current or pulsed DC, or both? Or are you thinking underwater soundwave generation?  I myself am going for sound generation. Maybe my old analogue synthesizer will be of use, it's an old Moog replica made by Roland (Roland System 100) with two independent oscillators and a diversity of interconnctive possibilities between all kinds of wave modulator and filters, you know, one of these old fun machines with a tendency to get absolutely covered with cables at the end of the day.
 

A lot of alternatives comes to my mind, most of them probably easily discardable due to my ignorance in the field, such as how about creating resonating or interfering patterns between two HF PWM:s with one of their poles at two different ends of a nonconductive cylinder of a diamter and length decided by a suitable harmonic and their other poles being situated around the middle part of the cylinder? The cylinder shape seems to be considered an interesting shape when it comes to harmonics. And so on and so forth, ideas surface now like bubbles in champagne, and probably just as shallow. ;D

So don't take my suggestions too seriously, I'm just freewheeling deep into the Swedish winter night.

Cheers,
 
Gwandau

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2013, 03:59:18 AM »
Quote
Harmonics are based upon wavelength, and not upon 1/4 or 1/2 wave etc.


A 4th order harmonic is the base frequency multiplied by 5. For instance, using a 60Hz base frequency.


Base (1 wavelength) = 60Hz
1st order (2 wavelengths) = 120Hz
2nd order (3 wavelengths) = 180Hz
3rd = 240Hz
4th = 300Hz

Interesting discussion.

Harmonics are actually multiples of a fundamental
frequency.  The fourth harmonic (fourth multiple) of
60 Hz would be 240 Hz; while the Fourth Overtone of
60 Hz would be 300 Hz.

The First Overtone is equivalent to the Second Harmonic.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2013, 03:59:18 AM »
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Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2013, 04:19:20 AM »
Quote
If I remember correctly, the resonant multiple which places the amplitude peak at maximum at 1/4 is in multiples of five wavelengths anyway. I will have to check to be sure, but I think so, just speaking off hand.

For Quarter Wave resonance the length of the
Antenna would be 1/4 the length of the resonant
frequency wavelength; or saying it another way,
the length of the antenna would be the length
of the 4th Harmonic.

This will result in a standing wave which is the
result of the forward and reflected waves which
are traveling in opposite directions.  The end of
the antenna which is fed will represent the Low
Impedance point and the opposite end will represent
the High Impedance point.  The Low impedance
point corresponds to minimum voltage and maximum
current while the High Impedance end corresponds
to Maximum Voltage and Minimum Current.  This is
known as the Quarter Wave Transform[ation.]

The Characteristic Impedance (or Radiation Resistance)
of a Quarter Wave antenna is 50 Ohms.  Since the antenna
is at resonance its input point will appear to be purely resistive
to the source of applied power.

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2013, 04:34:51 AM »
It is indeed multiples of five. Below is a demonstration picture I made to show this. Using multiples of five is the ONLY ratio which reinforces the wave at all points. When the longer wave is at 0, maximum, or minimum, the harmonic matches. This is not true of 2,10,or 50, but is true of 5, 25, 125 (IE TIMES or DIVIDED by 5)




Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2013, 04:38:49 AM »
Interesting discussion.

Harmonics are actually multiples of a fundamental
frequency.  The fourth harmonic (fourth multiple) of
60 Hz would be 240 Hz; while the Fourth Overtone of
60 Hz would be 300 Hz.

The First Overtone is equivalent to the Second Harmonic.


True, SeaMonkey. However most resonances actually impede or cancel out higher and lower resonance frequencies due to being "out of step" so to speak with the harmonic. Tesla was after reinforcing resonance, where the signals did not attempt to cancel each other out.


It took me forever to understand what he was ultimately getting at. I think he assumed everyone thought that way.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2013, 04:38:49 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2013, 04:43:03 AM »
Yes, odd harmonics will add algebraically
to produce a unique waveshape.

Even harmonics when added algebraically
will produce another unique waveshape.

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2013, 05:06:26 AM »
Quote
... most resonances actually impede or cancel out higher and lower resonance frequencies due to being "out of step" so to speak with the harmonic. Tesla was after reinforcing resonance, where the signals did not attempt to cancel each other out.

Algebraic summation occurs throughout the length of
the Standing Wave of resonance which entails both
reinforcement (in phase) and cancellation (out of phase)
of varying degrees dependent upon position within the
Quarter Wave (or other) Standing Wave pattern.

You'll have to expand on what your meaning is.


Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2013, 05:08:56 AM »
Not scared, just keeping a respectful distance until assimilated enough harmonic theory to be able to ask meaningful questions in regard to HHO resonance.

How do you plan to implement the frequency experiments? Treating the water as an electrolyte and subjecting it to alternate current or pulsed DC, or both? Or are you thinking underwater soundwave generation?  I myself am going for sound generation. Maybe my old analogue synthesizer will be of use, it's an old Moog replica made by Roland (Roland System 100) with two independent oscillators and a diversity of interconnctive possibilities between all kinds of wave modulator and filters, you know, one of these old fun machines with a tendency to get absolutely covered with cables at the end of the day.
 

A lot of alternatives comes to my mind, most of them probably easily discardable due to my ignorance in the field, such as how about creating resonating or interfering patterns between two HF PWM:s with one of their poles at two different ends of a nonconductive cylinder of a diamter and length decided by a suitable harmonic and their other poles being situated around the middle part of the cylinder? The cylinder shape seems to be considered an interesting shape when it comes to harmonics. And so on and so forth, ideas surface now like bubbles in champagne, and probably just as shallow. ;D

So don't take my suggestions too seriously, I'm just freewheeling deep into the Swedish winter night.

Cheers,
 
Gwandau

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2013, 07:58:38 AM »
Algebraic summation occurs throughout the length of
the Standing Wave of resonance which entails both
reinforcement (in phase) and cancellation (out of phase)
of varying degrees dependent upon position within the
Quarter Wave (or other) Standing Wave pattern.

You'll have to expand on what your meaning is.


Precisely.


We want to input a harmonic frequency which by nature strengthens the other harmonics. I originally thought Tesla used the classic model for resonance. However, many of his statements were confusing at best concerning resonance. I thought it was just me. It wasn't until I realized he had is own quasi-model of resonance that he based his reasoning upon that everything started to make sense.


The strongest harmonics are going to be those which reinforce the parent frequency, which itself is merely the center harmonic in the system. Other harmonics will interplay, but will cancel themselves out quickly. Strong harmonics far away on the scale from the original input frequency will be those naturally reinforcing. If you want a specific harmonic to be present very far from the original frequency, the input must by nature be reinforcing.


The main POWER in the input signal is at either maximum or at minimum. We don't want the amperage leading or lagging the emf, so the system must be at Q. We need the harmonics to span an extreme range and get as close as possible to the desired frequency, but stay reinforcing. We need each reversal of energy to impart the maximum amount of energy possible into the system.


You have to think backwards in comparison to what you are used to with the classic model. In the classic model all harmonics are resonant, simply because they resonate. In Tesla's unique universe, harmonics are at pure resonance when they reinforce all other harmonics in the system. In a different approach, to Tesla there was no real practical difference between one type of wave and another. A sound wave or pressure wave was conceptually equal to an electromagnetic wave in reaction and interaction.


Harmonic implies harmony, not dissonance. To a quarter wave resonant system, any harmonic which does not naturally reinforce is dissonance in the system. What we would call today undesirable static or white noise.


EDIT ADDED:


I just proofread this, and I realized I left something important out.


Notice those three waves in the picture I uploaded. There is something of note in them, which the other 'harmonics' (dissonants) do not do, which is match the original signal anywhere but at the beginning of the main wave, and the end. The only reason they are resonant at all is they share two zero emf nodes with the parent wave. As you notice in the picture, a true harmonic shares four, one every 90 degrees. 0 , maximum , 0 ,  minimum and then the cycle starts over.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2013, 08:43:40 AM »
How do you plan to implement the frequency experiments? Treating the water as an electrolyte and subjecting it to alternate current or pulsed DC, or both? Or are you thinking underwater soundwave generation?  I myself am going for sound generation. Maybe my old analogue synthesizer will be of use, it's an old Moog replica made by Roland (Roland System 100) with two independent oscillators and a diversity of interconnctive possibilities between all kinds of wave modulator and filters, you know, one of these old fun machines with a tendency to get absolutely covered with cables at the end of the day.


The posting system erased the text to my driver circuit pictures. The two circuits each have their respective duties. The one on the left allows the 555 to go under 50% duty cycle (both under and over). The circuit on the right is a full range circuit as to frequency. Combine the two, and you have a full range pulse circuit of full range duty cycle, which will drive a standard hf Mosfet.


I intend to make the HHO tank just a conductor in a resonant Tesla primary driver style tank circuit (coil, cap, HHO Tank, gap). I shall use the 555 circuit to drive a car ignition coil (immersed oil can type) to power the circuit. The HHO tank will probably start off as two SS plates at a distance of a resonant harmonic immersed in a tank of either tap or dirty water. The max for input energy on my circuit should be around 70W, since I will be pulsing a Mosfet to drive the coil. (Coil itself is rated at 12v at 5-7A primary drive current)


The reason for the secondary resonant system is that I will be imparting short duration pulse-trains of immense power through the HHO tank at the proper frequency, while using diddly squat in the driving circuit. Yes, I will shield the coil with a Faraday cage... :)


I might well try other HHO tank styles, such as a tube within a tube, or a rod in a tube, or a dry cell etc., whether the experiment works or not.


If the soft hand frequency approach doesn't work, I can always build a massive, Faraday style, multi-disc homopolar generator... (ouch) Give it a couple thousand (or more) low voltage DC Amps and see what it has to say then... Bwaaaahaaaha! (My Dad used to say "If it doesn't work the first time, get a bigger hammer.")


You could try the sound concept. To me a wave is a wave. It might work with the proper frequency, or combination.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2013, 08:43:40 AM »

 

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