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Author Topic: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY  (Read 5406074 times)

Offline Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18240 on: October 12, 2017, 08:56:12 PM »
Hi Itsu. Yes, the ringing frequency seems higher than just from the L and C values alone.
Good observation. The original article that I referenced states:
"The resonant circuit formed by L2 and C1 when Q1 is turned on rings at a frequency of:
F=1/(2*PI*sqrt(L2*C1))"
From what they said, the ringing is supposed to be determined by the capacitor and inductor values used,
but, yes, that doesn't appear to match my test results.

There are also two diodes in there and the MOSFET, and it may actually be that the ringing
frequency is determined by the L value and the capacitance of the diodes and MOSFET in
series/parallel with the capacitor to get that higher ringing frequency. Changing the capacitor value
does seem to influence the ringing frequency however. I think I tried it with some larger capacitor values
between 0.1 uF and 1 uF and the ringing was at a lower frequency.

From my testing, an L value of around 450uH does not give good results, so I would
suggest trying at least 1 mH or higher for the L value.


Hi Nick. If you have any questions on it, feel free to ask me.
I am attaching a schematic drawing which shows how the non-dissipative
snubber, consisting of one capacitor, one inductor, and two diodes, connects
between the MOSFET Drain and Source and V+.  'V+' is the power supply plus terminal
which connects to the center tap of the yoke primary winding.
You would need two non-dissipative snubbers. One for each MOSFET in the PWM driver.

I am going to try using a couple of commercially wound 1 mH toroids for the inductors.
They are wound on an approximate one inch (25.4mm) outer diameter toroid.
I plan to solder my snubbers to my MOSFETs on a perf board this evening if I
have enough time, so it might be better to wait before ordering any parts for me to solder
together my snubber circuits and connect to my PWM driver and retest it to make sure all is OK.
Once I have it all soldered together using the 1mH toroids, I will restest my PWM driver board and
let you know if it is still working about the same as in my previous test. If everything is still
working about the same, then I will have more confidence that the non-dissipative snubber circuit
works reliably with the component values I am using.

P.S. I had accidentally omitted labelling the other two diodes in my previous drawing of the snubber circuits,
so I re-uploaded the drawing with the other two diodes labelled. :) I am using UF4007 diodes for all the diodes
in the snubbers.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 02:54:23 AM by Void »

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18240 on: October 12, 2017, 08:56:12 PM »

Offline Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18241 on: October 13, 2017, 06:08:48 AM »
I soldered my snubber board together and have started retesting. 
I am getting different results now, but I did make a couple of changes from
my previous setup. I don't have the two varistors connected in from the Drain to Source
of each MOSFET yet, and I added a 10uF cap from V+ (at the yoke primary center tap)
to ground.

I am getting quite different results now, but it may be due to the 10uF cap I added at V+.
Now I don't get the high frequency ringing any more, but just a single pulse that is limited
at a lower peak voltage. This is causing diodes D3 and D4 to get hot with V+ set only
to 12V. With V+ at 24V it looks like they could well burn. I am going to need to do
more testing yet, but my guess is the addition of the 10uF cap at V+ may be the reason why
things are working differently now. I will try removing the 10uF cap when I get a chance and
see if it starts working the way it did previously. If I leave the 10uF cap in, it seems I would have
to go with a different type of diode which can handle a fair bit more current.

See the attached scope shot of what I am getting at the moment with the 10uF connected.

Nick, it seems it might be an idea to hold off on the non-dissipative snubbers for the time being,
unless you don't mind spending some time experimenting with different values to try to find
the best configuration for your setup.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline itsu

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18242 on: October 13, 2017, 10:47:06 AM »
Void,

thanks for the info; that spike is rather "thick", so probably contains a fair amount of energy, but on the other hand it will stay within
your MOSFETs max voltage (200V) range when on 24V probably.

I do notice your V+ is sagging during the off time (when the other MOSFET is on), so are you sure your V+ ps is up to the job?

Furthermore, the diodes (D1 - D4) in the original paper are shown as schottky diodes, perhaps they are better suited for this situation.


Itsu

Offline Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18243 on: October 13, 2017, 12:47:16 PM »
Hi Itsu. I am not sure why I am getting different results now, but I guess maybe
the addition of the 10 uF cap. I will test more later when I get the chance. I thought
about it further, and another thing that is different now is I have two of these snubbers
connected now, but when I tested previously I only had one connected to one of the MOSFETs. 
Not sure yet if that could be a factor at all or not.

It's certainly possible that Schottky diodes could behave differently in this setup. I used the
UF4007 diodes because I already had some available, and they are fast recovery diodes.
The power supply I have been testing with is a bench power supply, and at 12V my test setup is
drawing less than 1 Amp, which shouldn't be a problem for the bench power supply.

Anyway, just wanted to post those new test results for something to watch out for, in case anyone
else was thinking of trying this type of snubber. I still have some more investigating to do to see
if I can figure out why I am getting different results now. The joys of snubbery. :)

All the best...



Offline MenofFather

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18244 on: October 13, 2017, 06:22:17 PM »
Quote
Now I don't get the high frequency ringing any more, but just a single pulse that is limited [/size]at a lower peak voltage. This is causing diodes D3 and D4 to get hot with V+ set only to 12V. With V+ at 24V it looks like they could well burn.
Maybe try use shottky diodes 40-100 V?


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18244 on: October 13, 2017, 06:22:17 PM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18245 on: October 13, 2017, 10:22:33 PM »
Maybe try use shottky diodes 40-100 V?

Hi Menof. Welcome back! Long time no see. :)

My concern about using Schottky diodes is they typically don't have a very high
reverse voltage rating, and there are voltage spikes on the MOSFET Drains of
250+ volts peak with a power supply voltage of only 12V. This is why I used the
UF4007 diodes, because they have a reverse voltage rating of 1000V, so there should be
no danger of them blowing due to the voltage spikes. The diodes in these non-dissipative snubbers
may not see voltage peaks that high however, so a Schottky diode with a reverse voltage rating
of 100 volts or even less might possibly be ok. I would have to do some voltage measurements
on the diodes with my scope when the PWM driver is running to see what kind of voltage
swings the diodes get on them. 12R06D fast recovery diodes are another option (600V, 12A), but
Schottky diodes with a lower reverse voltage rating may still be ok, and may possibly work even
better than than regular fast recovery diodes in these snubbers.


I disconnected the 10uF at V+, and the Drain waveforms are more similar to what I saw in
my previous testing with some high frequency ringing, but not as much high frequency
ringing as previously. I don't have the two varistors connected in right now however, so they
may have contributed to the more prominent high frequency ringing previously and the lower
spike voltage peaks. Not sure.

With the 10uF cap disconnected from V+, all the diodes in the non-dissipative snubbers
are staying pretty cool however. They have just a little warming to the touch. The 2W resistors
in my series RC snubbers are only getting a little bit warm as well. The MOSFETs are staying
completely cool with only small heat sinks on them. I let the PWM driver run for about 5 minutes
with the 10uF cap disconnected and the non-dissipative snubber diodes and series RC snubber resistors
were only a little warm to the touch after the 5 mnutes. The MOSFETs were still completely cool.
The limited switching pulses were not balanced between my two FETs with the 10uF disconnected,
so not sure why. :) See the attached scope shot

Putting an electrolytic cap right at the yoke winding center tap point (V+) gives a cleaner and better
spike reduction, but you will need diodes that can handle a higher current than the UF4007
diodes can handle (1 Amp rating). 12R06D diodes or some type of Schottky diodes are a possible choice.

I still haven't tested at 24 volts yet however, but the non-dissipative snubbers may not keep the
spikes below 200V peak with a V+ of 24V. I need to add a better low pass filter setup for my
power supply before I test with 24 VDC. For now though, I think more experimenting with
different component value choices for the non-dissipative snubber might be a good idea to
to try to get even better results before trying with a  V+ of 24V. Without the 10uF cap connected,
the UF4007 diodes only get a bit warm with a V+ of 12V, but they may get too hot if using a
V+ of 24V.  It looks like I may well need to make some component value changes yet in those
non-dissipative snubbers to try to get better results before moving to testing with 24V. :)

The Allega RCD snubber configuration using around say a 10 Watt ceramic resistor value of 680 Ohms
or 820 Ohms may be less hassle if you don't want to mess around experimenting with different component
values with the non-dissipative snubber, even though the RCD snubber is less efficient...

P.S. I just looked it up and you can get Schottly diodes with quite high reverse voltage ratings and
high current ratings as well, so that might be the way to go since Schottky diodes have a lower
forward voltage drop, so less power consumption than regular diodes. Maybe I will give it a try,
but I would have to order some Schottky diodes first. :)

All the best...


Offline NickZ

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18246 on: October 14, 2017, 12:45:45 AM »
  Perhaps a heavy duty snubber system like the one in this video below, may be what is needed to deal with the heat on the resistors.
  Itsu, notice the 47 and 56 ohm white ceramic resistors in the video, same values as what I had on.
I can't tell what the blue caps are. I'd need Hoppy's magnifier for that, or someone that can understand what he's saying about those blue caps.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqurZk12qIk&feature=youtu.be

   I used a similar white 2.2k ceramic resistor on the Oleg snubber, and it still got hot.
   Carbon, ceramic, wirewound, non wirewound, all get hot. The higher the ohm value of the Oleg snubber resistor, the hotter the RC snubber resistors get.
   I can get RM at lower voltages, at times now, like at around 150v and also the effect from hand movements on the antenna, etz... But, the resistors get hot at resonance, still. Too hot at loads over 100w.
The load is also an important consideration, as each bulb added, changes everything.

  Itsu: If I just use the blue 2000v caps on the RC snubber, and just a 1k ohm on the Oleg snubber,  I get real nice signals, almost perfect. But the resistors can't handle it after just a short while. However, the math provided for their values was right, though.

  Any ways, I'll wait a few days for you guys to have a chance to work the non dissapating snubber tests, or I might just jump in, even beforehand.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18246 on: October 14, 2017, 12:45:45 AM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18247 on: October 14, 2017, 01:06:34 AM »
Just measured the voltage on the cathode of diode D3 in the non-dissipative snubber.
With a V+ of 12V it is peaking at around 150V. If you use a V+ of 24V it is probably
going to be a fair bit higher, so Schottky or fast recovery diodes with a reverse breakdown
voltage of at least 250V would seem to be a good idea. A reverse breakdown voltage of 500V
or higher would probably be even safer.

The yellow trace shows the waveform on the cathode of diode D3 with V+ at 12V.

Nick, you could maybe go with a 10 Watt ceramic block resistor and it may well be able to take the
heat even if it gets really hot. You can get ceramic block power resistors that are metal oxide film.


Offline Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18248 on: October 14, 2017, 04:02:22 AM »
Ok, I soldered in my ERZ-V10D151 varistors from Drain to Source on each MOSFET
and retested with V+ at 12V and again at 24V, and it is seems to be working acceptably.
With the 10uF cap disconnected from V+ now, I get no heating on the UF4007 diodes even at V+ = 24V.
The MOSFETS stay completely cool to the touch as well at 24V.

The only components that are getting hot at 24 V are the 220 Ohm 2 Watt resistors I am using
in the series RC snubbers, so I will eventually change those out with 5 Watt ceramic block resistors
and I should be able to run steady at 24V without the resistors overheating.

The non-dissipative snubbers are working OK using the UF4007 diodes with no electrolytic
connected to the yoke center tap, so I think I will stick with this for now unless I run
into new problems later on when I am doing my experimenting with different setups.
So there you go. The component values I am using may not be optimal, but they are at
least keeping the switching spikes below 200V, so not so bad I guess.

Itsu, I notice the current limiting light on my bench power supply is flickering on when I
use it to power the PWM driver board, so that probably accounts to some extent for the drooping
waveforms you mentioned. Something odd is that when I put even just a 100uH choke in the
power supply V+ line, it chokes out the rectangular waves on the toroid primary. I just get
big switching spikes but the rectangular waveforms are all degraded. What choke value
are you using in your power supply V+ line, if you are using one?

All the best...


Offline itsu

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18249 on: October 14, 2017, 10:43:57 AM »

Void,

thanks for this info, i wonder why this 10uF cap has such an impact, it should only more filter the 12/24V supply voltage.

I have build a small pcb with a non dissipative snubber consisting of 1mH inductors, 0.1uF caps and UF4007 diodes.
I will be testing tonight.   
I have some BAT46 schottky diodes  (100V), but i doubt they can handle the abuse like you mention. 
Else some D12G60C schottky diodes (12A / 600V) are available too.

The last weeks i was using batteries for both 12V and 24V supply voltages, so without any filter chokes or caps.
Since the last video i use a 24V (and 12V) cheap led PS with added common mode choke (7mH) and filter caps (900uF elco, 230nF poly and 0.1uF ceramic) on its output.

For protection i have a 6A fast fuse in the 24V line to the yoke.

Itsu

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18249 on: October 14, 2017, 10:43:57 AM »
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Offline MenofFather

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18250 on: October 14, 2017, 01:34:07 PM »
How I known and understand, shottky diodes have wery small input capasistance, so they not works like capasitors, UF diodes or other, works like capasitors partialy. Expeshaly low voltage shottky diodes are wery fast, much faster (maybe 10 or 100 times), than UF and SF diodes and other silicon diodes and almost not have capassitance. So maybe this peaks in Void oscilograms is from slow UF diodes, whose works like capassitors? And to reduce peak voltage on snubbers, maybe need use bigger capasistance capasitor in not dissipation snuber?

Offline AlienGrey

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18251 on: October 14, 2017, 02:48:57 PM »
Hi all yes  there are many snubber circuits to be honest I have my circuit working just fine, so I wont be using your RC circuit as it is still in the development stages, years ago my mouther bought a Hover 'dust-et' vacuum cleaner It was impossible to have the radio or TV on when it was running, it had an RC suppressor I had to put some VDR device across the C to shut the dam thing up  ;D 8).

In your circuit some thing is not right you don't have a any way to drain the capacitor as it will just charge up until the MosFet conducts and drains the capacitor adding excess current to the conducting MosFets load, you would need  a fast diode to stop the back EMF getting back to the MosFet  going from 12 volts to 24 Volts will only add to your problems, my point is this type of circuit is fine in a vacuum cleaner as it has no voltage sensitive components. Your circuit experimental and I can't tell from the paperwork if the diodes are Schottky or fast Zener family or if the circuit works but it has no way to remove HV spikes, and the value of C is charge against time (frequency) is your F constant ? Will it under cut or over pass and is it the correct circuit for your application ? of course you could ask TK for a second opinion, but anyway good luck lads. I'm more than happy if you can prove me wrong  ;D

AG


Offline Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18252 on: October 14, 2017, 03:28:56 PM »
Void,
thanks for this info, i wonder why this 10uF cap has such an impact, it should only more filter the 12/24V supply voltage.
I have build a small pcb with a non dissipative snubber consisting of 1mH inductors, 0.1uF caps and UF4007 diodes.
I will be testing tonight.   
I have some BAT46 schottky diodes  (100V), but i doubt they can handle the abuse like you mention. 
Else some D12G60C schottky diodes (12A / 600V) are available too.

The last weeks i was using batteries for both 12V and 24V supply voltages, so without any filter chokes or caps.
Since the last video i use a 24V (and 12V) cheap led PS with added common mode choke (7mH) and filter caps (900uF elco, 230nF poly and 0.1uF ceramic) on its output.
For protection i have a 6A fast fuse in the 24V line to the yoke.
Itsu

Hi Itsu. It will be interesting to see how your non-dissipative snubber compares
to my setup. I also still don't understand why my adding the 10uF cap at the toroid primary
center tap causes some of the UF4007 diodes to get hot. I should test with that further as I was
getting better switching spike reduction with the 10uF connected.

I find it very odd that when I place a 100uH choke in my power supply V+ line
that it degrades the rectangular waveforms quite a lot. I need to investigate this further
as well to see if I can figure out what the problem is there.


How I known and understand, shottky diodes have wery small input capasistance, so they not works like capasitors, UF diodes or other, works like capasitors partialy. Expeshaly low voltage shottky diodes are wery fast, much faster (maybe 10 or 100 times), than UF and SF diodes and other silicon diodes and almost not have capassitance. So maybe this peaks in Void oscilograms is from slow UF diodes, whose works like capassitors? And to reduce peak voltage on snubbers, maybe need use bigger capasistance capasitor in not dissipation snuber?

Hi Menof. You may well be right that using Schottky diodes could give a lot
better results. It is worth trying to compare the results. I would have to order some,
as the Schottky diodes I have on hand only have a reverse voltage rating of 100V and 60V.
Yes, changing the C value might give better results as well.

All the best...

Offline itsu

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18253 on: October 14, 2017, 05:40:07 PM »

First result with my non dissipative snubber instead of the Oleg snubber.
I still have the RC snubbers in place and varistors (140V clamping) across the drain / sources.

I am in resonance with a 40W bulb on the Grenade output, pulling almost 6A from my 24V battery stack.

Further results and video later tonight but it looks better then the Oleg snubber, nothing gets really hot, just somewhat elevated temperatures

Yellow and blue traces are across the both MOSFET drains.


Itsu

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Offline Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18254 on: October 14, 2017, 06:45:46 PM »
Hi Itsu. That's looking pretty good. I am not clear if you are using two
non-dissipative snubbers, one for each MOSFET?

I will reconnect my 10uF cap at V+ and retest to see if any of my UF4007 diodes
still get hot now that I have the varistors connected in.

All the best...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #18254 on: October 14, 2017, 06:45:46 PM »

 

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