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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 355851 times)

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2012, 11:53:29 PM »


@MH if the JT circuit isn't in "resonance".... what determines the oscillation frequency?

How are we defining resonance here, anyway?

Exactly!

Bill

PS  I will try the cold soak experiment soon.  Thanks.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2012, 11:53:29 PM »

Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2012, 12:39:24 AM »
Thanks for the answer. No emotional here just saying what I think. It does frustrates me to see an individual as intelligent as you are and not see it. But, hey family frustrates me too!


Fausto:

Here is where you have to analyze things without any emotion.  First of all, the 2000 pounds is not doing any work at all.  The 2000 pounds is the dead weight of the rotor of Joe's big motor (or it is the weight of the entire motor assembly, I can't remember.)


It is doing work off course, did you see it running the water pump? That is work, now I would agree that once the wheel is spinning to the maximum for the given power, yes, from now on it would be easy to maintain the rotation but still there is a price because friction and off course the work been done by moving gallons of water from one point to another. Freely spinning wheel without horrible friction, sure no work, which is NOT the case in the video.


What do you mean the motor is not running on current?  How can you say that after all these years?  You know electrical power is voltage times current.  There is no such thing as a motor running on voltage only and there is no such thing as a motor running on current only.  Those are nonsensical concepts.


Sure, you could say it is non-nonsensical, just like when one uses the "negligible" statement into the equation. What I meant is just that, those 500 or 170 batteries (could be 1000) in series can maximum give a few mili-amps for all that time running, NOT AMPS and AMPs like a motor of equivalent size would need. Oh boy, he showed the graph right in the beginning or the video to show exactly that. Did you see the video?


So the motor is using current, but very little compared to the size and work done. The difference in voltage and current is so big and disproportional to the whole apparatus that one can safely say "no current to run this gigantic beast motor".


The "power of induction" is not doing any work and there is no power associated with induction.  Inductance can only store and release energy provided by an external power source.

So, we know that Joe is using what?  I think it's about 170 batteries in series?

I challenge you Fausto to explain how what Joe Newman demos is perfectly explainable with his 2000 pound rotor and the 170 AA batteries.   You are claiming that is overunity and I am challenging you to explain how it is in fact under unity.
[size=78%]
[/size]
MileHigh


I agree, induction itself and the inductor nothing special really. But still heats the wire twice!!!


Challenge, oh boy, no need, I have my WORK at WORK and AT THE LAB every night already to challenge me, I don't need your understanding criticism. I like when you explain things without being negative concerning peoples beliefs. It does not matter if the belief we have is GOD, Jesus, the Devil or Free Energy. So respect on the answers and statements is essential.


Reading 1911 Proteus Charles Steinmetz on Elementary Lectures on Electric Discharges, Waves and Impulses, and Other Transients (1911)[/size] - pdf[/size](another version)[/size] http://archive.org/details/elementarylectu00steigoog is a good start concerning what is missing in your understanding of the fundamental forces. Energy is not the fundamental force.


Besides being obvious that the amount of magnetic flux is not proportionally equivalent to the amount input power. There are many other factors at play here so looking at a coil just like induction theory is a grave mistake that leads you to only see one side of coin.

Fausto.






Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2012, 02:21:33 AM »
Fausto:

I don't have time for a complete reply but here is the answer.   A 1.5-volt alkaline AA battery can easily output one ampere of current.  I am wondering if you are thinking that a bunch of them in series lowers the current output capabilities of the AA batteries.  You seem to be implying that.  If you are that's not the case.

So, a single AA battery at 1.5 volts and one amp can output 1.5 watts.  170 of them in series can output 255 watts (255 volts at one amp.)

So you have a giant "Newman" pulse motor with a large coil.  The larger the coil the more voltage you need to get the current flowing in a reasonable amount of time.

So, you look at Joe Newman's water flow rate and the vertical height his pump is displacing the water.  Do the calculations and you will find that if you power an electrical motor with 250 watts of electrical power that powers a water pump it should be able to easily displace the water that Joe Newman is demonstrating.

Honestly, I think that you should have been able to see this.  The conclusion is that Joe Newman is demonstrating nothing special at all.  It's all just a fake demo in an attempt to impress people and get people to "invest" or "donate" to his "Newman motor" cause.

The "2000 pounds" means absolutely nothing.  Yes it takes some battery energy to get it spinning but after that it makes no difference and does not affect anything.

MileHigh

Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2012, 03:17:37 AM »
Fausto:

I don't have time for a complete reply but here is the answer.   A 1.5-volt alkaline AA battery can easily output one ampere of current.  I am wondering if you are thinking that a bunch of them in series lowers the current output capabilities of the AA batteries.  You seem to be implying that.  If you are that's not the case.

So, a single AA battery at 1.5 volts and one amp can output 1.5 watts.  170 of them in series can output 255 watts (255 volts at one amp.)

So you have a giant "Newman" pulse motor with a large coil.  The larger the coil the more voltage you need to get the current flowing in a reasonable amount of time.

So, you look at Joe Newman's water flow rate and the vertical height his pump is displacing the water.  Do the calculations and you will find that if you power an electrical motor with 250 watts of electrical power that powers a water pump it should be able to easily displace the water that Joe Newman is demonstrating.

Honestly, I think that you should have been able to see this.  The conclusion is that Joe Newman is demonstrating nothing special at all.  It's all just a fake demo in an attempt to impress people and get people to "invest" or "donate" to his "Newman motor" cause.

The "2000 pounds" means absolutely nothing.  Yes it takes some battery energy to get it spinning but after that it makes no difference and does not affect anything.

MileHigh


I am speechless for you. If you really believe that, go ahead. You are making my life much easier to work with overunity ideas and devices even more than before. Overunity is EASY to believe compared to YOUR explanation of how Newman's motor (that freaking gigantic motor) can even start spinning with 255 watts of power second. Much less pump water.


Fausto.


Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2012, 03:37:00 AM »
@TinselKoala


This thread is growing too fast for me to keep up.


I shall answer one point at a time.  The point here is the comparison of power and energy.


You are perfectly correct that those two may be very different .  Energy is the integration of power over a certain period of time.  The minimum time interval should be one complete wave.  In the examples I posted, there were at least 4 complete Output Voltage waves.  Thus the average power over such intervals should be very close to the actual energy comparison.


I think that we are getting closer and closer to the truth now.  I do not mind your searching questions as they are preparing me for the inevitable "examination" at places such as Tsinghua University.


Sorry about putting your name in the same sentence as the Almighty.  I never thought that you two were close. It will not happen again. ::)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2012, 03:37:00 AM »
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Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2012, 04:49:12 AM »
Fausto:

You are not correct here.  So we know any real-world inductor is made of wire and has resistance.  So what we can easily do is model the real-world inductor as an ideal inductor with zero resistance in the wire in series with a small resistor.

So what happens when we energize this inductor?   Let's say it takes 5 seconds to energize the inductor.  So after 5 seconds some of the supplied battery energy was used to create the magnetic field to energize the ideal inductor.  At the same time during the 5 seconds some of the battery energy was burned off in the resistor.

After five seconds the only thing that is happening is that battery power is being burned off in the resistor.  Also after five seconds there is energy stored in the inductor.  That energy came from the battery.  Important:  Note that this energy stored in the inductor has not gone anywhere else, i.e.; it has not passed through a resistor.

Then after some time the inductor discharges its stored energy.  This stored energy will discharge through the resistance of the inductor itself, and some sort of a load resistance.   Therefore this energy is only discharged ONCE, not twice.

Here is the energy path:  [energy in battery] -> [energy stored in inductor] -> [energy dissipated in inductor internal resistance and load resistance]

There is no 'magic' in the inductor that allows the same energy to get used twice.

MileHigh


Sorry you are wrong.


The correct path is:


 [energy in battery] -> [energy dissipated in resistance of inductor] --> [energy stored in inductor] -> [energy dissipated in inductor internal resistance] -> [LOAD]


You missed the second resistance when discharging SINCE the current path is exactly the same.

Fausto.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2012, 04:56:06 AM »
Fausto:

I will leave the final challenge for you if you want to double-check the numbers.  255 watts is 1/3 horsepower.  So the question is can a 1/3 horsepower DC motor power a pump and move the same amount of water per second up the same height differential that Joe Newman is demonstrating.   The answer is yes.  I have seen the numbers crunched on PESN, Joe Newman's demo means nothing.  He is simply not demonstrating anything remarkable.  If you don't believe me, then check it for yourself.

I am under the impression that you were not aware that 170 AA batteries in series could generate 1/3 horsepower.  Am I correct in my assumption?  Joe Newman knows that many people will not be aware of this, and that is the smoke and mirrors game he is playing.

MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2012, 04:56:06 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2012, 05:03:46 AM »
Fausto:

Quote
The correct path is:


 [energy in battery] -> [energy dissipated in resistance of inductor] --> [energy stored in inductor] -> [energy dissipated in inductor internal resistance] -> [LOAD]


You missed the second resistance when discharging SINCE the current path is exactly the same.

If you believe that somehow an inductor is somehow generating energy from "somewhere" then why don't you do set up a simple experiment where you can clearly demonstrate and measure some "extra" energy from a charging and discharging inductor.

Here is a thought experiment:  If it's so easy then why isn't science and engineering exploiting this property of inductors right now?  They aren't doing it because it's not true.  There is a multi-billion dollar magnetics industry and an industry worth hundreds of millions of dollars for buck power converters, boost power converters, and buck-boost power converters.  It employs thousands of engineers that design these pulsing inductor circuits every day.  If what you say is true how come they aren't exploiting this "magical" property of pulsing coils?

MileHigh

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2012, 05:55:03 AM »
I am at the Office and can use the Digital DC Power Supply.  Unfortunately, the 2n2222 JT is too powerful.  A zero amp reading can still keep the LED on.  See attached picture.



So I still need to switch from Output connection to Input connection.  Cannot guarantee the exact instant for Input and Output Power comparison.



Need to rely on the top Universities with their more powerful oscilloscopes.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2012, 07:45:25 AM »
Lawrence: thank you for posting the sample spreadsheet file. Am I correct that the file you posted only contained 10 sets of data points out of the 11250 sample total record length? Kind of stingy, isn't it, to not give me the whole 11250 points?

Even a casual inspection of those twenty data points (ten from each channel) shows that I am right, though: your signal is undersampled, and your scope is giving you discrete values that are probably interpolated. Do you really think that the only voltage levels of your signals during the 10-sample interval at 400 nanoseconds per sample are changing by the intervals your scope is indicating? Look at the values:
 
Source
CH1
CH2
Second
Volt
Volt
-0.0022500002
0.08
-0.01
-0.0022496002
0.16
-0.008
-0.0022492002
0.16
-0.012
-0.0022488002
0.16
-0.01
-0.0022484002
0.16
-0.008
-0.0022480002
0.16
-0.01
-0.0022476002
0.08
-0.01
-0.0022472002
0.16
-0.008
-0.0022468002
0.08
-0.01
-0.0022464002
0.08
-0.01



Gahh.... the table formatting is all screwed up. It looked fine in the text entry window.

Sorry.... it is just as I have said.  You are looking at your data thru a picket fence.
Secondly, I have told you that the circuit cannot be evaluated when it is connected to a line-connected piece of equipment, MOST DEFINITELY not while it is connected to your power supply by even a single wire. You have seen why.

Third: You absolutely CANNOT use the numbers on the meters of your power supply for ANYTHING, except a rough guide to setting up the supply! I am flabbergasted that you even attempt to use these numbers as real data to make your extravagant claims.

I've told you in a previous post where and how the input power must be measured. No readings from your power supply meters were even mentioned by me!

I am happy to give you advice and to help you to perform correct power and energy calculations. Please take my advice to heart, run it by your consultants and correspondents, ignore it if you must, but please have good reasons for ignoring it if you do so.

Let's review:

First, Your output data is undersampled and likely interpolated. This may or may not be a fatal flaw.... my intuition at this point is that the bigger problem is with your input data.
Second, you must be completely isolated from any line-connected equipment during evaluation and data collection. This may be an easy or a difficult problem to solve, depending on your scope's isolation. Please answer the questions I asked about your scope's isolation.
Third, you absolutely CANNOT and must not use the numbers on your power supply meters as data! These are rough guides to setting your knobs and must be verified during use by inline ammeters and voltmeters of higher precision and accuracy.... and the power supply must be completely disconnected _from this circuit_ anyway during evaluations.

And finally..... I would like to see a _full_ data set _and_ the calculations your spreadsheet is performing on them. Either the .xls file you sent got truncated somehow or it only contains 10 sets of samples and no calculations.

Yes, four complete cycles of the waveform is sufficient to do the calculations, but you should include 6 cycles in the data so that the starting and ending points of the measurement interval are precisely known. In other words, don't "crop" your data window by trying to include just the 4 periods exactly, include a little extra so that the "edges" can be precisely cropped for the calculations.

(I see no indication in the spreadsheet parameters file of the channel coupling settings. Am I missing it? It is good that your scope records the channel offset, but I can't tell if the scope includes the offset in its reported values or not. )

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2012, 07:45:25 AM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2012, 08:10:54 AM »
Lawrence: thank you for posting the sample spreadsheet file. Am I correct that the file you posted only contained 10 sets of data points out of the 11250 sample total record length? Kind of stingy, isn't it, to not give me the whole 11250 points?

Please use the nov22a.xlsx file in
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg26471#msg26471


That file is too big for this forum.  You need to unzip it.




The sample file you mentioned with 10 sample points contains the parameter save values.  No analysis was done.


Examine case 4 in nov 22a.xlxs in particular.




That particular case has been reproduced.  We shall do more modifications around it.   My contacts at Tsinghua University suggested that I bring the oscilloscope-test-ready board to them.  They believe any additional measurement from the cheap Atten Oscilloscope may be a waste of time.  They have well qualified persons operating their top-of-line oscilloscopes.  Those results will be used to justify the claims.




I shall take that suggestion.  I do not have a way to access the expensive oscilloscopes.  Let Tsinghua University shine.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #71 on: November 26, 2012, 08:16:35 AM »
@MH: re the Joe Newman  motor:

you said,
Quote
The "2000 pounds" means absolutely nothing.  Yes it takes some battery energy to get it spinning but after that it makes no difference and does not affect anything.
Does he really hook up the battery stack with the rotor at a standstill, and let the whole thing accelerate to running speed on the power from the battery stack alone?
Every Newman demo I've seen he has to give the wheel a big spin to get it started.
 ;)

So we have a large heavy flywheel on good bearings, if somewhat roughly constructed. It's given a good spin initially and then it's supplied with, say, 200 Watts of power from the battery stack. Or even much less: all the batterypack has to do is to replace the friction losses, it doesn't have to accelerate the rotor, thanks to Joe.
Now you want to pump some water. You have a 2000 pound flywheel turning at some rpm maintaining a constant speed because it's being supplied with power from the batteries. Does the flywheel slow down when you start pumping? Could you detect, say, a 10 percent loss in RPM by eye and ear over the few minutes of water pumping? How much stored energy would that represent?
In the "zed is ded thred" I wound up looking up some water pump and head parameters. There are pump calculators that will tell you how much mechanical power in Watts is required to pump a certain flow rate to a certain head height. It's interesting to run the numbers. 20 kW, as I recall, is just about the same as a flow of 3500 gallons per minute to a head height of 10 meters, neglecting pump losses. Can that be right? That means that 200 W could pump 35 gpm to 30 feet of head....
Actually I see that is 'ballpark' correct: even assuming a 60 percent efficient pump you can pump 25 gpm to 30 feet of head on 240 Watts of mechanical power.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pumps-power-d_505.html

So if your flywheel is running at equilibrium speed at 240 Watts input from the battery stack, and you then put a 240 watt mechanical load on the shaft, the rotor will then begin to slow down at its unpowered speed. Right? And a 2000 pound rotor will take a while to slow perceptibly even when its input power is taken away and used somewhere else.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2012, 08:26:42 AM »
@Lawrence: is it possible for me to download the user's manual and technical information for your Atten oscilloscope?

The reason the universities are interested in your system enough to talk to you is because of your nice personality and your self-assurance. They are politely giving you the full opportunity to demonstrate your claims... or to fall on your face in public. In the event you are incorrect in your claims of OU, due to your equipment and analysis techniques and your misapprehensions, would you not like to find out this fact before you have sent out 30 boards for evaluation, met face-to-face with a room full of grad students, and spent money on travel and supplies? So I recommend strongly that you delay your plans a bit, until you can integrate your new-found knowledge completely into your thinking. You might even change your conclusions, if your data upon which they are based is correctly gathered and analyzed.

Quote
Those results will be used to justify the claims.
That is not a scientific attitude.
"Those results" may very well indicate that your claims are not justifiable. But you have already decided that they are, therefore you will conclude that the evaluations are incorrect somehow and failed to see what you clearly know is true.

ETA: Your "slide5.jpg" scopeshot is uninterpretable garbage. You are seeing "aliasing" artefacts due to the noisy signal and your scope's pixellated low-res display. The parameters include garbage in their values and can't be trusted. Does the scope compute the params based on the windowed display, or can you select the area for computation with cursors?
For clarity please remember to show only 2, 3, 4, or 5 complete cycles _unless_ you are doing frequency computations based on large numbers of cycles. Also please remember to put the channel zero reference line (offset) directly on a horizontal graticule line unless there is some good reason not to. Both your channels are DC coupled as is proper, but for some reason you have chosen to put the "T" for the trigger voltage value, right on a horizontal graticule line, rather than putting the channel baseline (the "2" with the little horizontal arrow indicating the zero reference) there.

ETA2: You speak English very well. May I ask, is it your first language, or do you speak Cantonese or Mandarin "at home"?  I wish I could learn a Chinese language; I am fascinated by the cultures and someday I hope to visit what we call "the Orient".

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2012, 08:45:57 AM »
@Lawrence: is it possible for me to download the user's manual and technical information for your Atten oscilloscope?


*** http://www.atten.eu/media/catalog/product/pdf/User%20Manual%20ATTEN%20DSO.pdf

The reason the universities are interested in your system enough to talk to you is because of your nice personality and your self-assurance. They are politely giving you the full opportunity to demonstrate your claims... or to fall on your face in public. In the event you are incorrect in your claims of OU, due to your equipment and analysis techniques and your misapprehensions, would you not like to find out this fact before you have sent out 30 boards for evaluation, met face-to-face with a room full of grad students, and spent money on travel and supplies? So I recommend strongly that you delay your plans a bit, until you can integrate your new-found knowledge completely into your thinking. You might even change your conclusions, if your data upon which they are based is correctly gathered and analyzed.
That is not a scientific attitude.
"Those results" may very well indicate that your claims are not justifiable. But you have already decided that they are, therefore you will conclude that the evaluations are incorrect somehow and failed to see what you clearly know is true.


I know the professors at Tsinghua personally.  I gave lectures and got great receptions.  At that time, Mr. Lee Cheung Kin and I presented the Leading-out of gravitational energy.  Mr. Wang Shen He also presented his magnet only device.  We helped to explain one of their devices that "magnified Input 30 times" with the lead-out energy theory.  [size=78%]We went into political problems afterwards.[/size]




This time, the political problems have been removed.  The Chinese Academics have a different mentality from their Western counter-parts.  They love to check-out theories that "humble the Westerners".  If it were wrong, they just treat it as listening to another theory.  If right...... ??? ??


Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2012, 09:32:08 AM »
Use of the twin timer in the "overunity" range to cut electricity bills.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2012, 09:32:08 AM »

 

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