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Author Topic: 25mV Joule Thief powered by peltier merely using our body heat -Free energy 24/7  (Read 170582 times)

Offline magpwr

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Hi conradelektro,

Nice work man.This is how 1st started with <100mV Joule Thief using transistor 2SD1450 (0.13v..0.3v VCE(voltage drop between emitter and collector at 400mA.By referring to datasheet and looking at vce
for expected circuit current draw.

If you refer to my youtube channel  "sanjev21" "45mV Joule Thief" was my 1st low power joule thief  using  "2SD1450" Japanese transistor.But it was not self starting and i had to manually short emitter and collector of transistor to kick start oscillation.

My other experiment which i have not posted in youtube using the best NPN transistor i could find in digikey "ZTX1048A" which have the lowest Voltage drop across emitter&collector at mere(27mV...45mV) at 500mA.Little smaller than TO92 and could handle 4Amps or 20Amps pulse no "heat sink".
Using this ultra low drop transistor i could achieve oscillation as low as "30mV" but as usual i have to kickstart oscillation at higher voltage eg:60mV by temporary shorting emitter&collector.

I have also combine ZTX1048A transistor(To boost output current) and (2SK170 or 2SK364 or 3SK366 .But take note 2SK170 do have better lower starting voltage by 1..3mV)  Junction-FET(To self start osc at low voltage).Connecting 22ohms from coil to transistor and 1.8k coil to JFET Gate while connecting (JFET Source to transistor emitter,J-FET Drain to transistor Collector).Design for <100mV.

For this above transistor and JFET combined circuit i was able to charge 1000uf cap in matter of <5sec to reach around 2volts.

But the current drain for above transistor with JFET circuit  is  around 100mA .
I was using 50FARAD 2.5v Ultra capacitor(charged with 1AA battery for few seconds to reach 100mV) as power source.Since it's known ultra cap got very low internal resistance.

The above circuit will work very nice on 1.5V battery but need to tweak 22ohms resistor to higher value to maintain current draw at decent level eg:100mA.
Then again i realised it's pointless using JFET for 1.5v battery since we could use transistor which is more efficient at higher current.

Peltier only produce <5mA if I connected to multimeter if i use my hand as heat source(36.5c) against room temperature in my case(30c for a hot country) 6.5C difference.
The peltier i'm using do have internal resistance of around 3ohms(Out of the box /Not in use).
In theory i'd believe if we use lower internal resistance for peltier <2ohms we may get better current output but then again.I 'm not sure if multi meter could properly detect "current" at such low voltage produce from peltier 70mV..90mV.

Solar cell do work to power my JFET base joule thief in room lighting or led light.I'm not sure if using other power source like from crystal radio could work.

If we match "source and circuit impedance" then we could  further optimize on efficiency.


Lastly the circuit do work on 1 x 2SK170 as well with lower Circuit current draw at 1mA using peltier at around 60mV. I used 4 JFET  since i noticed there is improvement with output voltage especially with Led as load current draw increases to 4.2mA(Mentioned in youtube description).

Lastly if anyone wish to go for extreme low starting voltage at 22mV instead of 25mV got to try 2n3972 JFET (But very low current handling in itself output capacitor cannot be more than 100nf) and combine with 2SK170 x 3 or 4.

If anyone is a expert with SMD base tiny circuits there is UK base company which manufacture 2SK170 as LSK170  (TO92 package and SMD tiny version).
http://www.micross.com/packaged-parts-plastic-discretes.aspx

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline conradelektro

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@magpwr:

I just realised that I can start oscillation of your circuit with a 2N3904 transistor at 0.2 Volt by briefly shorting collector / emitter.

I found a source for the 2SK170 transistor in Germany

http://www.reichelt.de/

and I would be able to get the ZTX1048A transistor from Farnell.

At what Voltage does the ZTX1048A self start? (You mentioned that you could start it at 60 mV by briefly shorting collector / emitter.)

I did not find a source for the 2n3972?

There should be a replacement for the 2SK170, but I did not find any?

Greetings, Conrad


Offline TinselKoala

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http://www.utsource.net/ic-datasheet/2N3972-677148.html
9 dollars US !!

http://www.utsource.net/ic-datasheet/2SK170-1553154.html
2 dollars.

I've made 2 orders with these people, for mosfets and strange transistors for my F43 FG.... the ordering is painless and the shipping for small quantities is only 4 dollars, but it takes 7-10 business days for the parts to arrive. The parts I ordered were cheaper here than anywhere else for small quantities, and they have stuff that nobody else seems to have, like the Motorola transistors I needed.

Offline conradelektro

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I did some power consumption measurements:

Magpwr's circuit as shown in myReply #29 with a 2N3904 transistor uses about 1 mA at 0.2 Volt, which is about 200 µW. The white LED glows dimly.

This is the lowest supply Voltage I personally could ever achieve, but it has to be started by briefly shorting collector / emitter. But I could achieve 50 µW with a 1 Volt power supply with an other circuit, see my Reply #15947 at http://www.overunity.com/6123/jule-thief/15945/#.UOcYyne7kaw (Jule Thief thread page 1064).

I am really looking forward to test the 2SK170 transistor. A self starting Joule Thief type circuit with a power supply of less than 0.1 Volt (even if it needs 1 mA) would be really good for my self made batteries (salt water as electrolyte, silver coated copper wire or graphite chunk versus magnesium chunk or aluminium plate or galvanised steel plate) or for Peltier Elements. Magpwr has shown it and I hardly can wait to see it myself. And I have to try air cores with the 2SK170.

It is of course of little use to dimly light a LED, but it is a nice experiment to make a tiny amount of power visible in the form of a glowing LED.

I never observed OU with a Joule Thief type circuit but one can do amazing stuff like High Voltage at high frequency (Slayer Exciter type circuits, which I like to call modern Tesla Coil Towers), or strong 110V or 220V LED lamps (LaserSabers Joule Ringer) and many other variants all showing some interesting features. Just a few components and so many possibilities.

For me the nice thing about the Joule Thief type circuits is that they work, the LED or the lamp lights up, instant gratification. An other "field" that works for me are the pulse motors (also not OU, but they really spin).

@TinselKoala: thank you for mentioning utsource.net, it is always interesting to know where to get stuff.

Greetings, Conrad


Offline scratchrobot

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Hi Scratchrobot,

I'm sorry you had to find out the hard way.I did mentioned somehwhere in youtube description or comment to another interested person whom wish to construct the ultra low voltage circuit.
Never to try any Jxxx series all those don't work.I have done stimulation testing using trial software to find out the best component(It's on you to find out.I won't reveal it).
Please don't bother trying other Junction FETs you won't get ultra low self startup voltage.I have wasted 3 days to accidently discover a self starting joule thief at below <30mV while trying to optimise joule Thief.

I bought 2SK170 from  http://www.futurlec.com  (After searching in internet high and low) for $0.20ea (Bought 10 pieces for $2 USD) Since i'm living in Asia shipment is only around $5.50USD for me.Got it within  2 weeks.

Recent discovery my circuit could be powered by solar cell in room merely shine a led torchlight to part of the 1.7v solar cell(400mA) to light a led again from my ultra low joule thief(NOT OVERUNITY).

No problem, i'm used to learn the hard way  ;)
I just ordered some 2SK170 from http://www.reichelt.de/ thanks Conradelektro for the link.
So I will try your circuit again when they arrive.

Keep up the good work.


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Offline magpwr

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Hi,

There is a plan which just appeared in my mind.If anyone make it works then it would be the "1st crystal powered fm radio receiver" ever.

I'd believe almost everyone have heard of "crystal detector" use to receive AM and SW broadcast.

Since 25mV joule thief is technically a voltage booster.

I wonder if we combine geranium crystal with the usual antenna and ground or earth then use that to power 25mV joule thief with 1..4 x 2sk170 to power ready made 1.5V fm radio(digital or analog).
The output speaker might need to be change to piezo speaker to lower 1.5v radio current consumption.
In theory may work.Please take note of output voltage from joule thief may need to use zener 2.4v maybe or small red led to prevent voltage from rising beyond  1.8v.

I know the above suggestion sounds like a crazy idea to achieve a "world 1st batteryless  1.5v fm radio which will have clear reception".





Offline scratchrobot

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Hi,

There is a plan which just appeared in my mind.If anyone make it works then it would be the "1st crystal powered fm radio receiver" ever.

I'd believe almost everyone have heard of "crystal detector" use to receive AM and SW broadcast.

Since 25mV joule thief is technically a voltage booster.

I wonder if we combine geranium crystal with the usual antenna and ground or earth then use that to power 25mV joule thief with 1..4 x 2sk170 to power ready made 1.5V fm radio(digital or analog).
The output speaker might need to be change to piezo speaker to lower 1.5v radio current consumption.
In theory may work.Please take note of output voltage from joule thief may need to use zener 2.4v maybe or small red led to prevent voltage from rising beyond  1.8v.

I know the above suggestion sounds like a crazy idea to achieve a "world 1st batteryless  1.5v fm radio which will have clear reception".

Nice idea and maybe it is possible with an antenna and a ground conection?
Would also be nice to just charge a cap with the output of a cristal radio with your circuit and blink a led now and then.

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Offline conradelektro

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Hi,

There is a plan which just appeared in my mind. If anyone make it works then it would be the "1st crystal powered fm radio receiver" ever.

I'd believe almost everyone have heard of "crystal detector" use to receive AM and SW broadcast.

Since 25mV joule thief is technically a voltage booster.

I wonder if we combine geranium crystal with the usual antenna and ground or earth then use that to power 25mV joule thief with 1..4 x 2sk170 to power ready made 1.5V fm radio(digital or analog).
The output speaker might need to be change to piezo speaker to lower 1.5v radio current consumption.
In theory may work.Please take note of output voltage from joule thief may need to use zener 2.4v maybe or small red led to prevent voltage from rising beyond  1.8v.

I know the above suggestion sounds like a crazy idea to achieve a "world 1st batteryless  1.5v fm radio which will have clear reception".

@magpwr:   At what Voltage does the ZTX1048A transistor self start in your circuit? (You mentioned that you could start it at 60 mV by briefly shorting collector / emitter.)

@crystal power idea:   I did extensive tests and found that the "field strength" of radio, TV, cell phone and WLAN transmissions is way too low to receive any meaningful power. People who lived only a few kilometres away from big AM radio transmitters could receive some power, but most AM stations have shut down in Europe. Also very long antennas and a good earth ground are needed (which is not practical). But I might have done everything wrong and more clever people can find a way.

One can get some power in the µA from the 50 Hz 220 V AC net if one places the "antenna" (just a long cable) very close to appliances which consume power (lamps, refrigerator, washing machines, etc.).

Some people draw mA from the neutral of the 50Hz 220V AC net. But this is cheating. If the 50Hz 220V AC net is not balanced (unequal load on the three phases which are usually distributed) the neutral wanders away from earth ground, and one can draw power from this (between neutral and earth ground).

I see the application of your circuit with Peltier Elements, self made low power batteries and may be even Piezo Crystals.

What I like to dream about is a "neutrino receiver" because the earth is constantly bombarded with neutrinos from the sun. The problem is, neutrinos do not like to interact with any material. But may be some strange material or "field" can be found, that catches neutrinos. But this is just a wild speculation.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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http://solomonsmusic.net/FM_CrystalRadio.html
http://www.somerset.net/arm/fm_only_lowtech.html
http://www.vacuumtubesinc.com/TubeTidbits/AnFMCrystalSet.aspx
http://electronbunker.ca/FMCrystalSet.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUaZlCeEMpY


Not FM.... but no external antenna or ground needed:
http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/culter.pdf

@TinselKoala: very nice circuits. What I always wanted to do is getting away from tuning into a single transmitter or radio station. I want a "broad band receiver" which catches all transmissions from 60 MHz to 10 GHz and then just rectifies all these waves into DC with a full bridge rectifier using HF diodes.

This needs a special "broadband antenna" which catches all electromagnetic waves in a wide spectrum. The problem is the "geometry" of this antenna because different wave lengths need different antenna lengths (for a dipole antenna it is lambda/4).

Greetings, Conrad

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Offline magpwr

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Hi Conradelektro and TinselKoala,

To conradelektro,
 You asked At what Voltage does the ZTX1048A transistor self start in your circuit?
The answer i only get oscillation to start(temp shorting emitter & collector) 60mV which i was comparing against the old Japanese transistor 2SD1450.I could manually get oscillation to start at 50mV.
But my objective was to see how low voltage a good transistor could continue to oscillate base on low vce(found in datasheet for lower current draw <200mA)
The improvement i noted is oscillation lasted as low as 30mV for ZTX1048A compared to Japanese transistor 2SD1450(Oscillation stop around 43mV) which had slightly higher VCE drop.
If you checked out my youtube channel search "Sanjev21" title would be "Ultra Low voltage 45mV Joule Thief -Potential to be powered by peltier using body heat only" .This was 1st original non self starting version joule thief using the Japanese transistor.I have not posted ZTX version video since by then i had received the 2SK170 to work with.

Please try not to think about "neutrino detector" just typing this word in google yield huge collection of image all of which are built deep underground.I mean to say it's huge.
Seen a documentary about capturing 1 or 2 neutrinos which orignates from the sun years ago just to study it.Can't recall fully.

To TinselKoala,

Thanks  for providing interesting links which makes our eyes open even wider.
But i'm more interested in this particular link you sent.
http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/culter.pdf

The author mentioned-
It only takes 5 to 10 mV peak-to-peak on the
source of the MOSFET to provide an adequate
volume level.

There is a another line in pdf where he mentioned combining 4 mosfet to improve performance-
The detector consists of four MOSFETs
in parallel using the quad version of the
detector IC in order to better match the lower
resonator impedance

AL D110800A  (Dual Mosfet version) 
ALD110800APCL(Quad mosfet version)

I will reading up the datasheet to check to current draw capability.Who knows it might be even better than 2SK170 ultra low 25mV.

Lastly,

There is another plan that popped in my mind.How about we use "motor as micro power generator through vibration" as we walk.This idea would be better than peltier since
 voltage output could be around 500mV to 1v around 10x times better in terms of voltage output for joule thief.

This is sketchy plan in words as from my mind.Use a small palm size rectangular plastic box as the housing unit for "motor used as micro power generator".
The motor will be the weight on the center and motor is connected to 2 springs(One on the upper portion of the box) and another spring from motor to lower half of box.
The "motor needs to be dual long shaft type" with gears on both end of motor shaft.In the box a line of teeth(From top to bottom) to be lined both side of box(Have not figured out how to balance motor parallely).

If we place the rectangular box vertically in our bag then as we walk the motor would vibrate up and down therefore generating good amount of electricity "on the move".
In theory the power output would be at least 10x time better than peltier design.To power joule thief.

Just a concept.

Offline conradelektro

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There is a another line in pdf where he mentioned combining4 mosfetto improve performance-
The detector consists of four MOSFETs
in parallel using the quad version of the
detector IC in order to better match the lower
resonator impedance

AL D110800A (Dual Mosfet version) 
ALD110800APCL (Quad mosfet version)


@magpwr:  I ordered some Quad ALD110800 and Dual ALD110900 transistors. Mouser rips me off for them (about EUR 3.-- a piece and specially the delivery costs are remarkable), but these transistors just sound right for extreme low power applications. This fascinates me at the moment. Thank you magpwr for sharing your findings.

Interesting is also the use of more than one transistor in parallel. That seems to be less exotic than I thought.

Once I have a very low power Joule Thief working I also have to carefully select the LED. Some LEDs are brighter at low power. Conventional wisdom suggests red LEDs, but the white LEDs have become rather bright at low power. And at the specified power (e.g. 20 mA) they almost hurt the eye.

There is also much work to do with the coils. I guess one wants high grade Ferrite toroids (high induction) and that the oscillation frequency will be low with low power sources. But the 4 : 100 ration suggested by magpwr is a very good starting point.  I tried to measure frequency at my test circuit (2N3904 transistor) at 0.15 Volt, but the DMM influenced the circuit and I did not get a meaningful result. One has to do it "indirectly", but at low power everything one does will influence the circuit (e.g. a measurement winding over the toroid).

I also saw that one can put away the resistor at the base at very low Voltages (e.g. less than 0.2 Volt). That makes the LED brighter. Specially with very low power sources that becomes an option. The transistor will be completely unprotected, therefore one has to be careful that the power source does not increase over a certain threshold (as could happen with a Peltier Element) or it will burn the transistor.

Greetings, Conrad

P-S.: I never thought about a conventional Neutrino tank in my basement, I am looking for a strange field or material that interacts better with neutrinos than the liquid in the big conventional tanks. But it is only a wild thought experiment and not a serious project.


Offline magpwr

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To conradelektro,

It is a good idea to start working on toroid while waiting for parts to be delivered.

Smaller toroid will work just as efficient as well base on my findings.But it's bit more challenging on the mind to wind the toroid.I used a small hard plastic which could pass through the small toroid.
A deep V is cut on plastic on top and bottom to hold the copper wires.The length of plastic is around 1/2 index finger to hold copper wire.Someone in youtube even used ice-cream stick with V cutting to wind toroid.

Another findings related to toroid big or small if your secondary winding exceed the 1/2 way mark\circle\toroid i noticed the efficiency drops.Keep it within the 1/2 as shown in my 25mV Joule Thief video.

Offline TinselKoala

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The "someone" may have been me, as I posted such a video. I was surprised to learn that people were not already using this method. The length of the spindle or bobbin (i'm not sure what to call it) should be slightly more than one full wrap of the wire around the toroid. Then you can estimate the amount of wire to wrap onto the spindle by the desired turn count on the toroid very easily. Use a material that won't scratch off the enamel insulation; I have used wood and scraps of circuit board material. I've also used aluminum but this can scratch the insulation, if the spindle is wide enough to contact the already-wrapped wire as you push it thru the hole in the toroid.
Another way to do it is to make a splittable circular form that you can assemble onto the toroid through the hole in the toroid. Then you wind your wire from the supply spool onto the circular form,  and then off the circular form onto the toroid.



Offline conradelektro

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Update:

I got some 2SK170 transistors and my replication of magpwr's circuit works down to 50 mV. It seems to draw about 0.5 mA at 50 mV.

And it is self starting all the way down to 50 mV. The white LED glows dimmly at 50 mV.

At 100 mV the LED is fairly bright and the current draw seems to be near 1 mA.

The resistor at the Gate is 2.2 KOhm, just one transistor and my coils on a toroid are 10 : 100 at the moment (just to try out some ratios).

I have to take of a few turns to get to 4:100 and will report more tests soon. With four transistors and a ration of 4:100 it should go down to the 25 mV reported by magpwr.

The 50 mV are the lowest supply Voltage I have ever seen for a Joule Thief on my workbench. Thank you magpwr for finding and disclosing the 2SK170.

Greetings, Conrad

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