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Author Topic: 25mV Joule Thief powered by peltier merely using our body heat -Free energy 24/7  (Read 174785 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Hi magpwr,

Your idea on the copper tube and toroid cores around it reminded me of mainly Russian youtube videos where such transformer assembly was shown BUT there were a multiturn coil around the outer surface of the toroidal cores (because it has a normal cylindrical surface, such as Conrad shows above in his photo too). 
So I think the 100 turn may go onto the outer surface of the toroidal cores put close to each other, the 4 or 5 turn feedback coil would come on top of the 100 turns and the output may come from the thick piece of wire put through the copper tube as shown in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH2TWPJiwEA 

I hope you understand how I mean the 100 turn coil, and I do not mean any extra output from such a transformer could be gained, I just trying to show a variant with the copper tube + toroid core type transformer.  By the way no any extra output is suggested from such "magic" transformer on the Russian sites as far I know.

rgds, Gyula

PS Here is a short video where a coil is shown as wound onto the outside cylindrical surface of a longer toroidal core, see from 0:17 to 0:23 :  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qtVR1LkLSc

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Offline magpwr

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Hi gyulasum and conradelektro,

From the russian demo by looking dates of posting youtube.It looks like original design came from Russia.
But video was not easy to understand,but some in youtubers managed to figured how it works and showed a better demo which is easy to replicate.

I'ts very interesting seeing a bulb lighting from a drill bit or copper pipe or screwdriver version from youtube user "Larskro".
Knowing all this metal got very very low resistance.How did bulb light from a straight metal still pretty much puzzles me with such a low current.

Since i was using the "Larskro's approach" and observed the "double amazing joule thief" video from a other youtubers.
I understand oscillator is needed to "resonate" the copper pipe(very low resistance,low voltage would definately be measured across pipes).Unfortunately i have not got the time to head down to hardware store to get myself copper pipe which toroids could be fittted.

Once i got copper pipe i will start with scaled up version(1.5V) then scale down from there to <100mV .Then figure out if need to stepped voltage from copper wire inside pipe since i believe the output is likely not rectified or DC output.
 
To conradelektro,
Please try higher voltage first 1.5v.Please take note the if your running something inside pipe may need to "insulate straight wire inside,unless it's insulated 14 or 18AWG copper wire" to prevent it from touching the inner walls of pipe like shown in double amazing video.



Offline conradelektro

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To conradelektro,
Please try higher voltage first 1.5v.Please take note the if your running something inside pipe may need to "insulate straight wire inside,unless it's insulated 14 or 18AWG copper wire" to prevent it from touching the inner walls of pipe like shown in double amazing video.

@magpwr: I tried the insulated wire through the copper pipe and Voltages up to 1.5 Volt.

@gyulasum: these strange transformers with toroids over a copper pipe are an interesting thing to explore, but I think they are not suitable for very low Voltage and low power. In the videos which magpwr cites there seem to be quite high currents (several hundred mA) flowing through the circuit. That is why the presenters in the Videos change the 1.5 Volt battery or 1.2 Volt rechargeable battery to have a fresh one.

Transistors ALD110800 and ALD110900:

With an ordinary Joule Thief circuit (bifilar windings over a toroid) I get oscillations down to 0,1 Volt and 10 µA. This is the lowest supply power I have ever seen in a JT (selfstarting). But I can not do much with these oscillations, wherever I place the LED, it will not glow. I will play a bit more with the ALD110800 and ALD110900 transistors.

It seems the ALD110800 and ALD110900 transistors need a connection to the negative rail (pin V-), then they behave well. The very low power consumption seems to stem from the "Drain Source On Resistance" of 500 Ohm. This opens interesting possibilities (one has great freedom with the coil at the Drain without causing too much current through Drain / Source) but also limitations. One also does not need any resistor at the Gate. May be that is bad for making LEDs glow, but for building a very low Voltage and very low power oscillator, this helps a lot.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Some success with the ALD110900 transistor in a Slayer Exciter type circuit:

The ALD110900 just wants to oscillate, no matter how badly matched the coils are.

Look at http://www.youtube.com/user/GBluer ,  GBluer shows in his videos many different Slayer Exciter type circuits and many different coils. I used the toroid I had from the 2SK170 experiments ( 4:100 coils) which is a very bad choice, and still it works fairly well.

See the attached circuit (hardly any components) and the photos. I will wind a tuneable coil (with a Ferrite rod that slides in and out), which should be more suitable for this type of circuit. The toroid dampens the oscillations down to about 100 KHz (due to its high inductance), a Slayer Exciter wants MHz.

The 2SK170 is still better for low Voltage (LED glows at 50 mV), but the 200 mV and 200µA I achieve with the ALD110900 are pretty good (given that it needs no additional components besides the coils, because the 100 µF capacitor is optional).

The ALD110900 pin V- is connected to the negative rail. Note the internal diode from the Gate to the negative rail. In a Slayer Exciter there always has to be "something" (diode, capacitor, inductance) between Gate and negative rail.

Greetings, Conrad


Offline gyulasun

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Hi Conrad,


Data sheet for your ALD MOSFETs says:

"For most applications, connect the V+ pin to the most positive voltage and the V- pins to the most negative voltage in the
system. All other pins must have voltages within these voltage limits at all times."   

I know you mentioned you connected V- pin to the Source which is at the most negative voltage in your schematic and maybe it would be good to connect V+ pin to the positive pole of the supply voltage. Of course this latter is valid for quad device ALD110800 (its V+  is Pin 13) and there is no such V+  pin for the ALD110900.
One more thing: you surely noticed the pins with asterisk symbol as (IC*) and these pins are also recommended to connect to V-  i.e. to the most negative voltage rail.  Such pins for the quad device ALD110800 are Pin 1, 8, 9 and 16 and for the dual device ALD110900 these are Pin 1 and 8.

You mentioned the Drain Source On resistance is 500 Ohm, however this is valid whenever the Gate Source voltage is +4V (at Vds=0.1V). And how well this condition is fulfilled in your shown oscillator circuit, an oscilloscope could be used to see the Gate source AC voltage waves with respect to the Source pin as being the most negative point.
OF course if you connect the dual device in parallel, then you would have about 250 Ohm RdsON and for the quad device this would be about 125 Ohm.

You also mentioned the internal diode between the Gate and the V- pins and it occured to me that while current can only circulate via this internal diode and via the 100 turns coil and via the LED when the induced AC voltage polarity across the 100 turn coil corresponds to the forward direction of both the LED and the internal diode (this is why the LED direction is important) so IN CASE the internal diode is a normal Si diode (albeit a very fast one) the forward voltage drop across it may be at least 0.6V and this lowers the useful voltage that may feed the LED from the total induced AC voltage peak so I wonder if connecting a Germanium or Schottky diode across the Gate Source pins in parallel with the internal diode (anode to anode and cathode to cathode) you may be able to gain some more brightness from the LED. Maybe this extra diode influences oscillation too much and you get just a dimmer LED, well I hope not... and if you agree and feel like testing it, please do. Even another Si diode like 1N914 or 1N4148 might be worth trying if you do not have any Germanium or Schottky diode at hand.

You have very nice results!

rgds,  Gyula

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Offline conradelektro

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Hi Conrad,


Data sheet for your ALD MOSFETs says:

One more thing: you surely noticed the pins with asterisk symbol as (IC*) and these pins are also recommended to connect to V-  i.e. to the most negative voltage rail.  Such pins for the quad device ALD110800 are Pin 1, 8, 9 and 16 and for the dual device ALD110900 these are Pin 1 and 8.

You mentioned the Drain Source On resistance is 500 Ohm, however this is valid whenever the Gate Source voltage is +4V (at Vds=0.1V). And how well this condition is fulfilled in your shown oscillator circuit, an oscilloscope could be used to see the Gate source AC voltage waves with respect to the Source pin as being the most negative point.
OF course if you connect the dual device in parallel, then you would have about 250 Ohm RdsON and for the quad device this would be about 125 Ohm.

You also mentioned the internal diode between the Gate and the V- pins and it occured to me that while current can only circulate via this internal diode and via the 100 turns coil and via the LED when the induced AC voltage polarity across the 100 turn coil corresponds to the forward direction of both the LED and the internal diode (this is why the LED direction is important) so IN CASE the internal diode is a normal Si diode (albeit a very fast one) the forward voltage drop across it may be at least 0.6V and this lowers the useful voltage that may feed the LED from the total induced AC voltage peak so I wonder if connecting a Germanium or Schottky diode across the Gate Source pins in parallel with the internal diode (anode to anode and cathode to cathode) you may be able to gain some more brightness from the LED. Maybe this extra diode influences oscillation too much and you get just a dimmer LED, well I hope not... and if you agree and feel like testing it, please do. Even another Si diode like 1N914 or 1N4148 might be worth trying if you do not have any Germanium or Schottky diode at hand.

rgds,  Gyula

@Gyula: thank you for the helpful advice.

I connected a 1N5711 diode (forward Voltage 0.38 V)  from Gate to negative rail (in parallel to the internal diode) and it made the LED a little brighter at very low Voltages. I now see the LED glowing at 180 mV (before it was 200 mV). Starting at 250 mV the difference in brightness is clearly visible.

Connecting the IC* pins to negative rail did not change anything. I guess because they are internally connected to the V- pin which I already had connected to negative rail, it might reduce noise.

I use the two transistors in the in ALD110900 in parallel and I will try all four transistors in a ALD110800 in parallel. I agree, the V+ pin will be important in a ALD110800. I think V+ and V- get rid of stray charges in the component.

Just now I am preparing the winding of a 500 turn Slayer Tower. The winding is about 120 mm high, 30 mm diameter, plastic tube, 0.22 mm diameter enamelled wire. The primary will have 12 turns because that worked well with Slayer Towers I tested some years ago.

I am a big fan of the Slayer Exciter because it reminds me of a Tesla Coil. For me the Slayer Exciter is a Tesla Coil built with modern components (transistor instead of a spark gap).

At 1 V supply voltage a LED could be lit from the top wire of the 100 turns coil with an Avramenko plug (without connecting it to negative rail). So, it is a genuine Slayer Exciter.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline magpwr

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Hi Conradelektro,

I just placed order on ALD110800 last night.I could only advise any finding once i received those.

My plan  would be using 3 tap/output from toroid somewhat similar connection to get negative for mosfet  http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/culter.pdf
I would like to imagine that as a unique osillator or s/w radio base on above link using no (antenna or ground or battery).

Honestly 500ohms from single mosfet doesn't sound good even combining 4 mosfet to lower on resistance(RDS) to 125Ohms at around 5v.
The reason being 4 turns or 10 turns on primary winding of toroid would have resistance below "1" Ohms .
This itself create a huge instances of Impedance mismatch  between mosfet and coil which would lower efficiency further.

The only other way i know to increase Joule thief "current output" at around 50mV input is to connect good npn transistor ZTX1048A(22Ohms ... 100Ohms to base from secondary coil) in parallel  with one 2SK170(1.8k to gate from secondary like the original layout in 25mV joule  thief).Hint "The JFET will kick start npn transistor through emitter & collector once input voltage reach around 30mV(lowest possible osc to sustain for npn transistor ZTX1048A)    ...40mV"
This is tested to be working great at higher current draw depending on resistor value on npn transistor base which you need to tally with "source of power/current capability at 50mV".
These circuit is my version 2.0 using 50farad ultra cap quick charged in 1...3sec to get around 50mV which i have not posted yet.The reason why i have not posted ver 2.0 is because peltier measured output using body heat is only 4.2mA.

I will update finding about copper pipes/tubes with torrid once i purchased small copper pipes normally used in Air-con.

info only related to diodes-

1N5817 at 1A is 450mV  (Datasheet)     (Using multimeter to test forward voltage on my available Schottky diode 1N5817 is 0.145v)
1N5711 at 0.6mA is at 0.2volts (Looking at graph in datasheet) .I do not have this diode to test on multimeter  mode-Diode Tester

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Offline conradelektro

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Some more tests with the Slayer Exciter using ALD110900 transistor:

The new coil (see photo) was not better than the toroid from my Reply #63. The Ferrite Core was necessary, without it at least a 1 Volt supply Voltage was needed. I tried many coil ratios from 8:500 to 25:500, 13:500 was best.

The lower limit to make the LED glow was still 180 mV and I have the impression that the LED was a little brighter with the Toroid.

I will change the ratio of windings on the toroid from 4:100 to 4:200 with a few taps to see if that leads further.

So, the 2SK170 is still the best for low Voltages, do not buy the ALDs yet.

I will try the Slayer Exciter type circuit with the 2SK170 and other Joule Thief variants with the ALD110900 and ALD110800.

Greetings, Conrad
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 07:14:30 PM by conradelektro »

Offline conradelektro

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Some more tests with the ALD110900 transistor:

See the attached drawing which shows all the tets I did with the ALD110900 transistor (2 transistors in parallel). Only the "Slayer Exciter" variant comes close to the 2SK170 transistor (180 mV), all other circuits need at least 700 mV. The toroid was better than an air coil.

One can make a JT with the ALD110900, two windings on a toroid and a LED, the electrolytic capacitor and the 1N5711 diode being optional. And it uses very little current, namely about 1.2 mA at 1 Volt or 1.5 Volt, although the LED is fairly bright at this level.

I now leave the ALDs be till I get new ideas and will concentrate on the 2SK170 transistor which could make a LED glow at 50 mV with magpwr's circuit.

What are the essential characteristics of the 2SK170? I want to find replacements, because it seems odd that only the 2SK170 can make a LED glow at 50 mV?

Greetings, Conrad

Offline magpwr

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hi conradelektro,

This is a huge list of N-channel Junction FET which will self osc\start at low voltage.But 2SK170 is the best over all.
I have already taken the trouble find out the best self starting component.Please note those i put those *high current out* are the better ones notably 2SK..series as listed below.Some 2sk jfet don't work so i exclude those and rest of unwantd JFETS already.

Please look no further unless it some JFET which is released recently,unknown at this moment.

N channel JFET which could self start at low voltage <100mV
-----------

2N4861A      *35mv startup
2N4393   *    *60mv startup
2N3972           *33mv startup    ***********Could self start at 22mV (or 1mV lower than 2SK170)but much lower current output capability.
2SK117              *31mv startup -high current output
2SK170      *30mv startup -high current output ******final testing reveal this is the best self starting at 23mV.
2SK364               *31mv startup -high current output
2SK366               *31mv startup -high current output

2N4093       *35mv startup
2N4223               *35mv startup
2N5484               *60mV startup
2N5103               *60mv startup

BF510                 *45mv startup
BF410B               *60mv

BC264C               *60mV
BC264A               *60mV
BC264D               *60mV
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:49:05 PM by magpwr »

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Offline conradelektro

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@magpwr: thank you, great list, that helps a lot.

I guess you wrote "mV" where it should be "V", see this list which I will keep for reference:

N channel JFET which could self start at low voltage <100mV (according to magpwr):

2N4861A   0.35 V     start up
2N4393     0.060 V   start up  with BD329
2N3972     0.033 V   start up    *********** Could self start at 22mV (or 1mV lower than 2SK170)but much lower current output capability
2SK117     0.031 V  start up - high current output

2SK170      0.030 V  start up - high current output  ******final testing reveal this is the best self starting at 23mV

2SK364      0.031 V  start up - high current output
2SK366      0.031 V  start up - high current output

2N4093       0.35 V    start up
2N4223       0.35 V    start up
2N5484       0.060 V  start up
2N5103       0.060 V  start up

BF510          0.045 V  start up
BF410B        0.060 V

BC264C        0.060 V
BC264A        0.060 V
BC264D        0.060 V

Magpwr please verify, this list is very helpful for everybody playing with Joule Thief type circuits. I will put it into a spread sheet once verified by you.

I do not understand "2N4393     0.060 V   start up with BD329" (how is it started with the BD329)?

Mouser sells the 2SK3666-2-TB-E and the STD35N3LH5. Are they replacements for the 2SK364 and 2SK366?
Mouser also sells 512-MMBF5103, a replacement of BF510?
Mouser sells the 771-BF510215 , a replacement of BF510?

The 2SK170 is fairly easy to get, all the other are not widely sold.

Sorry to ask again about the ZTX1048: I understood that one could start the ZTX1048 with a 2SK170, but at what Voltage would the ZTX1048 start alone (just the ZTX1048), at 40 mV ?

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Some results with 4 transistors 2SK170 in parallel in magpwr's circuit: 2.2 K resistor in front of the Gate (magpwr specified 1.8 K), 2N5711 diode in series with a white LED.

The white Led starts to glow at 37 mV and is clearly visible at 50 mV.

Power usage is rather high, that is why the LED glows stronger with 4 transistors in parallel:

2.2 mA at 50 mV
6 mA at 100 mV
14 ma at 200 mV (LED is very bright at 200 mV)
34 mA at 500 mV (this is too high, needs a 10 K resistor at the Gate to reduce current to 20 mA)
(do not try with 1 Volt, could destroy the transistors)

It works fine with a 50 mm x 50 mm Peltier Element: cold side at room temperature (about 22 degrees Celsius) and the hot side touched with the hand. Again I see that the LED starts to glow around 37 mV and is nicely visible at 50 mV which is reached within seconds when touching the Peltier Elemet with the hand.

I could also make a LED shine with 4 transistors 2SK170 in parallel and the Slayer Exciter circuit I showed in this thread. But it needs at least 100 mV to make the LED glow, so magpwr's circuit is better.

In case one wants to use 1.5 Volt batteries (till they are deeply discharged down to 200 mV) one could use the ALD110900 transistor in the Slayer Exciter circuit I showed earlier in this thread because it does not need any additional components (just the toroid with the windings and the white LED) and uses very little power (1 mA at 1 V).

But for a really low Voltage power supply (50 mV to 200 mV) magpwr's circuit with four 2SK170 transistors in parallel is great. It needs a few mA to work, about 100 µW at 50 mV, and it is astonishing  that one can make a LED glow with such little power and such little Voltage. With one 2SK170 transistor the demand is only 500µA in order to see the LED dimly glow at 50 mV.

Greetings, Conrad


Offline magpwr

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hi Conradelektro,


I have admended the voltage in earlier posting(hours ago) eg:0.035mV changed to 35mV.


The one which i combine JFET with BD329 was at early stages of testing.Could ignore those old value which i forgot to remove as ZTX1048A combine with 2SK170 in parallel configuration using 1 resistor 2.2kOhms from secondary coil still produce better result at higher current draw.This could be the version 2.0 circuit maybe not suitable for peltier.I  noticed  peltier raw output is around 10mA for me with 6c temperature difference.


ZTX1048A(4amps direct,20A pulsing for one tiny transistor with no heatsink ,refer to datasheet) could self start at usual around 0.6volts like all silicon transistor.But voltage drop across emitter and collector at below 200mA is around 50mV base on datasheet ,VCE drop across common average transistor is around 0.3...0.5v .
ZTX1047A should be slighter better but i can't find those online.





Offline gyulasun

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Hi Folks,

I have made some comparison on JFETs as per electrical data and I think the BF861B from NXP (earlier Philips type) may be worth a test because most of its features are the same or  a bit better than that of the 2SK170. Here is a data sheet for it:
http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/BF861A_BF861B_BF861C.pdf  and Farnell has it http://uk.farnell.com/nxp/bf861b-215/jet-n-ch-25v-sot-23/dp/1758057 
The highest transconductance of this family is BF861C but it should be looked for where it is avalable  EDIT RS Components seem to have it http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/?searchTerm=bf861&sra=oss&r=t  a package of 10 should be ordered...

I do not know this seller but they seem to sell ZTX1047A: http://elcodis.com/searchparts/ztx1047.html   Farnell and others has the ZTX1048A.

rgds,  Gyula


Offline conradelektro

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@gyulasun: thank you for searching the BF861B, since it is not expensive I might order it.
@magpwr: thank you for updating the transistor list.

I looked for the transistors named by magpwr and found the following sources:


2SK364 (31mv start up -high current output)  511-STD35N3LH5  Mouser (might not be the same, replacement type)
 
2SK366 (31mv start up -high current output)  863-2SK3666-2-TB-E  Mouser

BF510   (45mv start up)  512-MMBF5103  or  771-BF510215  Mouser

2SK170 (30 mV start up - high current output, best so far)  Mouser,  Reichelt (Germany),  eBay seller diy-audio4you (Germany)

ZTX1048A (600 mV startup, combine with 2SK170)  522-ZTX1048A  Mouser,  Farnell

BF861B (not tested, Gyulasun)  Mouser,  Farnell


I attached a photo of my Peltier Element Test (4 transistors 2SK170 in parallel, steel cooking pan at room temperature about 22° Celsius, Peltier Element 50 mm x 50 mm).

Greetings, Conrad
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 01:02:39 PM by conradelektro »

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