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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 346966 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #75 on: November 26, 2012, 12:34:15 PM »
Are you even reading my posts?

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #75 on: November 26, 2012, 12:34:15 PM »

Offline poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #76 on: November 26, 2012, 02:47:23 PM »
Are you even reading my posts?

No, he doesn't. Lawrence only cherry picks things that support his fantasies.

Trying to teach Lawrence is somewhat similar to trying to teach Rosemary Ainslie; it's a futile endeavour.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #77 on: November 26, 2012, 03:40:17 PM »
No, he doesn't. Lawrence only cherry picks things that support his fantasies.

Trying to teach Lawrence is somewhat similar to trying to teach Rosemary Ainslie; it's a futile endeavour.

Hey, at least I got him to consider the AC vs DC coupling issue. Maybe only because it makes his output power measurements look larger when DC coupled, but at least he tried it, instead of trying to tell me I was fos like Ainslie does.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #78 on: November 26, 2012, 11:14:44 PM »
I got comments that the nov 22a.xlsx file was too big (>5M) and some people could not open it.
I shall break it up in pieces and explain each piece in detail.
The file consisted of the following main parts:
1. CSV file of Input and Output of the basic JT using components from the Lead-out Energy Research Kit.
2. CSV file of the same but with the 2.3V 10F capacitor connected in parallel with the battery.
3. CSV file of the same but with the battery disconnected at minute 0.
4. CSV file of the same but with the battery disconnected after 3 minutes.
DC coupling was selected.  Case 1,2,3 showed COP < 1 but case 4 showed COP > 1 (-6.4)!
Case 4 was then repeated and the same result occurred.
After double, triple checking, 30 of these oscilloscope-test-ready boards will be sent to top Universities.  They will have the top-of-the-line oscilloscopes to confirm the results.
Meanwhile my explanations will be on the results of the Atten Oscilloscope without the 4 channel and the maths functions.  There are limitations which I know about.  You are welcome to point them out again or point out new doubtful areas.
Those of you who can build JT and have 2.3V 10F capacitors can repeat the experiment now.  make sure you use DC Coupling on your DSO. ;)
 


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2012, 01:00:46 AM »
Fausto:

We are going to revisit the mechanical power issue again.

I am going to quote Mark Euthansius from the comments from the recent PESN article about Jue Newman:

Quote
The video lined in the current article says 900gph = 15gpm which looks about right.  Given that and the pump inlet height of no more than 1 meter, translates to less than 10W mechanical power. It's more of the same old story:  Bad assumptions about input versus output lead to unsupportable claims of free energy.  For Joe Newman, this has been going on for 30 years.

Do you understand now Fausto?  The Joe Newman video linked to in the October 2012 PESN article is showing about 10 watts of mechanical work being done to pump water (I think you linked to the same video).  You now understand that a bunch of alkaline AA batteries in series can easily do this.


Another Mark E. quote:

Quote
the mechanical power required to lift the claimed 900
gph of water 1 meter is less than 10W.  That's within the reach of 10 AA cells. 
It is a light load for the 80 9V 522 alkaline cells shown in the video.  If you think that pumping that modest quantity of water by that small height requires 300hp, then you have very funny ideas about power.  The machine's mass is irrelevant.

I note also that TK showed some calculations showing that it was feasible for the water pumping to get done.  So what Joe Newman is showing is nothing of any significance.  What you have to do when you look at video clips like this is is do the calculations and find out for yourself.  Don't believe me and especially don't believe Joe Newman, check things out for yourself.

TK:

Yes indeed, after I made that posting I was thinking that Joe probably spins up his big honking rotors by hand before he powers them with the AA batteries.  So I salute you in your Brownie Point wisdom.  lol

Once the big honking rotor is turning it acts like a mechanical low-pass filter and the AA batteries can happily run the pump without worrying about the varying mechanical resistance of the actual pump itself.  The rotational inertia of the rotor smooths things out.

Fausto:

Another interesting quote from the PESN article, this time from Asterix:

Quote
Newman, on his website (joseph newman dot com) claims that it is possible to do work using voltage only with no current.  This is pure babbling.   It's entirely possible to have a charge (voltage) with no current flow--we know it as static electricity.  But the moment that the charge is dissipated, a current flows--and work is performed.  Potential energy changes to kinetic energy.  No laws of physics broken (sorry, Sterling).  P=IE--as easy as pie.

Sorry again, Sterling, but the same potential-to-kinetic energy relationship holds regardless of the force involved:  gravitational, intertial, electrostatic or magnetic.   Your #1 and the "looped"  MG sets on your list must follow the rule; it's the way our universe is constructed.

So that's where you are getting your statement about "voltage only with no current" or "voltage only with so little current it's not worth mentioning."

I hope that you realize now that what Joe says is a lie.  Power is voltage times current and there is no such thing as a Newman motor that runs on voltage only.

MileHigh


     

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2012, 01:00:46 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2012, 01:41:13 AM »
Yes,
Newman is mostly exaggerating the effects,

BUT MileHigh is forgetting how long he is running the 10 Watts pump power !

Newman achives to run it at least  3 to 10 times longer than a normal 10 Watts Direct Current draw would
take to discharge his batteries !

So Newman can pull much more energy out of the batteries !

Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2012, 03:36:36 AM »
Gentlemans,


please, let's be more honest with each other.


Some of you are picking the arguments and ignoring others. Others are speculating in how Newman's machine work without knowing how he built really and looking thing at the windows views of current science and IGNORING everything else that he is saying.


I presented a book for review where this is explained (magnetic laws) in detail. No one mention anything against the book or in favor, Lots of articles flying around but no real conversation, just I am right and you are wrong.


Please, this site is looked by a lot of eyes in the world including my family and probably some of yours. We are in the pursue of understanding, so understanding let us do.


Converting the energy stored in those batteries of Mr Newman's video is ludicrous  really, he did not even measure the batteries again to show how much was used.  You cannot know how much power (or energy ) he used in that video, you only speculated that the energy stored in those batteries to the MAXIMUM and calculated how he potentially could have done,


BUT,


you don't know that either, do you?


And how you think he build that motor, like conventional motor ? Really?


So far I am not impressed with our ability to calculate things and show what is possible, I am here to find the impossible, get it?


Either teach correctly, and correctly really, not just half way, please.


I have much more respect for those that SHOW work and not only talk.


@TinselKoala[/color],


I am building up more respect for you every day. I see how you are teaching Lawrence how to professionally measure things and prepare himself for his next challenge. I am learning with him too. Thank you. Please, keep that attitude of professionalism you have been showing. It is very good for us all here.


@Lawrence,


Keep learning and bringing your arguments and measurements. It is very plausible that you are correct, data will eventually show US that or not. I admire your diligence all this years and persistent approach to many here.



Fausto.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 04:07:43 AM by plengo »

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2012, 03:36:36 AM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2012, 03:47:49 AM »
Attached is the oscilloscope analysis file for the basic JT.


The components are from the Lead-Out Energy Research Kit from BSI.
2n2222, 1 inch toroid with 28 turns, 1 K ohm resistor, AA battery. 1 white 3V Led, two 1 ohm resistors.


DC coupling was used for both Ch1 and Ch2.  Ch1 measures the voltage.  Ch2 measures the voltage across a one ohm resistor (thus representing current.)  11250 sampling points were taken.  The auto function was used.  The Input and Output were done separately with the same oscilloscope.  The AA battery was connected all the time.


The details are in the file.  The voltage, current and power waveforms for both Input and Output are available.  The COP as calculated from the average Output Power over average Input Power is 0.68.


Since the COP is less than 1, there is no surprise.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #83 on: November 27, 2012, 04:15:16 AM »
This file is the oscilloscope analysis file for the JT with a 2.3V 10F capacitor.


The readings were taken with both the AA battery and capacitor connected.  The capacitor was connected in parallel with the AA Battery.


The COP was 0.64.  No surprise.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2012, 04:19:19 AM »
This is the oscilloscope analysis file for the JT with the 2.3V 10F capacitor.


The readings were taken immediately after the AA battery was disconnected.


The COP increased to 0.73.  No surprise.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2012, 04:19:19 AM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #85 on: November 27, 2012, 04:39:04 AM »
This is the interesting case.


The AA battery was disconnected.  The 2.3V 10F capacitor was left connected.  The Output Voltage Frequency increased from 1.4 KHz to 5 KHz.


The readings (Input5 and Output5) were then taken.


Bingo!  The COP was -6.4!!!


Let the replication, the interpretation and the application begin.  Thank you to the Almighty.




Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #86 on: November 27, 2012, 05:01:55 AM »
@Plengo: thank you for your nice comment. Sometimes I feel like I'm shooting in the dark. We shall see what becomes of my efforts and if I can really help or am just wasting everyone's time.

@LTseung: Thanks for providing the spreadsheet files. I'll be taking a look at them over the next day or two. Meanwhile, could you please post the _exact_ schematic used for the tests, and please be sure to indicate exactly where the scope probes, power supplies and external meters are attached. I need this information to be able to evaluate the data, and to reproduce the experimental trials if necessary.



Meanwhile, for your amusement, here's a motor that _does_ run on lots and lots of voltage and not much current at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqf3bUL4YqE


Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #87 on: November 27, 2012, 05:29:40 AM »
I have a question for those that know anything about Mr. Newman. What is the inductance of the coil he is using in his coil on that 2000 pound motor? Speculation of our part, yes, but I can speculate based on the previous motors he has shown all his life and are very well documented in how to build one.


I would think the induction would be enormous.   I don't think 270 volts will pass even 5 mili-amps of current. Now, how that motor with that little current can even run?


I really want to see how smart the engineers here are, specially Mr. Mile HIgh.

Fausto.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #88 on: November 27, 2012, 05:32:44 AM »
Fausto:

We can all express our opinions.  This is of fundamental importance and this is something that we all have to deal with in our own way.  When I tell you that the setup that Joe Newman demonstrated is of no significance I am expressing my true opinion in all sincerity.  You have to "go with the flow" and sometimes that means agreeing to disagree.

A Newman motor is a big coil with a rotating magnet inside the coil.  I think that sometimes he plays with the contacts on the commutator to "chop" the energizing of the coil as the rotor turns.  I don't see anything special.

Then, take a look at Joe Newman himself.  He has been at this for 30 years and after all that time he still doesn't present any measurements when he does a demo.  Why can't he put a current sensing resistor in series with the coil to show the current and also show the voltage across the coil with two channels of a scope.

You ask me to read a 1911 book and I might not listen to you and I might ask you to look at the current waveform for a coil to look at the R/L time constant and you might not listen to me.  We can both get frustrated but we can just move on.  Try not to get too emotional about this stuff!

Live and let live!

MileHigh


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2012, 06:13:36 AM »
Then I won't jump in until MH has had a chance to answer.


Meanwhile, here's a quick video showing how Lawrence -- or anyone else who cares to -- can determine the actual resonant frequencies of his JT coils, out of circuit. In the circuit the resonant frequency will change depending on the load the coil sees. This method can also be used in-circuit by disconnecting the circuit's input to the coil and using the FG instead, and monitoring the output voltage with the output side of the circuit connected, I think. Or if the circuit's own oscillator can be swept in frequency, that is the very best way to do it: sweep frequencies until the output voltage peaks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZN5QJZClY

« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 09:55:38 AM by TinselKoala »

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2012, 06:13:36 AM »

 

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