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Author Topic: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?  (Read 27144 times)

Offline powercat

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2012, 04:54:38 PM »
Hi Cherryman
That's it........OK you are using hydrogen to make your ball rotate, but basically the same idea,
so the question is has anyone actually ever built one of these and generated power from it ?

That was a great thread......you and IST doing lots of testing videos and your diagrams are fantastic.
I'm not feeling that confident yet to order any parts but who knows where this research will lead.

Thanks for sharing


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2012, 04:54:38 PM »

Offline evolvingape

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2012, 10:56:39 PM »
Hi Powercat, Cherryman.
 
I came across Cherryman's HHO system a while back and have been integrating the principles for some time:
 
http://www.overunity.com/10451/rotomax-rotary-engine-tesla-wankel-mason-hho-hybrid/msg277108/#msg277108
 
I have also been working on variations of the system principles your describing Powercat, however, I do not feel the current magnet motor / generator designs can be improved upon. I am using the principles differently as it is hard to beat 96% efficiency and counting. Law of diminishing returns:
 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Diminishing+returns%2c+law+of
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor
 
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrical-motor-efficiency-d_655.html
 
http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2009/04/06/japanese-researchers-breakthrough-96-electric-motor-efficiency/
 
A Ground Effect Vehicle (GEV) is an extremely desirable toy...
 
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2781-wood-gasification-4.html#post208266
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovercraft
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_in_aircraft
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea-skimmer
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_train
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_ring
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Schauberger
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR_lCObJVJk
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dcqnEFIw3A&feature=related
 
http://www.jetlev-flyer.com/
 
The graphic design I have put up is actually a combination of many technologies, and should be fun for you to explore what each aspect does and what it can do for you...
 
Rob  ;D
 
 

 


Offline powercat

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2012, 03:22:57 PM »
Hi Rob,
wow that's a lot of links, having looked at most of them the Japanese 96% efficiency motor
Was very interesting and highlights how important a good controller is,
I think given my skill levels it is better for me to think about building a generator only,
Which could be connected to one of these Japanese motors later.

@All
Been thinking about my bicycle wheel idea and would like to share some thoughts.

If I now mount the magnet ball tube on the back wheel of a conventional bicycle,
a bit like an exercise bike with the back wheel off the ground.
When I start peddling will the magnet ball stay at the bottom of the wheel ?
I am thinking that as the toroid coils passed the ball they will produce drag but surely
the ball will more or less stay at the bottom half of the wheel ?

What is not clear is if I feel any effect of drag while I am paddling,
since there is no shaft connected from the motor to transmit drag through.

Possibly I would feel some sort of gyroscope force as speed builds up ?
...
The black is the tube.
The green is the toroid coils
The red is the magnet ball

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2012, 04:10:29 PM »
Hi Powercat,

Quote
When I start peddling will the magnet ball stay at the bottom of the wheel ?

Yes, up to a certain speed. Depends on friction of surface.

Quote
I am thinking that as the toroid coils passed the ball they will produce drag but surely
the ball will more or less stay at the bottom half of the wheel ?

This is where it gets interesting you can partially decouple the magnet from the prime mover. I've been working on something similar but using diametric magnets. You don't need to make so many coils only one coil under the bottom of the wheel. As the magnet spins in the wheel gravity will keep it at the bottom with a load it will start to oscillate back and forth in the curve of the wheel. The magnet will still experiences Lenz but the prime mover will just experience the weight and friction of moving magnet and other normal friction(bearings,etc). I've had a tiny motor being able to drive a diametric magnet that when normally coupled directly to the shaft would stall out running a load. Using this approach the motor doesn't stall out but the magnet just slows it's rotation, lowering the power output.

It's quick to build if you have the parts, all you need is a small motor, connect to hollow wheel/plastic food container, a sphere magnet or diametric magnet and a coil underneath the wheel to your output. The lower the friction surface the better.


Offline powercat

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2012, 05:10:00 PM »
Hi
I think I understand what you're saying, a video would help,
yes I could use only one coil, but if it's mounted underneath the wheel
I think there will be some drag

If I connect the coil to the wheel the Lenz affect is only on the ball,
so would I feel any Lenz affect while paddling......  If I wouldn't feel any effect
Why not have more coils for more power.

I'm not ready to do any tests yet and I would have to order parts before starting,
so it is important to know what is likely to be the best set up before ordering.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2012, 05:10:00 PM »
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Offline evolvingape

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2012, 06:17:01 PM »
Powercat,

What are the aims of your build ? A magnet ball loose in a circular toroidal close tolerance tube, with phase angle coil pickups or injectors, has no means to extract torque from the system. Both balls and coils are rotors. A rotor / stator arrangement is mandatory for interaction with all fields, especially the torque field around a spinning axis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto_%28generator%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor-stator_interaction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor

The HRT was designed to harness the torque moment from the force acting on the mass of the sphere (magnet ball) / (LFV housing). This means that C'man's HHO version has been modified to move the combustion chamber into the ball itself, fed with fuel via a centrifugal force pump already paid for as a byproduct of rotation about an axis. The HHO supply located sleeved around centre bore shaft is fluid pumped as a venturi flow. As a result a temperature differential is created and a sleeved thermoelectric generator (TEG) converts that into DC, which will access the atomic phase dimension (HHO), run as AC it will access the molecular phase change dimension (steam).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_generator

If your aiming your project at a purely information gathering excercise from personal experience then you should enjoy it. Any thoughts of an efficiency competition with the known laws of existing magnet generators and motors is almost pointless, scrapping over the last few %. Any benefit must come from an alternate property of a spinning, low friction floating magnet ball, in a driven toroid guide, that is not currently known. How will you measure for that ? How will you measure for torque generated without the drive connection to rotary moment ?

The principles discussed here and elsewhere are the seeds to a breathing 3 dimensional engine that runs on water, electricity, phase change and thermal potential difference flowing through a fluid.

Rob  :)

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2012, 08:10:13 PM »
Hi Powercat,

I just got a video uploaded to show the effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBSwhL8s1zc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2012, 08:10:13 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline powercat

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2012, 08:14:49 PM »
Powercat,
What are the aims of your build ? A magnet ball loose in a circular toroidal close tolerance tube, with phase angle coil pickups or injectors, has no means to extract torque from the system. Both balls and coils are rotors. A rotor / stator arrangement is mandatory for interaction with all fields, especially the torque field around a spinning axis.

Hi
the toroid coils are fixed to the outside of the tube and the magnet ball is loose inside the tube,
Then it is fixed to the bicycle and you paddle.  Nothing is connected to the shaft
apart from the normal bicycle wheel, so the question still is where you feel the load ?

I notice you put links to some basic information which can be useful as a reference,
but we all know if you pass a magnet over or through a copper coil you will generate power.
The type of Coil I would use depends on what's available....The right size that fits the tube nicely.
@All
What I haven't seen yet is a generator or even a motor built like this that can be shown running,
yes I have seen similar ideas that have been posted in this thread, but so far no working device,
until I see that or make it myself it is hard to know how well it would perform.

For the moment it is interesting that no one has fully developed this type of generator,
Maybe it's a complete waste of time, which is the main reason I posted this subject in half baked ideas

It is great to get feedback so keep it coming guys.

All the best
PC

Offline powercat

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2012, 08:30:57 PM »
Hi Powercat,

I just got a video uploaded to show the effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBSwhL8s1zc

Great video, that was what I was thinking your description was about, really good to see it in action.
I see there is an effect of drag slowing down the motor.

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2012, 09:06:28 PM »
Hi Powercat,

Yes, there is still drag on the motor you can see in the video when it's right on the coil. When the magnet rotation starts to slow down so does the motor but it doesn't completely stall the motor. There is another effect which the magnet is acting as a free floating gear so we have 3.5" gear to 1". The magnet is actually rotating faster than the outer cylinder, it's hard to hear on the video but as the magnet speeds up it creates a high pitched whine.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2012, 09:06:28 PM »
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Offline evolvingape

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2012, 09:21:22 PM »
Powercat,

The basics are not optional if efficiency is desired:

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/u2l4a.cfm

Newton's 3rd Law - For every action there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force.

"Consider the motion of a car on the way to school. A car is equipped with wheels that spin. As the wheels spin, they grip the road and push the road backwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the road must also be pushing the wheels forward. The size of the force on the road equals the size of the force on the wheels (or car); the direction of the force on the road (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the wheels (forwards).

For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction.

Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for cars to move along a roadway surface."

Your ball has a solid surface that will react to the drag forces acting on it, and spin about it's own axis. Your coils are rotating under variable drive and are efficient at 90 degrees orientation to your N / S magnetic axis. Your ball will either ping about, float, or drag with vector phase change. Alloy wheels do this on cars, when you accelerate but to an observer the wheels apear to stop and reverse direction.

If you pulse an electrical voltage through a coil the kick will drive the ball, a mechanical output. If you drive the ball with a working fluid, you generate a magnetic field when it passes through the coil, an electrical conversion output.

Without a mechanical method for relating the driven mass to the axis of rotation you cannot stabilise the phase angle or transmit torque. Your only option then is to go centrifugal magnetic gearbox, but that's complicated.

Interesting discussion anyway,

Rob  :)




Offline gyulasun

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2012, 11:57:07 PM »
....
@All
Been thinking about my bicycle wheel idea and would like to share some thoughts.

If I now mount the magnet ball tube on the back wheel of a conventional bicycle,
a bit like an exercise bike with the back wheel off the ground.
When I start peddling will the magnet ball stay at the bottom of the wheel ?
I am thinking that as the toroid coils passed the ball they will produce drag but surely
the ball will more or less stay at the bottom half of the wheel ?

What is not clear is if I feel any effect of drag while I am paddling,
since there is no shaft connected from the motor to transmit drag through.

Possibly I would feel some sort of gyroscope force as speed builds up ?
...
The black is the tube.
The green is the toroid coils
The red is the magnet ball

Hi Powercat,

Your bicycle wheel setup reminded me to a Polish inventor, Mr Filipiak's setup, though your setup is simpler than his,  the principle is almost similar.  DreamThinkBuild's quick test is an excellent demo on your setup.  Filipiak's setup includes permanent magnets in the 'big' wheel (which is your bicycle wheel),  in fact he used two big wheels in parallel planes.  FIRST see an animation on his setup here:   www.overunity.com/filipiak   (it is an exe file, just run it after downloading)

Then read through this old thread here (not long) and most of the links there work, except the one in member "dani" posts but most info in those nonworking links was copied and included in Stefan Hartmann's posts in that thread.
www.overunity.com/940/filipiak-motor-replication/   

Mr Filipiak filed two patent application for his setup in 1997 and in 2006, see here the first:
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=worldwide.espacenet.com&II=8&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19990118&CC=PL&NR=320975A1&KC=A1

and here the second:
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Synchronous-magneto-electric-motor/WO2007081229.html   

and further collection of videos here:  http://freenrg.info/Filipiak/

Now you can surely answer your first question yourself because your magnet ball will behave just like the cylindrical body (that includes the magnets) rolling on its shafts on the inner rims of the two big wheels,  gravity and inertia will keep it in movement, of course together with some input energy by your paddling or by a small electric motor. 
Your second question is also answered by the videos: yes your ball will stay in the bottom area of the bicycle wheel, it will swing a little bit back and forth (depending on its mass and the rpm of the wheel) and yes there will be Lenz drag when you paddling BUT it is not sure you would notice it...  I mean the gearing on the bike and ratio between the ball diameter and the bicycle diameter may shadow it,  a much better indication for this would be to monitor the small motor current draw during the operation when you load your output coils.  (DreamThinkBuild nicely explained it above.)
According to the descriptin in the thread (Reply #1), Filipiak claimed more output than input...  output was measured on the big wheel's shaft and it was max 10W equivalent mechanical power versus the input 2-3W (small motor and the syncronizer circuit)

(Unfortunately, there is no sound in the videos.)

rgds,  Gyula


Offline evolvingape

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2012, 02:17:38 PM »
Powercat,

The principles you are exploring here are well understood and almost perfected, 4% to go in some areas. What are you trying to achieve with your setup ?

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/how-does-a-generator-work.html

"Every machine like a generator is an extension of an idea or principle. Once you understand the idea or principle, understanding the working based on it is a simple job."

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/brushless-motor.htm

"In a typical DC motor, there are permanent magnets on the outside and a spinning armature on the inside. The permanent magnets are stationary, so they are called the stator. The armature rotates, so it is called the rotor."

http://alternatorparts.com/understanding_alternators.htm

ALTERNATOR ROTOR

"We'll start our tour of the alternator where it all starts in the alternator itself - at the alternator rotor. The rotor consists of a coil of wire wrapped around an iron core. Current through the wire coil - called "field" current - produces a magnetic field around the core. The strength of the field current determines the strength of the magnetic field. The field current is D/C, or direct current. In other words, the current flows in one direction only, and is supplied to the wire coil by a set of brushes and slip rings. The magnetic field produced has, as any magnet, a north and a south pole. The rotor is driven by the alternator pulley, rotating as the engine runs, hence the name "rotor.""

STATOR

"Surrounding the rotor is another set of coils, three in number, called the stator. The stator is fixed to the shell of the alternator, and does not turn. As the rotor turns within the stator windings, the magnetic field of the rotor sweeps through the stator windings, producing an electrical current in the windings. Because of the rotation of the rotor, an alternating current is produced. As, for example, the north pole of the magnetic field approaches one of the stator windings, there is little coupling taking place, and a weak current is produced, As the rotation continues, the magnetic field moves to the center of the winding, where maximum coupling takes place, and the induced current is at its peak. As the rotation continues to the point that the magnetic field is leaving the stator winding, the induced current is small. By this time, the south pole is approaching the winding, producing a weak current in the opposite direction. As this continues, the current produced in each winding plotted against the angle of rotation of the rotor has the form shown in figure 2. The three stator windings are spaced inside the alternator 120 degrees apart, producing three separate sets, or "phases," of output voltages, spaced 120 degrees apart, as shown in figure 3."

http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/technical-articles/motorcycle-stators

Some useful info on CDI systems, another aspect of the basic principles giving you electricity to HV spark conversion capability, and access to another prime mover source field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbine

"A turbine is a rotary mechanical device that extracts energy from a fluid flow and converts it into useful work. A turbine is a turbomachine with at least one moving part called a rotor assembly, which is a shaft or drum with blades attached. Moving fluid acts on the blades so that they move and impart rotational energy to the rotor. Early turbine examples are windmills and water wheels."

Rob  :)


Offline powercat

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2012, 06:09:39 PM »
Hi Gyula,
many thanks for providing this information to the double rotor device it is a fantastic quality build,
and really good to see it in action, and yes there is no real difference in the basic idea,
so the search goes on to try and find a way of producing free energy.

Hi Rob,
thank you for all the links I know it takes time to put it all together, it's been hard for me
to look at them and to post today with all the issues with the site crashing often,
hopefully Stefan will resolve these issues soon.

@All
It is good to know how quickly an idea can be investigated and researcht on this forum,
there are so many good members with knowledge and experience who are willing to share with all,
We can only hope one day we will all get their.

Never say never
PC


Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2012, 01:27:15 AM »
Hi Gyula,

Thanks for the link to Mr. Filiak's setup. I like what he did with his design. I'm wondering if you could replace the spinning magnets with a alternator or generator head. Have it suspended on a shaft rolling on the larger wheel using the weight of itself. Using bearings and framework it can be held so the axis of the generator doesn't rotate, like a seat on a Ferris wheel.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: new magnet ball in a tube motor ?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2012, 01:27:15 AM »

 

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