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Author Topic: Resonance and HHO  (Read 48448 times)

Offline pauldude000

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Resonance and HHO
« on: February 01, 2013, 12:14:06 PM »
I am not new to OU, but I am somewhat of a newbie to HHO. Something which has niggled at the back of my mind, nagging me for years has been the concept of producing HHO using resonance.


What I mean by this is the process of applying an electrical signal, the frequency of which is a sub-harmonic to the length of the H20 water molecule, which should make it vibrate like a bad dog. Not wasteful of energy like a microwave, but tuned as close as possible; treating the length of the water molecule as a quarter wavelength. If allowed to remain, this would just heat the water. However, vibrating at its natural resonant frequency a sudden input of dis-harmonic energy(sudden bursts of DC) should cause the molecule to throw itself apart, in conception sort of like a V8 engine at too high of RPM's. Frequency should be the key here, though higher voltage or amperage should yield higher volume/time.


Basically using finesse and not a sledgehammer. What made me originally think of this was Tesla's mechanical resonance experiments.


What do you guys think, and please share input. You longtimers at HHO may have already tried this, and I may be spouting old hat concepts here. If anyone knows the specific physical length of a water molecule it would be helpful.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Resonance and HHO
« on: February 01, 2013, 12:14:06 PM »

Offline Gwandau

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 11:16:00 PM »
Hi pauldude000,
 
glad to se you also are intrigued by the mystery of water and its hidden promise of abundant energy.
 
 
Water molecules are V-shaped with a molecular diameter ranging from about 2.75 Å (275 picometers), or more clearly, having the shape of a triangle with 2 sides measuring 95pm and one side measuring156pm.

The reason for differing values 275 versus 156 pm lies in the variation due to the vibrational condition of the water molecule quoted from link below:
 
"The actual values depend on the vibrational state of the molecule with even values of 180° being attainable during high order bend vibrations (v2 >= 7, λ < 900 nm) for the H-O-H angle. Vibrations are asymmetric around the mean positions. In the ground state, the bond angle is 104.5°.The atomic diameter can be determined from interpolation of the effective ionic radii of the isoelectronic ions (from crystal data) of O2- (2.80 Å), OH- (2.74 Å) and H3O+ (2.76 Å) . Coincidentally, this diameter is similar to the length of a hydrogen bond. The water molecule bond length is 0.96 Å."

As you can see I found a nice page with easily accessed information regarding the unique properties of water. I highly recommend anyone exploring the HHO path to get in depth aqquainted with the mysterious molecule before applying any ideas in the workshop.
 
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html

This is very intriguing:
"In the liquid state, in spite of 80% of the electrons being concerned with bonding, the three atoms do not stay together as the hydrogen atoms are constantly exchanging between water molecules due to protonation/deprotonation processes." "The hydrogen bonds are continually breaking and reforming at timescales faster than 200 femtoseconds."
 
This link from same page shows the vibrational spectra of liquid water, and the chart depicted there may be of interest:
 
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html

 
We are no doubt standing on the tip of the iceberg here, below us are a massive amount of parameters to be taken into consideration.
Among all the different parameters to consider we have for example the three dimensional crystal structure of the liquid phase of water, which is a big chapter in itself.
 
As far as I am concerned, correctly implemented resonance geometry is the key to HHO. But if it was as simple as the frequency directly related to the diameter of the water molecule, many before us would have found the key long ago. No, be prepared for a much longer journey, much deeper down into the mystery of water, if you want to succeed in what everybody else on earth hitherto have failed to find.
 
Take a look at the phenomenon of resonance itself and ask yourself why reverbration phenomena is found everywhere, from the macro level and expressed as nodes all the way down to the Planck scale. I regard resonance in all its forms as reflections of the source dynamics responsible for the very existence of matter itself. It is like echoes from the zero point geometry.
 
Resonce patterns reflects the innermost qualities of time, space and matter.

Yes, resonance certainly is the key, and the intricate design of the resonance pattern needed to open up the HHO door remains to be found. And just like a perfect musical composition, the instruments has to be perfectly tuned for the key to work.
 

The HHO path is an unparalleled adventure in the alternative energy quest, when the key is found, energy will be abundant and the monetary system will dissolve and humanity take its first steps into true freedom.
 

Gwandau

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TechStuf

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 07:16:40 AM »
Quote
The HHO path is an unparalleled adventure in the alternative energy quest, when the key is found, energy will be abundant and the monetary system will dissolve and humanity take its first steps into true freedom

Poetic!  Naive.  But poetic!

First, the HHO path is a much paralleled adventure.  Thus far, all alternative energy adventures have largely run parallel courses....and who ends up holding the keys?  And as for the monetary system, it is already insolvent, so only the illusion of the system remains, and it too dissolves as we speak.  Does one really think that the myriad rocket equipped drones being manufactured at a frenetic pace, the millions of rounds of ammo purchased by the DHS, the many piles of plastic FEMA coffins, and the many road signs reading: "Martial law in effect" are just for show, or just in case?  The powers that be aren't waiting around for the keys to a 'molecular savior', as they have proven that they have all the toys they can handle (and then some) in order to 'handle' those their hypocritical eyes identify as unfit for their long planned new odor of things.

And as for humanity taking it's first steps into 'true freedom', I would remind one that man has a sordid history of trampling myriad 'free gifts' into the mud from which he came.  And only seems to appreciate, if for a short time, just the costly ones.
 
Free energy?  Look at what it's cost so far....and who (as foretold) holds the power at this late hour.

As for the the True steps to True Freedom, there aren't many left to take, and they all lead to the feet of Jesus Christ. 

Free energy and True freedom combined.

"They will cry peace! Peace! when there is no peace"  "Wars and the rumors of war".

"I come not to bring peace, but a sword!"

So, Whose side do you fight for, dear reader, your own? The enemies of God, or will you stand with the One Who believes in you more than you could possibly believe in Him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc



TS

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 05:09:58 PM »
Hi pauldude000,
 
glad to se you also are intrigued by the mystery of water and its hidden promise of abundant energy.
 
 
Water molecules are V-shaped with a molecular diameter ranging from about 2.75 Å (275 picometers), or more clearly, having the shape of a triangle with 2 sides measuring 95pm and one side measuring156pm.

The reason for differing values 275 versus 156 pm lies in the variation due to the vibrational condition of the water molecule quoted from link below:
 
"The actual values depend on the vibrational state of the molecule with even values of 180° being attainable during high order bend vibrations (v2 >= 7, λ < 900 nm) for the H-O-H angle. Vibrations are asymmetric around the mean positions. In the ground state, the bond angle is 104.5°.The atomic diameter can be determined from interpolation of the effective ionic radii of the isoelectronic ions (from crystal data) of O2- (2.80 Å), OH- (2.74 Å) and H3O+ (2.76 Å) . Coincidentally, this diameter is similar to the length of a hydrogen bond. The water molecule bond length is 0.96 Å."

As you can see I found a nice page with easily accessed information regarding the unique properties of water. I highly recommend anyone exploring the HHO path to get in depth aqquainted with the mysterious molecule before applying any ideas in the workshop.
 
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html

This is very intriguing:
"In the liquid state, in spite of 80% of the electrons being concerned with bonding, the three atoms do not stay together as the hydrogen atoms are constantly exchanging between water molecules due to protonation/deprotonation processes." "The hydrogen bonds are continually breaking and reforming at timescales faster than 200 femtoseconds."
 
This link from same page shows the vibrational spectra of liquid water, and the chart depicted there may be of interest:
 
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html

 
We are no doubt standing on the tip of the iceberg here, below us are a massive amount of parameters to be taken into consideration.
Among all the different parameters to consider we have for example the three dimensional crystal structure of the liquid phase of water, which is a big chapter in itself.
 
As far as I am concerned, correctly implemented resonance geometry is the key to HHO. But if it was as simple as the frequency directly related to the diameter of the water molecule, many before us would have found the key long ago. No, be prepared for a much longer journey, much deeper down into the mystery of water, if you want to succeed in what everybody else on earth hitherto have failed to find.
 
Take a look at the phenomenon of resonance itself and ask yourself why reverbration phenomena is found everywhere, from the macro level and expressed as nodes all the way down to the Planck scale. I regard resonance in all its forms as reflections of the source dynamics responsible for the very existence of matter itself. It is like echoes from the zero point geometry.
 
Resonce patterns reflects the innermost qualities of time, space and matter.

Yes, resonance certainly is the key, and the intricate design of the resonance pattern needed to open up the HHO door remains to be found. And just like a perfect musical composition, the instruments has to be perfectly tuned for the key to work.
 

The HHO path is an unparalleled adventure in the alternative energy quest, when the key is found, energy will be abundant and the monetary system will dissolve and humanity take its first steps into true freedom.
 

Gwandau


Gwandau.


Thank you for the info I asked for. I am considering the resonance aspect towards the molecular length to achieve mechanical resonance as close to Q as possible. I want to try inducing the vibration by treating the molecule as an antenna, so to speak and hitting it with a resonating electrical pulse.


I do not want a resonating large scale electromagnetic field, as that could theoretically be quite dangerous to anyone close, as we are a large percentage water in our own construction. However direct pulse or induced electrostatic fields between two plates are open game.


Sonic vibration for a direct mechanical resonation may well be almost as dangerous as the electromagnetic fields due to undesired reflection.


I see several ways to possibly go about this.


However, when talking resonance, almost everyone ignores Tesla who pioneered the concept. Resonance means nothing unless energy is placed at a desired point for a reason.


Quarter wave or three quarter wave resonance places the available energy at one end or the other of an antenna. Half wave and full wave neutralize the effect, placing the energy at either in the middle of the antenna, or at two equidistant nodes on the antenna.


For our purposes, half wave and full wave resonance are undesirable as they are inherently stable and not destructive resonances due to a lack of energy imbalance within the system. We need an energy imbalance upon the molecule, so that it will naturally throw off the hydrogen atoms at the ends. I see the possibility of two frequencies needed to keep the ions from just grabbing another free hydrogen atom and reforming. One frequency aimed at the hydrogen molecule itself, and the other aimed at an OH ion.


This should destabilize both, and lead to prevention of spontaneous molecule reformation.


The question is has a systematic approach from the molecule up ever been tried?


Offline Gwandau

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 10:08:06 PM »
pauldude000,
 
I've heard about a Dr. Andrija Puharich, and Keely of course, but there seems to be no validated scientific papers on the works of these persons.
 
Dr. Puharich introduced an alternating current at a key frequency of 600 cycles per second. A barrel-shaped cavity contained the water in Puharich's system. 
The cavity resonated with the impulses in somewhat the same way the body of a violin resonates with the sound of one string, adding higher and lower harmonics to the principal tone. The additional harmonics, Puharich says, cause the proton in the hydrogen atom TO ROTATE, further forcing the hydrogen to split from the oxygen.
 
Keely, who was using accoustic sound, claimed that water can be progressively dissociated at 620, 630 and 12,000 cycles per second. These are on the molecular, atomic and etheric levels respectively.
 

Besides that, the only systematic approaches on the academic level I have heard of are concerned with either thermochemical or photocatalythic methodology,
besides some scientific off road experiments with ultra sound and radiowaves, the former still only causing mediocre increases in hydrogen production,
the latter ones spending just as much energy as oldfashioned electrolysis.
 
Of course there are a lot of guys doing wild experiments in their garages, but I honestly doubt we will hit the sweet spot by mere trial and error.
The parameters involved in bonding the water molecule are just a bit too complex to allow any one striking gold by merely fiddling with sequential PWM:s and the like.
 
Your approach seems to be quite careful and receptive, and the idea of subjecting the molecule to two frequencies sounds interesting.
A lot of interesting alternatives comes to my mind, like using one of the frequencies as a carrier frequency and so forth.
 
I'm going to walk this adventurous path myself as soon as my new workshop is installed this spring, and among the different areas of experimentation planned,
splitting water research is by far the most thrilling of them all for some reason, and I get vitalized just by thinking about it.
 

Gwandau

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 10:08:06 PM »
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Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2013, 03:15:04 AM »
I am going to have to generate some skull sweat and write a program, when I have time, to determine frequencies based upon the info you provided. I will probably generate data for 1/4 wavelength frequencies etc..


Might do a full write-up with beat frequencies, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full wavelengths and 1/3, 2/3 dis-harmonics in both centimeters and inches, meters and feet.


That part will at least be somewhat simple though time consuming.


Anyone interested in the data when I am done?


I could probably provide a copy of the program as well (visualbasic 2010 and .net) if interested. I think I still have a file upload site available. Cost is the best if I get it running correctly and polished... free.

Offline MasterPlaster

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2013, 05:33:22 AM »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2013, 05:33:22 AM »
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Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2013, 12:31:42 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEBGI198CmQ


Interesting video. Thank you very much. I had never heard of this man before.


One thing that many fail to realize is that chemical interactions can produce massive amounts of energy, without much actual energy being put in. I will give an example.


The US gov hires a contractor company to make plastic explosive. The company combines various chemicals in various proportions under various processes to make the material. It then gives this material to the Gov, and it uses said material for various destructive or constructive purposes. However, the grand total energy used to make the material is far less than the work done by the material when it is used. A tiny amount of this material does a huge amount of work.


The same is true for many such materials. It might be noted that it uses probably no more energy to make a pound of such material as a gallon of gasoline or motor oil.


I have heard the arguments concerning the amount of energy to purify the materials etc.... But I also note that the energy required to dig iron and copper, purify it, and form it into parts and assemble them into a generator is never accounted for in generating electricity either. :)


The dude in the video is actually proposing something very similar to my concept, but not quite.


It is a resonant based system, but he is basing it upon low frequency resonance which would make Tesla shake his head. There is a reason Tesla was after high frequency, and it was energy... power. Think literally.


P=IV right? Well:
P= dW/dt.... Joules/time in seconds.
W(Joules)=1/2(CV^2).... C is capacitance in farads and V is voltage.


Say you have a capacitor of .03 mfd at 30kv. The capacitor then holds 13.5 Joules of energy when charged. Not much energy right?


http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.php


I now discharge this energy into a resonant circuit at a frequency in hertz (cycles per second) and each pulse will have a power of P=dW/dt


http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Joule_to_Watt_Calculator.htm


1 Hz = 13.5 watts
10 Hz = 135 watts
100 Hz = 1350 watts
1 KHz = 13,500 watts
10 Khz = 135,000 watts
100 Khz = 1,350,000 watts
1 Mhz = 13,500,000 watts
10 Mhz = 135,000,000 watts
100 Mhz = 1,350,000,000 watts


The difference of watt output over time changes greatly linearly with frequency. That is why Tesla desired higher and higher frequencies, as he could achieve greater and greater power levels. It is the same concept as used to make ultra powerful pulsed lasers. PULSES of mindblowing amounts of power.


With a tiny .01 mfd capacitor and an applied voltage of only 30kV in a circuit (close of resistance to zero as possible), a sudden discharge of that energy  in .000001 sec (one pulse at 100 Mhz) yields 1.35 Gigawatts of power........


At resonant frequency of 600Hz as used in the video, the same circuit would yield pulses of a lousy 225 watts. The harmonic resonant frequencies would share the power limitation as they are always lower power than the main input frequency. If he kicked the circuit up to just 6 Khz he would have decent pulses of 2.25 Kilowatts.


Think plastic explosive verses an equal amount of solar energy shining on the face of the earth in consideration of P=dW/dt. Somewhat of an exaggeration I know, but it puts things into perspective. The sunlight will warm the area, while the plastic will vaporize part of it.


That massive burst of energy can accomplish more than the same energy expended over a long period of time.




Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2013, 12:59:39 PM »
Another thing to think about, which I did not address above is this:

http://www.convertunits.com/from/coulomb/to/ampere-second

All I need to provide the circuit is 30,000v with .00045 Coulombs (Amp-seconds) of charge to keep the circuit at a constant 13.5 Joules, irrespective of duty cycle.

IE 30kV at 450uA, or 13.5 watts/hour (P=IV). Doable with a car ignition coil.....  ;D :-X

Offline Gwandau

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2013, 09:15:07 PM »
It is a resonant based system, but he is basing it upon low frequency resonance which would make Tesla shake his head. There is a reason Tesla was after high frequency, and it was energy... power. Think literally.


37 minutes into his speech Dr. Andrija Puharich is referring to a 22.3 GHz effect created within the coaxial container, so his system seems to incorporate high frequencies as well.
 
Gwandau
 
 
 

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2013, 09:15:07 PM »
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Offline MasterPlaster

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2013, 09:31:01 PM »

Hello Paul. By starting this thread you re-ignited my interest in the subject. I have decided to start my research with a clean slate. All I can tell you is Puharich was a real scientist you can easily read about his life.

For the moment I am going to assume he was not doing a psyop on behalf of his handlers. But despite his willingness to divulge his discoveries, no detailed documents are available. In the video I believe he said he had to finalize some issues.

For the moment I am going to take his word.
A significant point he said was likening the output stage of the coil to a Tesla system.

Here is Puharich's patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4394230?dq=puharich&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA

Notice that he is referencing Steven Horvath:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4107008?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw

Also he is referenced by Meyer:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4798661?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw

So, I think these may be legitimate sources to follow.
I am very skeptical of people suddenly jumping in with false knowledge. So the credential of anyone quoted must be verified.


Some additional notes:
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/puharich.htm

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2013, 12:01:58 AM »

37 minutes into his speech Dr. Andrija Puharich is referring to a 22.3 GHz effect created within the coaxial container, so his system seems to incorporate high frequencies as well.
 
Gwandau


In a harmonic system it should. I would imagine it was rich with harmonic frequencies extending across the entire scale. The problem is that the input frequency determines the power of the harmonics. The less input power in a given pulse frequency, the less power in each harmonic wave pulse. The closer to the main input frequency, the stronger the harmonic frequency. In reality the harmonics are much weaker than the input.


Consider it in this manner. At 600hz with the proposed 30kV and .03uF capacitor with the 13.5 joules available, 225 watts happen with each pulse. No harmonic will approach or surpass this 225 watt pulse. It limits the system. At 60Khz the same 13.5 Joules yields a whopping 22.5kW per pulse, and the harmonics may well be putting out more than the previous 225 watts. You see the issue?


As to the design resonance, the system should be designed to resonate at as high a frequency as possible, yet still remain on wavelength resonant for the goal frequency. The ideal situation is to aim for the goal frequency, and have the maximum of power right on target, but considering in our case a 1/4 wavelength in the picometers, it is simply not possible with what tech we have the ability to bring to the table.


Therefore we have to hit a harmonic as close as possible to the goal frequency, with as much energy per pulse as possible to deliver as much energy as possible to said goal frequency harmonic. That is the tough part which is often overlooked.


Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2013, 12:22:37 AM »
Hello Paul. By starting this thread you re-ignited my interest in the subject. I have decided to start my research with a clean slate. All I can tell you is Puharich was a real scientist you can easily read about his life.

For the moment I am going to assume he was not doing a psyop on behalf of his handlers. But despite his willingness to divulge his discoveries, no detailed documents are available. In the video I believe he said he had to finalize some issues.

For the moment I am going to take his word.
A significant point he said was likening the output stage of the coil to a Tesla system.

Here is Puharich's patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4394230?dq=puharich&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA

Notice that he is referencing Steven Horvath:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4107008?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw

Also he is referenced by Meyer:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4798661?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw

So, I think these may be legitimate sources to follow.
I am very skeptical of people suddenly jumping in with false knowledge. So the credential of anyone quoted must be verified.


Some additional notes:
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/puharich.htm


That is why I don't claim to be anyone, as I am not.  ???


Thank you for the patent refs. I heard of Stan Meyer along time back. Thought it was interesting, but I was working on the Steven Marks TPU concept at the time. A lot can be learned from patents, though much can be hidden with them as well.


EDIT ADDED:


P.S. that is kewl. A friend of mine who does not want to be on the radar piqued my interest in this subject as well back when I was still working on the TPU. However, I was more into electromagnetic resonance and pure electrical effects than what I considered physical approaches, so never applied myself to the subject with any real thought or diligence. It has been only recently that the concept hit me, after realizing the TPU concept was inherently dangerous, that the two fields should overlap. A molecule, or an atom with electron holes in the shells, is just another conductor. Any conductor which is longer than it is wide can be considered as an antenna which will resonate at a specific frequency. Any antenna can be attenuated for 1/4 wave Q, no matter the length.


It breaks down to a mathematical logic problem at that point.


I cannot guarantee to anyone that my approach will work. I just know logically that it SHOULD work. The basic logical principle is not new, and is commonly used for various purposes.

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2013, 01:01:39 AM »
@Gwandau


Puharich may well have been dumping more energy in than expected. Thanks to the patent link Master provided, I looked over the patent. What caught my eye was the waveforms he was using. He was using a 600hz AC CARRIER wave. That changes things quite a bit. This carrier was inter-modulated with a much higher frequency.


Wasteful of power if you ask me, but it would work. I say wasteful as the main carrier would still have the lion share of the pulse power. However a significant percentage of the power would also be present in the higher frequency pulses which would increase the harmonic power somewhat as well.


In a way, I conceptually like how he approached it.




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Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2013, 02:01:23 AM »
@Master


I cannot make heads or tails from the Horvath patent. It appears to be a high refinement of a simpler initial device, many of which were abandoned. It appears to combine mechanical and electrical resonance, but that is just a guess. I have no clue, as it is far too complex a system to even hazard a realistic guess.


The Meyers patent tells me he was on to something. Something about the wave-forms smack of a high voltage resonance approach. The pulsed DC would yield high energies. I wonder though how he managed to reduce the inductive reluctance and capacitive reactance in the circuit at the higher frequencies to achieve such a waveform, as both add apparent resistance in the circuit forcing a longer time constant in the P=dW/dt equation.


He would have to neutralize by running the system at Q.


VERY interesting indeed, though I think the "laser" aspect was in fact a red herring. Maybe not, but I think so.


EDIT ADDED:


There is a way to test the idea of "lasers" (what he was actually showing in the patent was leds), or sound, or anything else for that matter. Stress the molecules using ordinary DC electrolysis. Apply the other source of energy, and look for any increase whatsoever in output. Even a minuscule increase validates the concept.

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2013, 02:01:23 AM »

 

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