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Author Topic: Banned yet again!  (Read 10376 times)

Offline Tom Booth

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Banned yet again!
« on: January 29, 2013, 09:23:55 PM »
Boy science forums these days are so open minded.

I think I have been banned or locked out of three forums in the past year or two.

I don't make trouble. Try not to anyway.

I was just about to make another post to a science forum discussion and discovered the forum was locked. So, if nobody minds, if anyone thinks it interesting or worthwhile we could continue it here. So this was going to be my post to that now locked thread. If you want the background. Go here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=667129

---------------------------------

Doesn't this suggest to anyone here something that could be done with the "cold plate" of a High COP heat pump ?


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Banned yet again!
« on: January 29, 2013, 09:23:55 PM »

Offline Tom Booth

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2013, 09:47:52 PM »
I really think what got the forum locked was not some mention of "perpetual motion" but this close to the last post I made. Though I'd been skating on thin ice for a while anyway.

Quote
I'm sorry but personally I think these kinds of calculations are a waste of time and entirely meaningless, irrelevant, misleading and frankly ridiculous.

As I said before, your using Carnot efficiency on a scale of absolute zero. Its nonsensical.

We are talking about an engine running on ambient heat. "Free" heat all around us in the air. A virtually unlimited supply that is renewed on a daily basis by the sun and will never run out until the sun itself burns out.

Lets take a "real world" example. Not really "REAL" just using real numbers in a hypothetical situation.

Lets say I build an experimental engine that runs on hot air and it works.

I set up hot air solar panels to help concentrate the heat for the engine. I even set up a heat pump along with the solar panels to add more heat on cloudy days.

The engine takes off. It draws in hot air and blows out cold air and generates electricity. I even set up duct work to use the cold air from the engine to air condition my house.

Day after day goes by and it keeps running day and night. I notice that the heat pump is redundant as it never goes on. It wasn't needed.

I'm sitting pretty. All the free energy I can use.

One day the wind blows my solar collector over. I didn't even notice because the engine kept running just the same without it. Still producing electricity. But now the air conditioning is way too cold.

Earlier I measured the heat in the solar panels at an average of 200 degrees Fahrenheit.

The engine was always utilizing 100% of all the heat the solar panels could produce and sometimes then some. Exhausting cold air into the house at a comfortable 60 degree Fahrenheit, even on balmy summer days.

Now with the solar panels destroyed I take new measurements. The engine is now drawing in 60 degree Fahrenheit ambient air directly. I'm shocked to see that the exhaust is now negative 30 degrees Fahrenheit. Thirty degrees below zero! No wonder the house was getting so damn cold.

What is the theoretical "Carnot Efficiency" of this little miracle engine ?

Unfortunately, I know, the thing didn't cool the air all the way down to absolute zero and the whole apparatus didn't disappear reducing itself to a single Bose-Einstein Condensate particle in the process so it can't be 100% efficient at removing every last drop of heat so that the exhaust air was colder than the dark side of the moon or deep interstellar space.

I'm a little fuzzy on the math and the conversion between Fahrenheit and Kelvin and all that technical stuff.

Based on the data. The "Th" and "Tc". all that complicated math stuff that's all Greek to me anyway.

What's the Carnot efficiency of this engine before and after the destruction of my solar collector ?

It is actually a very simple calculation. I was just trying to make a point.

Rather than make the calculation and post the results the discussion was locked soon thereafter. I waited several hours to see if there would be any response. Made a few more posts before going to bed. When I returned today the thread was locked.

The results I get using the standard formula for Carnot efficiency BTW is:

21% efficiency with the solar collectors attached to the engine.

17% after the solar collectors were removed.

My point being. It is completely ridiculous and misleading to try and apply Carnot efficiency numbers to this kind of machine. The result is practically meaningless or at best, completely misleading.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline jbignes5

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2013, 11:00:55 PM »
 
 
 What you got from those guys are the usual cop fight they always spew.
 
 Listen the heat in any space period is heat. If you have a heat pump the heat transfer is inside of the heat pump and not outside of it. Yes it sucks heat from the exposed coils on the input side but it is not connected to the resevior as they put it. it is still a source of heat. The pump works irregauardless of what they say.
 
 So your analogy was perfect. The problem is when they get these questions they must answer the way they do or otherwise it creates "PROBLEMS" within their community. So they will always resort to semantics with the terminology and side step the real reason.
 
 Tesla was absolutely correct. We have the perfect engine to do this and I suggest if you insulated the intemediatory piping you could gain benefits like you are suggesting and it will absolutely work. What is the heat engine gonna be?
 
 Several ideas come to mind.
 
 Nitinol metal<-changes heat and cold to motion
 peltier <changes heat and cold to electrical current
 
 In a refridgerator the heat pump sucks heat from the insulated interior and radiates it out in the condenser coil. That will work no matter where the resevoirs are. But you will increase the effect by cooling plates mounted on either side of a peltier unit insulated on all sides but the plates. The plates are on either side of the peltier units. weather or not you can get efficient enough peltier units is the question. But you idea has merit. Keep at it.
 
 Also since I can not post to that thread because it was locked here is another bad idea that guy had about heat pipes. Heat pipes work. Why6 because they radiate to a larger surface area. It doesn't matter in the least what the internal cpu tower temp either since all they need is to have the cpu or video cpu cooled. It works and works well.
 
 In fact you could use the heat pipe technology with no pump to work better because there is zero input to be used to get the action to work. You do need heat at a higher point then the radiated heat though. It's just a way to take concentrated heat and spread it out so that the ambient (larger area) can be radiated into. It does need a source of heat to kickstart it, to make the difference in potentials for the transfer to happen.
 
 Heat pipes work on condensing and evaporation of a fluid in a sealed pipe, usually copper. Wicks are used inside of the copper pipe to facilitate condensing surfaces and directional flow of the fluid to the heat source end of the pipe. a heat pipe would be passive though and the output less.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 12:36:46 PM »
I have also been thinking that the guys at physicsforums.com do not want to get into trouble. The main problem, I think, is that they misinterpret our intentions. We have openly said several times in that forum that this is not about perpetual motion or over unity - just a design which harness the heat from the air-reservoire (Which happens to be pretty large).


It does somewhat seem reasonable those explanations I got from them, but after thinking twice, those explanations is not about the actual concept. Probably because they haven't been able to imagine the design, and how it is suppose to work.


However, please let me try to explain this design using a simpler model.


Say you have a gerotor design. As the rotor rotates, air pockets at one side expands and the other side compress. By itself this is sufficient to make a heat engine by heating one side and cooling the other side.


Now take this design, and put a motor on it so the compression side heats up, and the expansion side cools down. This is now a heat pump. Place both pump and engine side by side so heat from the pump is transferred from the compression side of the engine into the expanding side of the heat engine. Let the other side be both in open air.


What happens then?
In a lossless design, both pump and engine share the same temperature at the hot side. However, the cold sides are not having the same temperatures, but slightly hotter on the compression side of the engine, and slightly cooler on the expanding side of the pump. Thus it will be harder to run the pump than the energy output from the heat engine can deliver - because the temperature difference in the pump is greater than the temperature difference in the engine. We need the opposite scenario, and how can that be accomplished?


Attached there is an image of the heat engine. The opposite of the pump which is hot on the right and cool at the left.


Vidar


Offline Airstriker

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2013, 03:31:31 PM »
Boy science forums these days are so open minded.

I think I have been banned or locked out of three forums in the past year or two.

I don't make trouble. Try not to anyway.

I was just about to make another post to a science forum discussion and discovered the forum was locked. So, if nobody minds, if anyone thinks it interesting or worthwhile we could continue it here. So this was going to be my post to that now locked thread. If you want the background. Go here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=667129

---------------------------------

Doesn't this suggest to anyone here something that could be done with the "cold plate" of a High COP heat pump ?


I've made all the way through the locked thread and think it could have looked a bit better if you'd posted the Tesla's article. Can I ask you to post this one here ? Thx in advance.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2013, 03:31:31 PM »
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Offline Tom Booth

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2013, 07:39:29 PM »

I've made all the way through the locked thread and think it could have looked a bit better if you'd posted the Tesla's article. Can I ask you to post this one here ? Thx in advance.

Of course,

If anyone there on that forum was not already familiar with it, all they needed to do is ask. (As you have) My assumption is, they already knew of the article or simply didn't want to know, didn't care or had no curiosity, or perhaps thought I was just making it up, I don't know.

Anyway, the name of the article is "The Problem of Increasing Human Energy" by Nikola Tesla.

It can be found online here:

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1900-06-00.htm

Or here:

http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_art09.html

The part relevant to this discussion more or less starts at the heading  :

"ENERGY FROM THE MEDIUM--THE WINDMILL AND THE SOLAR ENGINE,--MOTIVE POWER FROM TERRESTRIAL HEAT--ELECTRICITY FROM NATURAL SOURCES."

That is just a general discussion, It gets more specific in the next section:

"A DEPARTURE FROM KNOWN METHODS--POSSIBILITY OF A "SELF-ACTING" ENGINE OR MACHINE, INANIMATE, YET CAPABLE, LIKE A LIVING BEING, OF DERIVING ENERGY FROM THE MEDIUM--THE IDEAL WAY OF OBTAINING MOTIVE POWER."

His basic idea is that because a heat engine transmutes heat into other forms of energy, if a heat engine were operating on ambient heat, it would take little energy to maintain an artificial sink. In fact he suggests that the energy of the heat that does reach the sink could be "lifted up" by its own energy.

Essentially, it does not take any energy to maintain cold.

I think that this basic principle or idea has been demonstrated to be true recently.

http://www.theimagingsource.biz/en/technology/ambientheatelectricity/

That little chip may not be a mechanical heat engine but as far as I'm concerned, what is true in principle is true just the same.

"This technology proves that cooling does not require the input of external energy."

Which is, I think, exactly what Tesla was driving at.

This is true even in a heat pump. All the energy used to drive a heat pump is used to compress the gas or fluid to reach a high temperature. If the heat is then used, or used up, or simply thrown away, as in a refrigerator, that is basically the extent of the energy input requirement.

The cold produced is a consequence. When the gas is released, it is now cold due to the heat having been used or removed, but the production of this cold does not require any additional energy input. In fact, if the gas or refrigerant, or air or whatever that was compressed is released from pressure through an expansion piston or turbine, some of the energy used in compression can be reclaimed. The result is ADDITIONAL COOLING along with a production of useable energy output from the turbine.

Cooling is the inevitable consequence of utilizing heat, that is, converting the heat into another form of energy. The result is useable energy like electricity. The cooling is consequential and does not require energy input.

The second law of thermodynamics was developed in the era of the steam engine. If it has been superseded than I see no point in intelligent adults baring discussion of that reality and hiding their heads in the sand.

Offline Tom Booth

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2013, 08:29:34 PM »

It does somewhat seem reasonable those explanations I got from them, but after thinking twice, those explanations is not about the actual concept. Probably because they haven't been able to imagine the design, and how it is suppose to work.


However, please let me try to explain this design using a simpler model.


Say you have a gerotor design. As the rotor rotates, air pockets at one side expands and the other side compress. By itself this is sufficient to make a heat engine by heating one side and cooling the other side.


Now take this design, and put a motor on it so the compression side heats up, and the expansion side cools down. This is now a heat pump. Place both pump and engine side by side so heat from the pump is transferred from the compression side of the engine into the expanding side of the heat engine. Let the other side be both in open air.


What happens then?
In a lossless design, both pump and engine share the same temperature at the hot side. However, the cold sides are not having the same temperatures, but slightly hotter on the compression side of the engine, and slightly cooler on the expanding side of the pump. Thus it will be harder to run the pump than the energy output from the heat engine can deliver - because the temperature difference in the pump is greater than the temperature difference in the engine. We need the opposite scenario, and how can that be accomplished?


Attached there is an image of the heat engine. The opposite of the pump which is hot on the right and cool at the left.


Vidar

The problem there is that you are trying to use the HEAT from the heat pump to run the engine. This is a loosing battle and not what Tesla was suggesting at all.

Ambient heat is freely available, there is no real need to augment it, just use it directly.

To run a conventional mechanical heat engine you need a temperature difference, that is COLD or a heat sink.

If you first create an ARTIFICIAL heat sink or "cold hole" as Tesla described it, then you can run your engine. The engine however does not simply transfer heat INTO the heat sink. The heat is converted or transmuted into some other form of energy. Only some fraction of the heat utilized then, actually reaches the sink, the rest is converted.

The HOT side of your heat engine is AMBIENT HEAT. The cold side is the ARTIFICIAL HEAT SINK or COLD HOLE.

All the heat pump has to do then is pump the "waste heat" out of the "COLD HOLE".

That heat removed from the sink could be used to pre-heat cold water going to a hot water tank. So the heat pump doesn't necessarily have to dump the heat back to ambient or back to the engine. That probably would not work in the long run, as you are again trying to drive the "waste" heat too far back uphill. It is too much work for the heat pump to drive heat back uphill to the engine. Better to just dump the waste heat into some cold water. You don't need it to run the engine anyway. It would be better to use it for something else like heating cold water, then the heat pump would work much more efficiently.

As Tesla stated "Thus the virtue of the principle I have discovered resides wholly in the conversion of the energy on the downward flow."

Downward from Ambient that is. You don't need the heat pump to make heat to run the engine by increasing ambient temperature. It runs on Ambient heat as-is. The heat pump is just used to get rid of or remove the "waste heat" that may get into the artificial heat sink or "cold hole".

The heat pump is not used to MAKE heat, it just has to get rid of whatever percentage of heat is not converted by the engine. Move it out.

So the HOT side of the heat pump is not attached to hot side of the heat engine. The cold side of the heat pump, rather, is attached to the heat sink for engine. The hot side of the heat pump is "Waste heat" that can be dumped wherever.

Theoretically, you could send the waste heat back to the hot (or ambient) side of the engine, but I don't think that that would be very practical. It is less work on the heat pump if the heat is just dumped somewhere, like into cold water. Pumping "waste heat" back up and into what is already an unlimited reservoir of heat would just be mostly a waste of time and energy and would make the heat pump have to work much harder than necessary.

The heat pump should only have a relatively small amount of waste heat to remove anyway, if the heat engine is efficient. The engine doesn't really need the "waste heat". It has plenty of heat taken directly from the ambient. It's running directly on ambient heat. Putting a small amount of waste heat back on the hot side of the engine COULD be done, and that might work but it would not be as efficient as just dumping the waste heat into some cold water if it was available.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2013, 08:29:34 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2013, 12:46:54 PM »
Thanks for the explanation. I think I see more clear what you suggest, and will look more into this.


I started reading the article, but it was SO MUCH text about practically "bla-bla-bla". I will focus on the headings you suggested, and read more closely.


Vidar





Offline Tom Booth

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2013, 05:33:05 PM »
Thinking about this a little more, I may have been wrong about dumping the "waste heat" into cold water.

The alternative of raising it back up to run the engine might work just as well.

Here is the situation, hypothetically.

First create an artificial "cold hole", basically an insulated freezer compartment, perhaps enclosing a cold block of steel.

You could now run a heat engine between the temperature difference between ambient heat and the "cold hole". But here is what is important to keep in mind. The engine uses the temperature difference to convert heat into electricity or "work", or mechanical motion. The heat is converted, so in the process of running, the engine does not transfer heat from ambient to the cold hole so much as CREATE COLD by transmuting the heat into another form.

So in other words, if you use a heat pump to keep the cold hole cold and remove whatever "waste heat" gets into it, the heat pump should only have to run intermittently. That is, as the engine runs, the "waste heat" will gradually accumulate in the "cold hole" and the temperature of the "cold hole" will gradually rise. When the temperature rises enough the heat pump will kick in for a few moments to remove the accumulated waste heat and then kick off again.

Now if the engine is primarily running on ambient heat, when the heat pump kicks in, if the hot side is attached to the ambient side of the engine, the "waste heat" will raise the temperature of the ambient side. The engine will get a temporary boost of energy from the heat pump as the waste heat is being removed.

So in other words, the waste heat is literally removed, as Tesla suggested, by being lifted up by its own energy.

Once the waste heat is removed, the heat pump kicks off and the heat engine returns to normal operation. Running directly on ambient heat.

Offline Tom Booth

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2013, 06:16:08 PM »
Let me try to explain the problem in another way:

Lets say that after 10 hours of operation excess waste heat accumulates in the sink or "cold hole" and must be removed. The heat pump kicks in and removes the heat in 20 minutes.

If you have the heat engine and heat pump coupled together and are trying to run the heat pump ALL THE TIME to supply heat to the engine, what happens after the heat pump runs for twenty minutes and all the waste heat has been removed ?

For the next 9 hours and ten minutes the heat pump is just struggling to remove heat from a heat sink where there is no heat. It would just be spinning its wheels and accomplishing nothing.

Simply strapping a heat pump to a heat engine would not work for that reason if both are running continuously or if the heat engine DEPENDS UPON the continual delivery of heat from the heat pump.

The heat engine is continually converting heat to some other form of energy by turning an electric generator for instance. Little heat is getting into the sink, so to run the heat pump continuously to remove heat that isn't there just wastes energy and you end up in a situation like the guys on the other forum said. You would be using all the energy from the engine just to run the heat pump with nothing left over.

The heat pump would only have to run briefly. Continuing to run it after it has removed the waste heat would accomplish nothing.

This is more or less just like a household freezer. It doesn't have to run 24/7, just a few hours a day. If the heat engine were not converting the heat but just transferring it  to the sink, then yes, the heat pump would have to run all the time, but as Tesla pointed out HEAT is NOT a fluid, like water going over a water wheel. It is energy that a heat engine converts into something else.

A heat pump can't remove heat that isn't there. So it only needs to run occasionally so that a sufficient amount of waste heat can accumulate so that there is something for it to do.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2013, 06:16:08 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2013, 09:11:35 PM »
Tom,


Have you done any calculations on this?


I think, if the heat pump removes heat from a cold hole, the lower the temperature is in the cold hole the harder it is for the pump to run. The (after a while) very high pressure in the heated side of the pump will fight back on the pump so much you'll probably need much input work to run it.


So I have a suggestion: Have you seen the thread "Alternative expansion valve on heat pumps" at physicsforums.com?
I suggest that if the expansion valve is a rotating gerotor which is powered by the pressure, it can deliver parts of the invested energy back into the pump motor in order to increase the efficiency.


Vidar

Offline Tom Booth

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2013, 12:16:39 AM »
Tom,


Have you done any calculations on this?


No, not specifically,

The basic idea is running a heat engine between the ambient heat and the inside of an "ice box".

If the engine is converting the heat passing into the engine, then only some fraction of the heat is getting into the inside of the ice box through the engine, so to keep the ice box cold, the heat pump should only have to run intermittently, like any ordinary ice box or freezer. This is of course just a basic outline of Tesla's theory. Until someone actually tries such a set up, I would be reluctant to simply dismiss it off hand as "impossible".

The problem as I see it is that most conventional freezers have a very high starting torque while a heat engine generally has rather low torque.

What I think I might try using "off the shelf" components would be a conventional freezer, a conventional Stirling engine, batteries and an inverter.

First run the freezer on utility power till it is good and cold. Then start up the Stirling "running on ice" that is, running on the temperature difference between the ambient and the cold inside the freezer. Let the Stirling run a small generator to charger a battery. Connect an inverter to the battery and plug the freezer into the inverter.

The freezer should be as well insulated as possible. Probably better insulated than an off the shelf freezer, but adding extra insulation is not difficult.

Inverters are very efficient these days. have load sensing so they do not draw power unless there is a load and can deliver several times their rated output for heavy start up loads like a compressor.

If the engine then is REALLY running on the AMBIENT HEAT and converting it into electricity to charge the battery and little heat is getting into the freezer. That is, if the engine is running on the unlimited supply of ambient heat rather than "using up the cold" in the freezer, then I would think that such a set up would have no problem maintaining the charge on the batteries and probably also supporting some additional outside load, like powering some lights or appliances.

I'm thinking also that some ultra-capacitors might be better for storing energy than conventional lead acid batteries.

Quote
I think, if the heat pump removes heat from a cold hole, the lower the temperature is in the cold hole the harder it is for the pump to run. The (after a while) very high pressure in the heated side of the pump will fight back on the pump so much you'll probably need much input work to run it.

I don't really see this as a problem, at least not in the set up described here.

What I might try to do though is, if possible, rout the condenser coils of the freezer to the hot (ambient) side of the heat engine. These coils will be HOTTER than ambient while the freezer is running. Therefore the heat engine will gain some additional power (heat on its hot side) while the freezer is running. So the heat being removed from the freezer would supply some of the power for its own removal. Or as Tesla suggested - be "lifted up" out of the "cold hole" by its own energy.

Quote
So I have a suggestion: Have you seen the thread "Alternative expansion valve on heat pumps" at physicsforums.com?
I suggest that if the expansion valve is a rotating gerotor which is powered by the pressure, it can deliver parts of the invested energy back into the pump motor in order to increase the efficiency.

That might be another way of "bootstrapping" such a system but would require a more exotic and possibly more effective cooling system, possibly an "air cycle" system which produces a much greater temperature difference than a conventional freezer. Air cycle systems are generally considered "inefficient", for conventional cooling, primarily because the cold produced is far too extreme for most cooling purposes, (like minus 150 F) and produce a lot of "waste heat" as well (like 400 F) other than cryogenics and the like, but might be just the ticket for this application especially if the "waste" heat produced is also utilized.

About the Air Cycle System:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:MYccl5UojGYJ:www.grimsby.ac.uk/documents/defra/tech-aircycle.pdf+air+cycle+system+cryogenics&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjSyJpE2y6_gKnK2TwlYx3bjo7BcxGYj8hJJOte7tM2ORDY-gQISWoPGrfA_VpUr_T3_FiR93z63Z-Kc0MvW1no05swUETUSAAiHGEtcFCBU4GdUIjXWYaTFKTJVTesVVp4BiBg&sig=AHIEtbSlsRQt5F6kkM6RPl-6_zSZ_ZbTqg

I'm not dismissing your idea of bootstrapping the system to reclaim some energy, it is a good one, but I don't see a build up of heat as a problem, any excess heat  is simply dumped back to ambient as any conventional freezer would do. Some could be used to intermittently boost the power of the heat engine while the freezer is running.


Offline Tom Booth

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2013, 12:43:56 AM »
The second law of thermodynamics in conjuction with Carnot's theorm provides adequate explanation for why such a scheme cannot work. Take the time to understand why and stop wasting time with such pipe dreams

I believe the direct conversion of heat to electricity, leaving a "cold hole" as in nantenna technology proves Carnot and the Second Law wrong, even if it has only been demonstrated on a nano-scale. Wrong is wrong. Time has shown that what can be done on a nano-scale can be done on a macro-scale as well in other departments in time.

Your opinion has been noted, but does not curb my enthusiasm.

The so-called Second "Law" is IMO, no more than a working hypothesis that may hold true in most circumstances but is by no means absolute.
 

Offline Tom Booth

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Re: Banned yet again!
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2013, 01:22:45 AM »
If you had read my comments thoroughly I have already mentioned that nano scale devices may allow quantum tunneling of electrons to break 2LOT.

This is because this law it is actually only a statistical probability, but one that has only vanishingly small chance of being broken at normal scales.

a nantenna, apparently, has been demonstrated to work, apparently, reliably and repeatably. This to me does not seem like "only a vanishingly small chance". So far it may be just a tiny microchip, but there is nothing "chance" about it.

From what little I've read about it apparently the type of high frequency ac current produced is difficult to utilize and so far has just been burned up with a resistor or some such. There doesn't seem to be much information available about it but it does seem that it works and produces a "cold hole" in the ambient and outputs electricity. Even if the electricity cannot be utilized the COLD produced is real enough and constitutes a temperature difference created in the ambient.

Perhaps it would be possible to put thousands of these chips together to create a "heat sink" to run a heat engine on ambient heat even if the electricity from the chips themselves remained useless the temperature difference produced could be valuable on more than a nano-scale.

If you agree that  the 2LOT CAN be broken on a micro scale then I see no reason for your insistence that anyone abandon all hope that it might also be broken on a macro-scale with some ingenuity and application of what is proven or known.

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