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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 355850 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2012, 10:43:56 AM »
So that's pretty much that, then. OK, fine.


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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2012, 10:43:56 AM »

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2012, 01:58:16 PM »
Here is my version of the Ghost light.
 
The Ghost Light LED can be on forever?  At least 7 days and lights without dimming.


Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2012, 02:25:45 PM »
For tuning purposes, one can focus on Minute3.jpg.
 
The Output Voltage Waveform has more peaks.  That potentially produces more power peaks.  The percentage drop in amplitude is less than that of the Input.  This is a good candidate for COP > 1.
 
Another angle is to look at the frequency.  Can we use a low value of DC power supply to keep the circuit at that frequency?  Can we build a circuit to maintain that frequency???  It is like keeping the same frequency for a radio station.  Get there and hold it there.
 
Once the top Universities see the possibilities and the results from their top-of-the-line oscilloscopes, They will take Lead-out Energy technology to the next level.  The Top Chinese Universities are looking for projects that will let them excel.  They are good candidates to become Wine Servers.
 
God Bless.
 

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2012, 02:55:47 PM »
So that's pretty much that, then. OK, fine.
Sample saved file with parameter save ON.


Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2012, 05:54:10 PM »



First, and perhaps most importantly, Power is NOT energy. Power is not necessarily "conserved" because you can take lots of small chunks of power and concentrate them into a bigger chunk. ENERGY is conserved.
...


Second..... if you load samples from your DSO into your spreadsheet and have the spreadsheet integrate the values making up the instantaneous power curve, you need to make sure you aren't "looking at your data thru a picket fence".  That is, all DSOs are _sampling_ instruments, they do not read continuous values from your signal. They sample it at discrete intervals. Digital Sampling Oscilloscope.  Many DSOs... high end ones....have very large sample rates like 1 Gs/sec. Clearly..... if you are sampling a waveform at 1 Gs/sec..... you are going to have a +lot+ of samples per cycle. A lot of data for a spreadsheet CSV file. On the other hand if your scope is a basic one, it probably has a much slower actual sample rate, and may even be interpolating between sample intervals rather than giving you actual measurements.
This means that using a spreadsheet to integrate a complex signal with fast risetimes, based on data dumps from a low-end digital scope is a process that is.... er.... um...... "fraught" as someone once said. Fraught with difficulty and opportunities for error, that is.
It is better, in general, to use an integrating power meter like the Clarke-Hess power analyzers, or in especially problematic cases, even bolometric power analyzers, or to beg or borrow a high-end scope with huge sample rates and built in integration math, and have the scope perform the necessary integrations on-board.
That is very insightful of you. I know a little bit about digital sampling and how music software works and you are absolutely right. Your explanation of the artifacts of digital sampling concerning the reality of measuring power-in/power-out is very helpful.
Now I understand the so many years of discussion around this issue. One would have to have an infinite amount of sampling to allow instantaneous measurement of voltagexcurrent In and Out to measure correctly.

I admire your patient and politeness with our friend Itseung in his wonderful work when explaining the issues of the data.

How that device you mentioned (Clarke-Hess) works internaly if you don't mind asking. If they are not sampling, how are they calculating the true power?

Many thanks,

Fausto.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2012, 05:54:10 PM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2012, 10:27:53 PM »
Much Thanks to TinselKoala
 
TinselKoala pointed me to the correct use of Instantaneous Voltage on the Oscilloscope - Use DC Coupling.  I used this technique to greatly improve the resonance tuning process.
 
At BSI, we used to have a demonstration to show how to cut electricity bills.  The circuit turns 30 LEDs ON for 15 seconds and OFF for 2 minutes and repeats.  The values selected were more or less random with the human eye judging the brightness.
 
With the new tuning technique, we can detect the range that the circuit is in overunity mode.  It turned out that the frequency range from about 3 KHz to 24 KHz fits such description.  If we want the circuit to remain in this range and still show acceptable brightness, the best time is 3 Seconds ON and 10 minutes OFF.  We can use the oscilloscope instead of the human eye.
 
Resonance tuning and obtaining overunity is now a piece of cake.  Thanks to the Almighty and TinselKoala.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2012, 10:48:32 PM »
Lawrence: the positive lead of your power supply is connected. Disconnect that and your "forever light" will fade normally just as mine does. Maybe slower, I haven't spent any time optimising my circuit variant... I just built it last night !! But I've been able to discover a few things and explain them to myself to my _preliminary_ satisfaction.

As I have emphasized in my recent videos, you _cannot_ have any  line connected device at all connected to this circuit or its variants or you will fool yourself. I mean by the ground lead, the positive lead or any lead at all.

Even a scope probe or reference will screw up your circuit _unless_ the scope is fully isolated. I don't know if this is the case for your scope. Are the probe reference leads (cable shields, outer conductors) connected together inside the scope, and is the internal chassis grounded to the mains ground back thru the line cord? Does it use a 2-prong "wallwart" style power supply, or is the power supply internal?


And please don't mention me and the Almighty in the same breath. He and I don't get along too well. I don't believe in him..... and I don't think he believes in me, either.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2012, 10:48:32 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2012, 10:48:59 PM »
Fausto:

Quote
Let go slow: you said: energy goes from the battery to the inductor. Good. Inductor discharges that stored energy back to us (or another system, whatever). Good, all the same, what goes in, goes out.


Is that correct? Good, now, think again, battery give 10 watts of power in a second, so 10 joules. Great. Inductor discharges and gives back (minus losses) 10 joules or less back.


Now, this process heats up the resistive wire TWICE, not once like a regular resistor. Can you explain that? How come a resistor for the same 10 joules of input power ONLY heat once ? in others words a regular resistor will give you only an equivalent amount of 10 joules of heat, while the SAME resistance in a inductor will give you more than that in heat.


I would love to hear how you going to explain that out!

You are not correct here.  So we know any real-world inductor is made of wire and has resistance.  So what we can easily do is model the real-world inductor as an ideal inductor with zero resistance in the wire in series with a small resistor.

So what happens when we energize this inductor?   Let's say it takes 5 seconds to energize the inductor.  So after 5 seconds some of the supplied battery energy was used to create the magnetic field to energize the ideal inductor.  At the same time during the 5 seconds some of the battery energy was burned off in the resistor.

After five seconds the only thing that is happening is that battery power is being burned off in the resistor.  Also after five seconds there is energy stored in the inductor.  That energy came from the battery.  Important:  Note that this energy stored in the inductor has not gone anywhere else, i.e.; it has not passed through a resistor.

Then after some time the inductor discharges its stored energy.  This stored energy will discharge through the resistance of the inductor itself, and some sort of a load resistance.   Therefore this energy is only discharged ONCE, not twice.

Here is the energy path:  [energy in battery] -> [energy stored in inductor] -> [energy dissipated in inductor internal resistance and load resistance]

There is no 'magic' in the inductor that allows the same energy to get used twice.

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2012, 10:55:34 PM »
@Lawrence: I take it that you are charging the cap for the short interval , then running on the stored energy for the longer interval. Here's a tip: the capacitor will charge up to very near the battery or supply voltage quickly. Once it gets to that voltage (actually it approaches it asymptotically) you can't put any more charge on the cap!! So leaving it connected to the power supply beyond that point is just wasting power from the supply. You should be able to rig a system that shuts off charging just at the time the cap reaches the PS voltage setting and no longer; this will improve (lower) your input power figure, I think. You could use a simple voltage comparator made from , eg, a 741 op amp, comparing the voltage from the supply, dropped by a quarter of a volt or so by a resistor divider network, to the voltage on the cap. When the comparator flips, have it trigger another switching stage to cut off the cap from the power supply.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2012, 11:06:11 PM »
Fausto:

Quote
I want to see how any one can explain this to not be overunity. 2000 pounds doing work, pumping water is NOT fake and it is not running on current, since ALL the batteries are in series.


If this is not the power of induction at work, I don't know what is power than.

Here is where you have to analyze things without any emotion.  First of all, the 2000 pounds is not doing any work at all.  The 2000 pounds is the dead weight of the rotor of Joe's big motor (or it is the weight of the entire motor assembly, I can't remember.)

What do you mean the motor is not running on current?  How can you say that after all these years?  You know electrical power is voltage times current.  There is no such thing as a motor running on voltage only and there is no such thing as a motor running on current only.  Those are nonsensical concepts.

The "power of induction" is not doing any work and there is no power associated with induction.  Inductance can only store and release energy provided by an external power source.

So, we know that Joe is using what?  I think it's about 170 batteries in series?

I challenge you Fausto to explain how what Joe Newman demos is perfectly explainable with his 2000 pound rotor and the 170 AA batteries.   You are claiming that is overunity and I am challenging you to explain how it is in fact under unity.

MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2012, 11:06:11 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2012, 11:13:28 PM »
Bill:

I made the effort to explain to you what's under the hood of your JT.  No resonance at play, it's just the tuning of the oscillator and it's all about the size of the inductance and how much current is flowing though it when the JT transistor switches off.

Do you have any comments?

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2012, 11:17:24 PM »
@Plengo... thanks for the comments, I really appreciate the positive feedback.
The CH 2330 is a sampling instrument but uses a unique methodology at high resolution (16 bits).

From their website:
Quote
UNIQUE SAMPLING APPROACH / ISOLATED INPUTS
 The Voltage and Current inputs of the Model 2330 watt meter are simultaneously sampled (with 16 bit resolution), converted to digital form, and transmitted via optical links to the main chassis. This allows both the Current and Voltage inputs to be completely isolated from each other and from the main chassis. The asynchronous sampling frequency is controlled by the system microprocessor in such a fashion that neither it nor any of its harmonics can come close to the measured input frequency or any of its harmonics. This precaution prevents "beats" with their accompanying jitter in the displayed values.
http://www.clarke-hess.com/2330.html

The instrument has a practical limit of 600 kHz for the basic signal IIRC; it will still be accurate on smooth signals at higher frequencies. Signals with fast risetime spikes will have a lot of power (relatively) in high-frequency harmonics, and so these are best measured with calorimetric or bolometric instruments. But the JTs we are using here, with frequencies in the tens of kHz and minimum risetimes of tens or hundreds of nanoseconds _seem_ spiky .... but that's a relative measure after all.
I used to be able to find a report of EarthTech's test of a Clarke-Hess 2330 against their extremely accurate calorimetric systems, and the two tracked almost perfectly, but I can't remember what the power specifications or the load were. I can't find that document now, the ETI website has changed drastically since I last visited it. But I would trust the readings from a CH2330 on the JT circuits we are discussing, until demonstrated otherwise. Note that the inputs and outputs are optically isolated and so presumably wouldn't disturb the JT LS GhostLight circuit like normal probes do.

I might be able to borrow a CH2330 from some friends of mine, but I'd have to drive 200 miles to do it, and I'm not up for that right now. Let's see what we can come up with using "TKLabs Seal of Approval" analog power measurement tech, ported to the DSO that Lawrence is using. If we still are getting massive OU after that, then I'll go get the CH and we can see if we can fool it too.
BTW it handled the 1.4 MHz "Tar Baby" just fine, gave numbers that agreed with my analog scope and manual calcs, and also with the actual performance of the DUT.


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2012, 11:34:07 PM »
Bill:

I made the effort to explain to you what's under the hood of your JT.  No resonance at play, it's just the tuning of the oscillator and it's all about the size of the inductance and how much current is flowing though it when the JT transistor switches off.

Do you have any comments?

MileHigh

MH:

First, thanks for the reply.  And second, I do have a comment on your response.  I still tend to disagree that when hitting the "sweet spot" it is not resonance as you say, just the most efficient configuration for that system.  The reason I disagree is that the results do not appear to be linear....this is hard to explain but I will try....In other words...when tuning the circuit using the base vr, as I am sure you know, you add more resistance and the bulbs get brighter and brighter and then, the almost explode in an order of magnitude in brightness....turn a little more and....they dim very sharply.

This has been my experience and, I can't explain it other than claiming that by tuning that circuit, i hit a resonance node of some sort.  I am trying to say that when you hit that spot....if you are careful, you get so much more out than you thought you would.  Just a fuzz more and you are back climbing down the opposite of how you climbed up in a linear fashion.  So, I feel there is something else happening since it is suddenly not linear just at that sweet spot.  If you were to graph it using the accepted info that you know so well....you would see a nice even curve going up and then, a huge jump off of the paper, and then and nice even curve going down.  If resonance is indeed the incorrect term for this event, I guess I would need another term to use in its place.  If all were linear, I would just say that I have tuned the circuit to the best efficiency.  It is that major jump that stands out so well that confuses me.

Thanks for the reply.

Bill

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2012, 11:36:49 PM »
Lawrence, can you give me specific details about how you are measuring and calculating your _input_ power, or rather energy, please?
Are you monitoring the voltage and current used to charge the capacitor, or are you using the values obtained from measuring the voltage waveform on the capacitor and the current waveform in the Current Viewing Resistor while the circuit is running?

Properly, you should be using the former, that is, the energy used to charge the capacitor  between running intervals.

So you charge the cap to the voltage of a power supply or battery. Its energy is then (CVinit2)/2. You then run the JT circuit for your timer interval. Then you  measure the voltage on the cap again, and the energy remaining in the cap will be simply (CVfinal2)/2. The difference between these two values is the energy the cap supplied to the JT circuit proper, and can be compared to the total energy output of the JT (the integral of the output power curve during the time interval). (C in Farads, V in Volts, answers in Joules.)

But is that the whole story? What about the energy used to charge up the cap in the first place? Is it the same as what we measure as the energy "on" the cap that it can supply?  This you measure in the usual manner with an inline CVR in series with the charging power supply, and the voltage on the cap........ before you let the cap run the JT.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2012, 11:47:32 PM »
@Bill.... yes, I think changing the value of the base resistance does change the frequency somewhat, but what you are describing.... which I have seen many times too, usually just before blowing a transistor or a load LED  ;D ..... might be attributed to overdriving the transistor into and beyond full saturation. Back off from this point..(after putting in a new transistor!!) and you get back to your "sweet spot" where you are switching the transistor cleanly and it makes the best waveform for amplification in the transformer coils.
Try this sometime: When your 2n2222 JT is running along nicely, cool off the transistor with the liquid from an inverted spraycan of "air duster" stuff. You know what I mean... if you just barely press the button while the can is upside down you get the cold liquid to come out in dribbles. Dribble this onto the 2n2222 and watch what happens when the transistor gets really cold. It will usually shut off. Don't change the base resistance while it's cold, or you might get a surprise when it warms back up.

@MH: if the JT circuit isn't in "resonance".... what determines the oscillation frequency?

How are we defining resonance here, anyway?

ETA: If the JT coil set is considered to be a transformer, then you could determine its resonant frequency in the usual way: drive one coil with a FG, sweep frequencies, look for voltage peak on the output. Then put the coil into a JT circuit, compare its running freq with the resonant freq you determined by sweeping. Then see what happens when you change one or the other, by adding caps to the JT, varying its base current, or by adding or removing turns from coils, to get them to match...... if you can, or need to. I haven't tried this, so consider it a testable hypothesis at this point. And another evening of playing around with recycled parts, for me, I guess.

 :o

ETA2: I agree with both of you actually, because I think you are both right. The normal operation of the JT is determined as MH says. But it's undeniable that operating at the correct frequency for the transformer's natural resonance is going to give you the greatest voltage rise on the output. And if you go even further and prevent core saturation by using non-saturable air or vacuum,  and use a quarter-wave resonator for your secondary .... you will have invented the Tesla Coil !!
 

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2012, 11:47:32 PM »

 

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