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Discussion board help and admin topics => Half Baked Ideas => Topic started by: powercat on October 15, 2012, 02:44:53 PM

Title: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 15, 2012, 02:44:53 PM
Has there ever been a magnet ball in a tube motor ?
I could only find one video that was similar to my idea,
but instead of a tube he used copper rails and a only one toroid coil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTp6IN4jy64
Any thoughts on this idea
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 18, 2012, 08:02:32 PM

A magnet going through a copper tube,
but I can't find anyone that has made a tube motor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E97CYWlALEs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E97CYWlALEs)
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: twinbeard on October 18, 2012, 08:28:51 PM
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGaYH9bKczk

Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 18, 2012, 08:48:02 PM
Hi twinbeard
sorry that's not what I was meaning.
picture a circular piece of tube with a ball magnet inside,
and the tube has a number of toroid  coils attached to the outside.

Then control the speed of the ball using something like the circuit
Shown in the first video.
or something like that,........... it's all ideas......... and I have never seen one before.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 18, 2012, 09:11:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQzpdcQf-Wk
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 18, 2012, 09:26:17 PM
Wilby
Thanks but  its not in a continuous circle.

I keep finding lots of videos where people spin the magnet ball in one place,
rather than the ball spinning round and round in a circle tube,

Rather like a gun barrel that is looped and the ball magnet is the bullet,
If that helps anyone.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 18, 2012, 10:11:36 PM
Sorry for the poor sketch but I hope it helps understand the idea
The black is the tube.
The green is the toroid coils
The red is the magnet ball

I have never seen a motor/generator like this ever before.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: twinbeard on October 18, 2012, 10:22:26 PM
Thats like an EPG with a magnet inside instead of ionized plasma.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: gyulasun on October 18, 2012, 11:34:06 PM
Sorry for the poor sketch but I hope it helps understand the idea
The black is the tube.
The green is the toroid coils
The red is the magnet ball

I have never seen a motor/generator like this ever before.

Hi powercat,

I think your setup is a good idea, worth building a testbed for it.  If you do not mind I would suggest an addition which may help the moving ball accelerating, besides the coils.
You surely heard of the magnetic trigate setup from Graham, see a video collection on it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=pnMSSz7W8YU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=pnMSSz7W8YU) 

See this test here why I think your setup could benefit from the trigate magnets addition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCW6T7oKq2c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCW6T7oKq2c)

If there is any small sticky point at the entrance or near to the entrance of a trigate setup in itself (though I have not noticed such in the videos) then it would surely be defeated by the momentum of the moving ball and I guess any DRAG by the induction of the moving ball in the generator coils around the tube to generate output should be much higher than the trigate any sticky spot.

Hopefully you can build this, looks promising!

rgds, Gyula

PS  EDIT  I am not sure if the trigate setups placed around your tube would be able to accelerate the ball without the electromagnet coils...  because bending the trigate may distort the fields in an unfavorable direction,  so just use one or two trigates first for a bigger diameter tube like at least with 40-50 centimeter.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 19, 2012, 12:03:58 AM
Hi Powercat,

There are two patent applications by the same inventor based somewhat on the idea. He is using rounded cylinders though.

Application number: 12/778,500 CIRCULAR SELF-POWERED MAGNETIC GENERATOR
http://www.google.com/patents/US20100219709

Application number: 12/910,912 GRAVITY-ASSISTED GEOMAGNETIC GENERATOR
http://www.google.com/patents/US20120098272

The cone shaped coil construction is pretty interesting. I haven't seen a generator use that coil geometry before.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 19, 2012, 10:40:09 AM
Hi Gyula,
thank you for those videos, yes I have seen some of them before, interesting as a possible way of assisting
the magnet ball, I also had some more thoughts.......making a vacuum in the tube for more efficiency
or possibly a double layered tube, with one layer filled with liquid nitrogen.

Before attempting a build I would like to understand more about how efficient this could be.
I prefer to build with off the shelf parts if possible as my skills and knowledge are limited,
it is good to share ideas and information with other members before taking a leap into the dark.

What I'm still finding strange is that I cannot find any motor/generator that has been made this way,
Is this a unique idea ?  Time will tell.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 19, 2012, 10:54:26 AM
Hi DreamThinkBuild
Thanks for that information very close to what I'm thinking, though he was not using a magnet ball,
the train carriage like system is interesting, would love to see a video of it in action.

The other problem is this is a very custom built device looking at the drawings nearly everything is handmade.
I know there are some good coil builders out there that might be capable of some sort of replication.

I feel the search continues to see if this (magnet ball in a continuous tube) has ever been built before.

Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: gyulasun on October 19, 2012, 11:23:24 AM
Hi powercat,

I have not seen your setup yet either anywhere else but this is no problem, rigth?

In fact there is a "twisted-out" version of your setup and I mean:

1) the tube does not exist but substituted by stationary coils arranged in a full circle with gaps between them    (you could easily   embed them into a ring-shaped tube or you could use a non-magnetic ring to hold the coils  mechanically as bobbins as you yourself show)
2) the ball magnet does not exist but there are magnets arranged in a toroidal shape and each of these circular magnet sets  rotate outside of and around the stationary circular row of the coils

The inventor (from Germany) shows his setup as a low Lenz generator (not motor) and for the tests he rotates his setup by hand as the "prime mover" and shows loaded run down tests. Here is his youtube videos as he uploaded them in time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TEemaW9_CE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfgzfl69Q20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__B9obbzreQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX5ukoC-WXU

and here in his latest video he shows magnetic induction with "three fields":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmr5AlwH1GM 

I do not understand German and I am puzzled by his statement that he has a low Lenz generator setup,  of course I know he comes to this conclusion because of his comparative run down tests with load versus the no load rotational time.  BUT what I conventionally tend to think is that his magnets are far away from the coils so action-reaction is limited and if he connected all the output coils in series, so his generator inner resistance is relatively high (Lenz reacts in a lessen degree when current is smaller).
Of course I do not wish to discourage you or anyone else with this "rambling", just my own observations.

rgds, Gyula
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 19, 2012, 02:46:44 PM
Hi
the German videos were very interesting but what a build way beyond my capabilities,
if I do built this motor/generator I will try and buy everything off the shelf.

Another idea today is to fix the whole device on a bicycle wheel and then spin the wheel
using another motor, so the magnet ball in tube will only be a generator.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: Cherryman on October 19, 2012, 03:32:17 PM
Sorry for the poor sketch but I hope it helps understand the idea
The black is the tube.
The green is the toroid coils
The red is the magnet ball

I have never seen a motor/generator like this ever before.


Hi Powercat, I played with the idear a few years back:


http://www.overunity.com/9048/one-ring-to-control-them-all/ (http://www.overunity.com/9048/one-ring-to-control-them-all/)



Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 19, 2012, 04:54:38 PM
Hi Cherryman
That's it........OK you are using hydrogen to make your ball rotate, but basically the same idea,
so the question is has anyone actually ever built one of these and generated power from it ?

That was a great thread......you and IST doing lots of testing videos and your diagrams are fantastic.
I'm not feeling that confident yet to order any parts but who knows where this research will lead.

Thanks for sharing

Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: evolvingape on October 19, 2012, 10:56:39 PM
Hi Powercat, Cherryman.
 
I came across Cherryman's HHO system a while back and have been integrating the principles for some time:
 
http://www.overunity.com/10451/rotomax-rotary-engine-tesla-wankel-mason-hho-hybrid/msg277108/#msg277108 (http://www.overunity.com/10451/rotomax-rotary-engine-tesla-wankel-mason-hho-hybrid/msg277108/#msg277108)
 
I have also been working on variations of the system principles your describing Powercat, however, I do not feel the current magnet motor / generator designs can be improved upon. I am using the principles differently as it is hard to beat 96% efficiency and counting. Law of diminishing returns:
 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Diminishing+returns%2c+law+of (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Diminishing+returns%2c+law+of)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor)
 
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrical-motor-efficiency-d_655.html (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrical-motor-efficiency-d_655.html)
 
http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2009/04/06/japanese-researchers-breakthrough-96-electric-motor-efficiency/ (http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2009/04/06/japanese-researchers-breakthrough-96-electric-motor-efficiency/)
 
A Ground Effect Vehicle (GEV) is an extremely desirable toy...
 
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2781-wood-gasification-4.html#post208266 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2781-wood-gasification-4.html#post208266)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovercraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovercraft)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_in_aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_in_aircraft)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea-skimmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea-skimmer)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_train (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_train)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_ring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_ring)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Schauberger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Schauberger)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR_lCObJVJk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR_lCObJVJk)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dcqnEFIw3A&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dcqnEFIw3A&feature=related)
 
http://www.jetlev-flyer.com/ (http://www.jetlev-flyer.com/)
 
The graphic design I have put up is actually a combination of many technologies, and should be fun for you to explore what each aspect does and what it can do for you...
 
Rob  ;D
 
 

 
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 20, 2012, 03:22:57 PM
Hi Rob,
wow that's a lot of links, having looked at most of them the Japanese 96% efficiency motor
Was very interesting and highlights how important a good controller is,
I think given my skill levels it is better for me to think about building a generator only,
Which could be connected to one of these Japanese motors later.

@All
Been thinking about my bicycle wheel idea and would like to share some thoughts.

If I now mount the magnet ball tube on the back wheel of a conventional bicycle,
a bit like an exercise bike with the back wheel off the ground.
When I start peddling will the magnet ball stay at the bottom of the wheel ?
I am thinking that as the toroid coils passed the ball they will produce drag but surely
the ball will more or less stay at the bottom half of the wheel ?

What is not clear is if I feel any effect of drag while I am paddling,
since there is no shaft connected from the motor to transmit drag through.

Possibly I would feel some sort of gyroscope force as speed builds up ?
...
The black is the tube.
The green is the toroid coils
The red is the magnet ball
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 20, 2012, 04:10:29 PM
Hi Powercat,

Quote
When I start peddling will the magnet ball stay at the bottom of the wheel ?

Yes, up to a certain speed. Depends on friction of surface.

Quote
I am thinking that as the toroid coils passed the ball they will produce drag but surely
the ball will more or less stay at the bottom half of the wheel ?

This is where it gets interesting you can partially decouple the magnet from the prime mover. I've been working on something similar but using diametric magnets. You don't need to make so many coils only one coil under the bottom of the wheel. As the magnet spins in the wheel gravity will keep it at the bottom with a load it will start to oscillate back and forth in the curve of the wheel. The magnet will still experiences Lenz but the prime mover will just experience the weight and friction of moving magnet and other normal friction(bearings,etc). I've had a tiny motor being able to drive a diametric magnet that when normally coupled directly to the shaft would stall out running a load. Using this approach the motor doesn't stall out but the magnet just slows it's rotation, lowering the power output.

It's quick to build if you have the parts, all you need is a small motor, connect to hollow wheel/plastic food container, a sphere magnet or diametric magnet and a coil underneath the wheel to your output. The lower the friction surface the better.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 20, 2012, 05:10:00 PM
Hi
I think I understand what you're saying, a video would help,
yes I could use only one coil, but if it's mounted underneath the wheel
I think there will be some drag

If I connect the coil to the wheel the Lenz affect is only on the ball,
so would I feel any Lenz affect while paddling......  If I wouldn't feel any effect
Why not have more coils for more power.

I'm not ready to do any tests yet and I would have to order parts before starting,
so it is important to know what is likely to be the best set up before ordering.

Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: evolvingape on October 20, 2012, 06:17:01 PM
Powercat,

What are the aims of your build ? A magnet ball loose in a circular toroidal close tolerance tube, with phase angle coil pickups or injectors, has no means to extract torque from the system. Both balls and coils are rotors. A rotor / stator arrangement is mandatory for interaction with all fields, especially the torque field around a spinning axis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto_%28generator%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor-stator_interaction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor

The HRT was designed to harness the torque moment from the force acting on the mass of the sphere (magnet ball) / (LFV housing). This means that C'man's HHO version has been modified to move the combustion chamber into the ball itself, fed with fuel via a centrifugal force pump already paid for as a byproduct of rotation about an axis. The HHO supply located sleeved around centre bore shaft is fluid pumped as a venturi flow. As a result a temperature differential is created and a sleeved thermoelectric generator (TEG) converts that into DC, which will access the atomic phase dimension (HHO), run as AC it will access the molecular phase change dimension (steam).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_generator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_generator)

If your aiming your project at a purely information gathering excercise from personal experience then you should enjoy it. Any thoughts of an efficiency competition with the known laws of existing magnet generators and motors is almost pointless, scrapping over the last few %. Any benefit must come from an alternate property of a spinning, low friction floating magnet ball, in a driven toroid guide, that is not currently known. How will you measure for that ? How will you measure for torque generated without the drive connection to rotary moment ?

The principles discussed here and elsewhere are the seeds to a breathing 3 dimensional engine that runs on water, electricity, phase change and thermal potential difference flowing through a fluid.

Rob  :)
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 20, 2012, 08:10:13 PM
Hi Powercat,

I just got a video uploaded to show the effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBSwhL8s1zc
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 20, 2012, 08:14:49 PM
Powercat,
What are the aims of your build ? A magnet ball loose in a circular toroidal close tolerance tube, with phase angle coil pickups or injectors, has no means to extract torque from the system. Both balls and coils are rotors. A rotor / stator arrangement is mandatory for interaction with all fields, especially the torque field around a spinning axis.

Hi
the toroid coils are fixed to the outside of the tube and the magnet ball is loose inside the tube,
Then it is fixed to the bicycle and you paddle.  Nothing is connected to the shaft
apart from the normal bicycle wheel, so the question still is where you feel the load ?

I notice you put links to some basic information which can be useful as a reference,
but we all know if you pass a magnet over or through a copper coil you will generate power.
The type of Coil I would use depends on what's available....The right size that fits the tube nicely.
@All
What I haven't seen yet is a generator or even a motor built like this that can be shown running,
yes I have seen similar ideas that have been posted in this thread, but so far no working device,
until I see that or make it myself it is hard to know how well it would perform.

For the moment it is interesting that no one has fully developed this type of generator,
Maybe it's a complete waste of time, which is the main reason I posted this subject in half baked ideas

It is great to get feedback so keep it coming guys.

All the best
PC
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 20, 2012, 08:30:57 PM
Hi Powercat,

I just got a video uploaded to show the effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBSwhL8s1zc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBSwhL8s1zc)

Great video, that was what I was thinking your description was about, really good to see it in action.
I see there is an effect of drag slowing down the motor.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 20, 2012, 09:06:28 PM
Hi Powercat,

Yes, there is still drag on the motor you can see in the video when it's right on the coil. When the magnet rotation starts to slow down so does the motor but it doesn't completely stall the motor. There is another effect which the magnet is acting as a free floating gear so we have 3.5" gear to 1". The magnet is actually rotating faster than the outer cylinder, it's hard to hear on the video but as the magnet speeds up it creates a high pitched whine.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: evolvingape on October 20, 2012, 09:21:22 PM
Powercat,

The basics are not optional if efficiency is desired:

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/u2l4a.cfm (http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/u2l4a.cfm)

Newton's 3rd Law - For every action there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force.

"Consider the motion of a car on the way to school. A car is equipped with wheels that spin. As the wheels spin, they grip the road and push the road backwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the road must also be pushing the wheels forward. The size of the force on the road equals the size of the force on the wheels (or car); the direction of the force on the road (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the wheels (forwards).

For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction.

Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for cars to move along a roadway surface."

Your ball has a solid surface that will react to the drag forces acting on it, and spin about it's own axis. Your coils are rotating under variable drive and are efficient at 90 degrees orientation to your N / S magnetic axis. Your ball will either ping about, float, or drag with vector phase change. Alloy wheels do this on cars, when you accelerate but to an observer the wheels apear to stop and reverse direction.

If you pulse an electrical voltage through a coil the kick will drive the ball, a mechanical output. If you drive the ball with a working fluid, you generate a magnetic field when it passes through the coil, an electrical conversion output.

Without a mechanical method for relating the driven mass to the axis of rotation you cannot stabilise the phase angle or transmit torque. Your only option then is to go centrifugal magnetic gearbox, but that's complicated.

Interesting discussion anyway,

Rob  :)



Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: gyulasun on October 20, 2012, 11:57:07 PM
....
@All
Been thinking about my bicycle wheel idea and would like to share some thoughts.

If I now mount the magnet ball tube on the back wheel of a conventional bicycle,
a bit like an exercise bike with the back wheel off the ground.
When I start peddling will the magnet ball stay at the bottom of the wheel ?
I am thinking that as the toroid coils passed the ball they will produce drag but surely
the ball will more or less stay at the bottom half of the wheel ?

What is not clear is if I feel any effect of drag while I am paddling,
since there is no shaft connected from the motor to transmit drag through.

Possibly I would feel some sort of gyroscope force as speed builds up ?
...
The black is the tube.
The green is the toroid coils
The red is the magnet ball

Hi Powercat,

Your bicycle wheel setup reminded me to a Polish inventor, Mr Filipiak's setup, though your setup is simpler than his,  the principle is almost similar.  DreamThinkBuild's quick test is an excellent demo on your setup.  Filipiak's setup includes permanent magnets in the 'big' wheel (which is your bicycle wheel),  in fact he used two big wheels in parallel planes.  FIRST see an animation on his setup here:   www.overunity.com/filipiak (http://www.overunity.com/filipiak)   (it is an exe file, just run it after downloading)

Then read through this old thread here (not long) and most of the links there work, except the one in member "dani" posts but most info in those nonworking links was copied and included in Stefan Hartmann's posts in that thread.
www.overunity.com/940/filipiak-motor-replication/ (http://www.overunity.com/940/filipiak-motor-replication/)   

Mr Filipiak filed two patent application for his setup in 1997 and in 2006, see here the first:
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=worldwide.espacenet.com&II=8&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19990118&CC=PL&NR=320975A1&KC=A1 (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=worldwide.espacenet.com&II=8&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19990118&CC=PL&NR=320975A1&KC=A1)

and here the second:
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Synchronous-magneto-electric-motor/WO2007081229.html (http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Synchronous-magneto-electric-motor/WO2007081229.html)   

and further collection of videos here:  http://freenrg.info/Filipiak/ (http://freenrg.info/Filipiak/)

Now you can surely answer your first question yourself because your magnet ball will behave just like the cylindrical body (that includes the magnets) rolling on its shafts on the inner rims of the two big wheels,  gravity and inertia will keep it in movement, of course together with some input energy by your paddling or by a small electric motor. 
Your second question is also answered by the videos: yes your ball will stay in the bottom area of the bicycle wheel, it will swing a little bit back and forth (depending on its mass and the rpm of the wheel) and yes there will be Lenz drag when you paddling BUT it is not sure you would notice it...  I mean the gearing on the bike and ratio between the ball diameter and the bicycle diameter may shadow it,  a much better indication for this would be to monitor the small motor current draw during the operation when you load your output coils.  (DreamThinkBuild nicely explained it above.)
According to the descriptin in the thread (Reply #1), Filipiak claimed more output than input...  output was measured on the big wheel's shaft and it was max 10W equivalent mechanical power versus the input 2-3W (small motor and the syncronizer circuit)

(Unfortunately, there is no sound in the videos.)

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: evolvingape on October 21, 2012, 02:17:38 PM
Powercat,

The principles you are exploring here are well understood and almost perfected, 4% to go in some areas. What are you trying to achieve with your setup ?

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/how-does-a-generator-work.html

"Every machine like a generator is an extension of an idea or principle. Once you understand the idea or principle, understanding the working based on it is a simple job."

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/brushless-motor.htm

"In a typical DC motor, there are permanent magnets on the outside and a spinning armature on the inside. The permanent magnets are stationary, so they are called the stator. The armature rotates, so it is called the rotor."

http://alternatorparts.com/understanding_alternators.htm

ALTERNATOR ROTOR

"We'll start our tour of the alternator where it all starts in the alternator itself - at the alternator rotor. The rotor consists of a coil of wire wrapped around an iron core. Current through the wire coil - called "field" current - produces a magnetic field around the core. The strength of the field current determines the strength of the magnetic field. The field current is D/C, or direct current. In other words, the current flows in one direction only, and is supplied to the wire coil by a set of brushes and slip rings. The magnetic field produced has, as any magnet, a north and a south pole. The rotor is driven by the alternator pulley, rotating as the engine runs, hence the name "rotor.""

STATOR

"Surrounding the rotor is another set of coils, three in number, called the stator. The stator is fixed to the shell of the alternator, and does not turn. As the rotor turns within the stator windings, the magnetic field of the rotor sweeps through the stator windings, producing an electrical current in the windings. Because of the rotation of the rotor, an alternating current is produced. As, for example, the north pole of the magnetic field approaches one of the stator windings, there is little coupling taking place, and a weak current is produced, As the rotation continues, the magnetic field moves to the center of the winding, where maximum coupling takes place, and the induced current is at its peak. As the rotation continues to the point that the magnetic field is leaving the stator winding, the induced current is small. By this time, the south pole is approaching the winding, producing a weak current in the opposite direction. As this continues, the current produced in each winding plotted against the angle of rotation of the rotor has the form shown in figure 2. The three stator windings are spaced inside the alternator 120 degrees apart, producing three separate sets, or "phases," of output voltages, spaced 120 degrees apart, as shown in figure 3."

http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/technical-articles/motorcycle-stators

Some useful info on CDI systems, another aspect of the basic principles giving you electricity to HV spark conversion capability, and access to another prime mover source field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbine

"A turbine is a rotary mechanical device that extracts energy from a fluid flow and converts it into useful work. A turbine is a turbomachine with at least one moving part called a rotor assembly, which is a shaft or drum with blades attached. Moving fluid acts on the blades so that they move and impart rotational energy to the rotor. Early turbine examples are windmills and water wheels."

Rob  :)

Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 21, 2012, 06:09:39 PM
Hi Gyula,
many thanks for providing this information to the double rotor device it is a fantastic quality build,
and really good to see it in action, and yes there is no real difference in the basic idea,
so the search goes on to try and find a way of producing free energy.

Hi Rob,
thank you for all the links I know it takes time to put it all together, it's been hard for me
to look at them and to post today with all the issues with the site crashing often,
hopefully Stefan will resolve these issues soon.

@All
It is good to know how quickly an idea can be investigated and researcht on this forum,
there are so many good members with knowledge and experience who are willing to share with all,
We can only hope one day we will all get their.

Never say never
PC
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 22, 2012, 01:27:15 AM
Hi Gyula,

Thanks for the link to Mr. Filiak's setup. I like what he did with his design. I'm wondering if you could replace the spinning magnets with a alternator or generator head. Have it suspended on a shaft rolling on the larger wheel using the weight of itself. Using bearings and framework it can be held so the axis of the generator doesn't rotate, like a seat on a Ferris wheel.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: evolvingape on October 22, 2012, 07:20:05 PM
Hi Powercat,

We can build a generator on your system principles.

How about a push bike with it's great gearing system and built in freewheel assembly. Magnetically couple that to an impeller in a linear shaft and pump water around a closed system.

Now put magnets on the impeller and coils at 90 degrees and you have your generator(s).

Wire an AC electrode boiler into your coil circuit and you can heat the water and pump it at the same time.

A bicycle water heating system that can be alternatively powered by anything you want, even a 96%er.

Rob  ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/2.html
 
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: powercat on October 22, 2012, 07:53:21 PM
Hi Rob,
having investigated the idea, mainly as I have never seen this type of motor before now,
It is clear to me that it will not eliminate drag and produce free energy,
Which is my main reason for being on this forum all these years, as for my own energy needs
I use over a kilowatt of solar panels to running my laptop TV and occasional other appliances.

Solar panels so far are the only device I have ever found that produces free power,once paid for of course.
BTW there are some amazing deals on the ebay if you are buying very big panels.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 22, 2012, 09:08:44 PM
Hi All,

Here is another mechanical method of accelerating a mass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X1dFuxUQ0I

Hi Powercat,

I'm in the same boat. Even though I use solar for light duty stuff, I'm still looking for something to get rid of the batteries and the down time at night. Always searching and testing crazy stuff.

Hi Rob,

You gave me an idea, if you replace the plastic cylinder with a copper cylinder I wonder if the motor will squeal and get hot if you try to use it as a eddy heater. The magnet would roll inside the copper cylinder, the motor will be partially decoupled. The magnet would get hot probably and demagnetize unless there is separating layer, a plastic layer then a copper outer layer. hmmm... :)
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: gyulasun on October 22, 2012, 11:13:05 PM
Hi DreamThinkBuild,

I do not fully understand your question.  You say you replace the spinning magnets  with a generator or alternator head, my question is you meant the spinning magnets which are rolling between the two parallel wheels on the rims, right?
And you use bearings at the two ends of the gen head's shaft and in fact the bearings would roll on the rims, the shaft of the generator  would not rotate,  i.e. the outside body of the generator would turn?  If yes then what would turn the outside body?
Sorry for my hardheadedness...   
I show you a picture from Filipiak video, I indicated the bearing on the right hand side rolling on the rim and you replace the cylindrical magnet body in the middle (which is just pointed at) with the gen head?

Thanks,  Gyula


Hi Gyula,

Thanks for the link to Mr. Filiak's setup. I like what he did with his design. I'm wondering if you could replace the spinning magnets with a alternator or generator head. Have it suspended on a shaft rolling on the larger wheel using the weight of itself. Using bearings and framework it can be held so the axis of the generator doesn't rotate, like a seat on a Ferris wheel.
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 23, 2012, 03:45:27 PM
Hi Gyula,

The idea is like a Ferris wheel where the seat always remains on a fixed axis. I attached a simple mockup. The generator becomes the seat. The weight of the generator would have to be greater than the load or it will flip. When the large outer wheel is turning the small shafts will want to ride up one side of the cylinder but the heavy generator will always be trying to pull down forcing the generator head to turn. So we use the weight of the generator itself to help aid turning the generator head.

In theory anyways. :)
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: gyulasun on October 23, 2012, 09:02:29 PM
Hi DreamThinkBuild,

Oh,  now it is ok I got it.  However, we do not know from the Filipiak patent application http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Synchronous-magneto-electric-motor/WO2007081229.html  how big role the magnets and iron included in the small rotor (what you wish to replace with the generator head, see PDF page #2) play in the total operation, together with gravitation. And remember the magnets and the iron pieces in the two big wheel rotors too and the role of the magnetic syncronizer which is not detailed but it is possible that in the right moments the syncronizer establishes a useful flux exchange between the big wheels and the small rotor, this all may contribute to the claimed higher output.  This is but a guess from me of course but if you omit these parts and effects and use a gen head instead then the operation clearly reduces to the help of the gravity only. 
Of course this may also be good for getting a certain output, especially if the generator could work at its highest efficiency rpm range.  Also, the weight of the generator could be increased somewhat if it has too small mass by attaching some weight onto its body.

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
Post by: colorado69 on March 25, 2014, 01:34:51 PM
What if yo had two magnetic balls, on + and one - inside a closed copper circle? Has anybody tried that?