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Antigravity => Other antigravity machines and devices => Topic started by: chowdan on October 11, 2012, 12:39:26 AM

Title: how fast?
Post by: chowdan on October 11, 2012, 12:39:26 AM
Hi guys.

haven't been on this forum in a very long time.

I have a few questions. If you took a disc, say 3ft in diameter(random size i picked), how would you calculate how fast the disc had to rotate before it would have enough force to lift it off the ground?

What would the calculation be and how does one figure out the calculation?

After thinking about all these circular shaped "ufos", i thought, what if they are just spining so god damn fast to keep themselves in the air? Granted im sure most of you have seen only videos that contained "lights" or photos of these "ufos". But how do we know they aren't actually spinning?

I imagined a aircraft that is a disc shape, but yet, the structure of the craft was similar to a bicycle wheel. If you take a bicycle wheel and stick a rod through the center(where it mounts on the bike) you are able to spin the wheel while the rod is stationary. What if we took this idea/concept and applied it towards a flying vehicle? The outer section of the disk shaped craft could be spinning while the center of the craft would be stationary (although being on the inside of a craft spinning at such speeds might be kind of interesting way to commit suicide).

Would this be a possible design? Has anyone ever attempted such designs on model or full scale?

I'm open to hear what people have to say, so let your ideas loose!
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: cristache on October 11, 2012, 01:22:29 AM
Why it would lift if you spin it?
Hmm..
Let's say you have a ring 1 meter diameter (little more than 3 feet) for calculation simplicity
Let's say if you spin that ring fast enough the linear speed of the ring will be so high that the centrifugal force relative to earth center will exceed gravity.
Let's assume it will work
then we need 2mv^2/d >= mg (that is centrifugal force bigger than gravity pull)
simplified:
2v^2/d > g
or v > sqrt(gd/2) - (that's square root)
where:
v - rim velocity in meter/sec
d - earth diameter in meter (12,715,430)
g - gravitational constant, aprox 10m/sec^2
v should be greater than 7,973 meters/second (that's almost 5 miles per second)
give the ring diameter of 1 meter that would translate into
rotations per second = v / (pi d) = 2,539
or in rpm 152,340
Let's say you can spin something that fast (thinking here a toroid instead of ring with mercury plasma confined in magnetic field)
for a mass of 1 kg of plasma spinning that fast around 1 m diameter torus the centrifugal force is
m v^2 / r = 1 kg x 7,973 x 7,973 / 0.5 = 127,137,458 N.
That is 12.7 tons of force (28 million pounds force). What material can resist this pressure?
Or how much energy you need to put in the confining magnetic field to maintain the plasma inside?

Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: cristache on October 11, 2012, 01:38:37 AM
So if you have a 10 meter diameter ufo the force reduces to 1.27 tons.
Now it depends on the surface that 1 Kg is pushing.
assuming 100 square centimeters (4" x 4" aprox) and let's say A36 steel with yield strength of 250 MPa (mega Pascal, 1 Pascal = 0.1 Kg/square meter
The calculated pressure is
1,270 Kg / 0.1 (100 square centimeters in square meters) = 12 MPa which is under A36 steel capability so yes it will work
Question is how do you spin it that fast. I mean you realize cannot be something mechanical at 10 meter diameter.
A jet engine might spin 30,000 rpm and diameter is way smaller and you need 150,000 rpm

Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 03:33:52 AM
It is possible to lift a metal disc by spinning it extremely fast but it would need lots of energy because of friction. A real ufo doesnt have a spinning disc but instead a super magnetic fluid which has zero friction so that it can rotate extremely fast in a enclosed donut container thats why ufo has a dics shape. But the question is how can a ufo make a side way propulsion? How can it make sharp turn? How can it cancel the effect of inertia? How can it fly without friction? Why it doesnt make a sonic boom? How they can travel extremely fast unaffected by solar flare, space dust particle and small rocks.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: cristache on October 11, 2012, 03:55:24 AM
If they do they should have 2 spinning masses, or whatever, in opposite directions, both creating a counter centrifugal force against earth center.
But I'm more in the favor of manipulating electro-magnetic fields.
Whittaker (http://www.rexresearch.com/whittakr/whittakr.htm) makes a demonstration which tells the laplace equation driven phenomena (electrostatic law and gravitation law) can be created by longitudinal standing waves.
Tesla was mentioning a spacecraft with a high DC voltage on the upper shell and high frequency high voltage on the lower shell will create propulsion
Tesla was saying the high frequency, HV on the lower shell will "rigidify" the aether - that sounds to work hand in hand with Whittaker longitudinal waves
Also the HV DC on the upper shell might destroy the longitudinal vibrations due to biasing them.
Paulo and Alexandra Correa have a patent where from a small tesla coil a wire from the secondary capacitor begin connected to a small sheet of gold, reduced the sheet weight.
There was an experimental numerical calculation with a sphere in a medium where there were a lot of oscillators of different frequencies. The end result was a pressure on the sphere, much like we feel the gravity but we say it's a pull. I strongly believe is a push from outside based on all the above.
Why nobody could measure a very sensitive pendulum displacement next to a big mountain (big mass) to prove Newton theory?
Besides newton gives a measure to the force but no explanation.
Einstein space-time curvature is a non-sense. What a heck is space-time. That's a convention in calculus, a metric we measure something (x,y,x,time)

Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 04:07:34 AM
Einstein space-time curvature
is a non-sense. What a heck is
space-time. That's a
convention in calculus, a
metric we measure something (x,y,x,time)

-end of quote-

Its not a nonsense, it means time and space can change and it also means that time travel and teleportation are possible.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: cristache on October 11, 2012, 04:10:06 AM
What do you mean by time can change? What is changing?
What do you mean by space can change? What's your definition of space?
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 04:16:14 AM
Every object that was moving has a different time but it is not noticiable beacause the difference was extremely small. It will become noticiable only if u will going to travel extremely fast. For example if u was travelling at half of speed light, your time is much slower compared to the earth time so will aged much slower. That means you are in slow motion.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: cristache on October 11, 2012, 04:23:34 AM
A different time compared with what?
So you do accept that you measure something, so time is a measurable entity and we measure it with a clock or something.
So a time change is the difference between the time showed a while ago compared with the time showed by the same measuring device now while observing something.
Is this a proof of "space-time curvature as source of gravity"? I believe not.
And talking about time while in high speed and at low speed. Remember the twin paradox? One travels speed of light the other is on earth stationary, the one which traveler comes back younger than the other one. Think of this, according with Einstein theory all observable phenomenons should respect the same laws regardless of the referential system. So let's put the reference system on the rocket (everything is relative, no?) and now the earth is moving with speed of light compared with the rocket. We're in agreement with Einstein!
So who's older now, the one on earth or the one on the rocket?

I still don't have a definition of "space" from your...
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 04:32:37 AM
Ofcourse the one on the earth was the older. Time goes slow when u travel faster. Time also goes slow when u are on planet that has high mass or gravity.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: cristache on October 11, 2012, 04:54:35 AM
earth travels with the speed of light and rocket is stationary. How the one on earth is older?
Remember we can put the referential system anywhere we like - per Einstein relativity theory.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 07:16:51 AM
Huh? I did not notice it.. This time the one on the rocket was older. Your post was confusing and please post only a logical example. At speed of light time will completely stop. Some scientist think that when we travel faster than speed of light, time goes backward. Its means we can travel back in time. But for me its impossible, my theory is when we travel faster than speed of light, we can teleport. The time difference of departure and arrival is depend on how many times faster you are compared to the speed of light. 
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: cristache on October 11, 2012, 07:23:45 AM
Whatever, closer to the speed of light. Same idea, you get a contradiction since you cannot tell which is older just by changing the reference system.
The reality is the same, one travels compared with the other closer to the speed of light
Another example is to put the referential system traveling at high speed between rocket and earth. Now both of them have the same speed compared with this new reference system
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 07:39:59 AM
I already said the one on the rocket was the older because he was not moving and the earth was moving. I just confuse at first thats why my first post was wrong. You will never ever find the absolute time because all galaxy including our own galaxy are expanding very fast so our time now are quite slow even we are not moving.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: cristache on October 11, 2012, 07:56:09 AM
You missed the point.
earth and rocket are moving one relative to another with 0.9c
If you put the referential system on the rocket, the twin on rocket gets older
if you put the referential system on earth, the twin on earth gets older
if you put the referential system always half distance, moving at constant seep between earth and rocket the twins have the same age at experiment end.
Since there is one phenomenon there should be one single outcome, regardless of the referential system.
A twin cannot be in the same time older and younger than the other.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 08:16:42 AM
Do u have proof on your claim? Where can i read that changing reference frame have the effect on aging? Sorry to say but im sure your wrong..
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: bugler on October 11, 2012, 09:22:03 AM
Einstein's theories are rubbish.


Whatever is said by a member of the self-chosen becomes truth and sacred.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: chowdan on October 11, 2012, 10:44:09 PM

Interesting debate going on.

Obviously you all are much more intelligent than i am because I was lost from the beginning(I knew I would be)


What are you guy's backgrounds/degrees?




I have a question though. How does one prove that "A real ufo doesnt have a spinning disc but instead a super magnetic fluid"?
To my knowledge, no one has proof of this information, and if so, then why the hell aren't we trying to publicly produce units like this for commercial sale. This sort of thing would be changing the lives of all of us and for the better. Not only produce them but acknowledge they are real?


As for why they can turn on a dime, accelerate to a speed of unknown without having the gforce killing the being inside? Who knows, maybe the "ufo" has no beings inside? Maybe they are just probes, drones like what the us sends to monitor air space in areas we shouldn't be?


But I had been thinking about how would you get something, of that size and mass to spin at a speed of say, 100,000-300,000+ RPM.


My theory is if you can not only levitate a train using an electromagnetic rail, but use the maglev as a propulsion system, why not implement this in the design. You could have the outer shell connected to a main shaft(again looking back to a bicycle wheel), where the shaft is a cylinder that houses a person, electronics, what ever is needed to be housed. The putter shell would then be able to be spun using the electro magnets. this would cut down on friction the shell experiences.


I'm not saying this is a viable option, but hey, nor is over-unity and "free energy", otherwise people would be doing it already.


Now the question is, if this shell is spun via electro magnets, how will this affect the weight?


I am not an engineer, but I know that a magnet that would be required to will weigh a shit ton(not even including the power source that would be required to fuel this beast), but you would need multiple magnets arranged in a series to get it to spin effectively.


But for test purposes, you wouldn't need said power supply onboard. In a small scale model you would only really need something like a data link cable(to connect the electro mags to a computer to time your firing of each magnet), and a power cable with the appropriate gage that would be required  to support the power requirements.




The next question is, what the fuck do you build it out of? cristache mentioned A36 steel. Which to his calculation, should withstand the forces. But what if we look into reinforcing a plastic?


I have always been a fan of plastic. I was raised in Fiji. Education was limited due to having parents with 6 other kids(me being the last one), and being burned out(i was a oppsy). They gave up, didn't care about me, nor my education. So imagine (if you had kids), what they would be like if you didn't push them to do homework, or even go to school and had the option to go surfing, or help out captaining a deepsea fishing boat at resorts? I can almost guarantee 99% of all kids will say I want to go fishing and surfing and diving instead of crunching numbers, writing essays and such.


With that said, I spent most of my time on boats, deep sea fishing, learning nonsense, useless shit that does not mean anything in the corporate world (I work in the IT field). Knowing how to match deepsea lures to the weather/water to catch a fish does nothing, nor being able to tell when it is going to rain does nothing. Or even being able to grow just about any thing along with being able to plan a farm for ones survival.


Now that you know that about me, spending 90% of my time in a boat out in the middle of the ocean, i have seen much plastic. So many bottles, bags, containers, anything and everything. I've always had the idea of, lets recycle that plastic and melt it down into a mold that is a hull shape for a boat. A fully recycled boat, made of plastic bottles, not only would it help the planet, but it puts that shit back to use and you will have maintenance to deal with.


I know that since my knowledge is so limited, i can't answer if a plastic be strong enough to withstand a force of spinning at 100k+ RPM's, or even a remote possible.  I mean i'm sure if there is some sort of plastic that you can manufacture/recycle to withstand these types of speeds, and forces that come with it, but the question is, would it be lighter than steel?



Also on another note, maybe you could cut the speed down if you added some sort of hood scoop to the top or maybe the outer edge of the craft to funnel airflow into a chamber that would then funnel it out the bottom to help "levitate" the whole unit? It would then basically be very similar to a giant spinning turbine engine without the outer shell.




Again these are just ideas, not reality, but I thought maybe one day it would be interesting to see a small concept/prototype.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: cristache on October 12, 2012, 01:08:07 AM
@ Neo-X
I made no claim. All I'm saying is one cannot assume one twin will be older than the other one when the experiment is done.
And I respected Einstein theory in the logical explanation.
So next time people think traveling at a close to c velocity, they are aging slower compared with a stationary person we know that's not true.

Now there is a debate here if there is an aether moving around and creating all the matter in the universe and there is an absolute fixed frame of reference, the aether is moving relative to.
Take a look here http://www.rhythmodynamics.com/Gabriel_LaFreniere/matter.htm
Consider this (http://www.rhythmodynamics.com/Gabriel_LaFreniere/matter_files/Doppler_conv.gif) an electron standing wave moving to the left. The wave fronts are getting closer and closer and we experience that as a mass increase or energy increase like in E=mc^2.
The limit will be c, the speed of light, that being also how fast the waves are departing from the electron center. So the electron is creating those waves and by moving is trying to catch it's own wave fronts. It will not be able to overcome that.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on October 12, 2012, 08:03:31 AM
Interesting.. I read the link you post. They believe that all the matter is composed only of eather. Maybe its true a different wave pattern of eather can make a different particles like electron and proton. But still its just a theory and no supporting evidence.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 12, 2012, 09:08:21 AM
But still its just a theory and no supporting evidence.
if it has no supporting evidence... that would be a hypothesis. you're 28? and you don't even know what a theory is?
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on October 12, 2012, 01:44:28 PM
.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on October 12, 2012, 01:45:31 PM
English is not my native language. Im good only when reading but in speaking im really bad. You will notice that almost all my post are edited and im not speak too much.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: wings on February 07, 2013, 09:32:19 AM
take a look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26-1AxIufHg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26-1AxIufHg)
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: HH on February 08, 2013, 10:46:12 PM
Hi there
I was just thinking , if the Einstein twins and slower time would be just a Doppler effect and nothing else ?
If the observer on earth, could see the clock in the rocket , going half of the speed of light , clock would bee seen as going at half speed.
Same with the twin ageing slower.
The thing not mentioned is that, if the rocket reverse with the same speed , clock will go faster ? Similar to ambulance going towards you, and the way pitch changes ?
It's again "things are not the way you see them" they are what they are :)
And if the speed of light is not the limit ( why would it ? ) , I wonder what the equivalent of sonic boom would be ? What if that is the explanation for ufo's appearing ad disappearing ?
And about time travel.
If you know the paradox of going back in time and shooting younger yourself in the head , for me it's enough proof for time travel being impossible.
I'm ready for getting flamed :)
cheers




Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: HH on February 08, 2013, 10:49:16 PM
English is not my native language. Im good only when reading but in speaking im really bad. You will notice that almost all my post are edited and im not speak too much.
I'm the same , so please understand , that we are very restricted with expressing our thoughts .
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on February 09, 2013, 07:13:57 AM
@HH

Time dilation is not related on doppler effect. About the rocket going reverse, the clock on it will not go faster instead it will go slow. All matter moving in any direction reverse or forward the time on it will go slow. I will explain to you how time dilation works. Light and particle like electron travel at speed of c and this speed doesnt change whether you are on high speed spacecraft travelling half of speed of light, it always at speed of c. Electrons is the responsible why there is a chemical change and chemical change is responsible why we undergo aging. Now when we are in spacecraft moving at very high speed, our electrons in our body and all matter in the spacecraftt is lag behind, slowing the movement of electrons and thus aging. Even clock on it will tick slowly bcoz the electrons through the wire are moving slowly. If the spacecraft traveling at speed of light, (electrons and spacecraft will now travelling at the same speed) your electrons in your body will completely stop from flowing through different parts of your body preventing chemical change and aging.

So it was possible to go in the future but it is impossible to go in the fast and one of reason is the twin paradox like you said. In order to go back in time, all matter should go in previous state which is impossible.

I have a lot of going to say but my  english skill are limited.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: HH on February 10, 2013, 09:39:24 PM
Time dilation is not related on doppler effect.

Why ?
I think , that doppler effects with light were rejected only because it would be a proof for aether to exist.
A medium to propagate light and em waves . If you take a medium affecting and restricting the speed of light into account , you could compare all the weird things happening , to sound waves restricted by air.
I'm not physicist , only trying to understand things :)   
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: HH on February 10, 2013, 10:02:49 PM
Electrons is the responsible why there is a chemical change and chemical change is responsible why we undergo aging. Now when we are in spacecraft moving at very high speed, our electrons in our body and all matter in the spacecraftt is lag behind, slowing the movement of electrons and thus aging.

With all the respect , this I cannot digest.
Why would the speed affect biological functions ?
And which direction ? Related to what point in space ?
I've red the articles about relativity theory and time dilution. 
Don't get it. And I'm not afraid to admit this.
Someone written before that most physicist don't get it. They just afraid to say it. :)
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: Neo-X on February 11, 2013, 04:00:13 AM

With all the respect , this I cannot digest.
Why would the speed affect biological functions ?
And which direction ? Related to what point in space ?
I've red the articles about relativity theory and time dilution. 
Don't get it. And I'm not afraid to admit this.
Someone written before that most physicist don't get it. They just afraid to say it. :)

Even your mind doesnt want to accept it, theres nothing you can do but to accept it bcoz thats the real law of nature..  :D
Yeah theres some scientist cant fully understand and accept this coz it conflict in our common sense.
Title: Re: how fast?
Post by: wings on February 13, 2013, 11:44:23 AM
Even your mind doesnt want to accept it, theres nothing you can do but to accept it bcoz thats the real law of nature..  :D
Yeah theres some scientist cant fully understand and accept this coz it conflict in our common sense.

hampering innovation dogmas

http://www.ekkehard-friebe.de/dogmen.html (http://www.ekkehard-friebe.de/dogmen.html)

http://www.ekkehard-friebe.de/profil.html (http://www.ekkehard-friebe.de/profil.html)