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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 346967 times)

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2012, 03:26:01 AM »
The JT circuit is an oscillator where the primary function of the oscillator is to energize an inductor.  The inductor then discharges and makes one or 50 LEDs light up and the cycle starts all over again.

That's why a JT can light up 50 LEDs in series.  There is no 'magic' there, it's simply the way a discharging inductor works.

.

Wow, this is short sighted. So then how did I light 400 leds three years ago from a really dead battery?  Nothing special?  You have not been following along then.  Also, resonance is a factor in this circuit.  I do not see how you can claim otherwise.

Bill

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2012, 03:26:01 AM »

Offline Neo-X

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2012, 03:56:35 AM »
Wow, this is short sighted. So
then how did I light 400 leds
three years ago from a really
dead battery?  Nothing
special?  You have not been
following along then.  Also, resonance is a factor in this
circuit.  I do not see how you
can claim otherwise.

--End of Quote--

How did you do that? Can u post here your circuits, screenshots and video.?


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2012, 05:22:22 AM »
Wow, this is short sighted. So
then how did I light 400 leds
three years ago from a really
dead battery?  Nothing
special?  You have not been
following along then.  Also, resonance is a factor in this
circuit.  I do not see how you
can claim otherwise.

--End of Quote--

How did you do that? Can u post here your circuits, screenshots and video.?

Check the original Joule Thief topic and my youtube videos (Pirate88179) it is all well documented.  Many others have since surpassed anything I have done with this circuit.  Lasersaber and Gadgetmall to name but two.

Bill

***EDIT***  Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVvdCovYDY
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 07:47:21 AM by Pirate88179 »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2012, 05:32:29 AM »
Plengo:

Quote
I think every time one creates a magnetic field in a coil, in our case a Joule Thief, we have the potential of extracting FREE ENERGY for good. I think you don't agree but I beg you to look into this in more detail.

Well a mechanical analogy for a coil with current flowing through it is a spinning flywheel.  They both store energy and then release it back and exactly the same equations describe their behaviour.  Do you consider a flywheel to be a possible source of free energy?  Many times I have posted a simple test to see if a coil discharges more energy than you put into it but not once has a free energy enthusiast offered to run the test.

Quote
A resistor will not present the same magnetic field as an equivalent resistive inductor, why? both will "burn" electricity energy into heat but the inductor will create this "BEMF" for you everytime. Where is the energy to heat and expand the field from, that the resistor does not have but a coil does?

The answer to your question is that the inductor takes extra get energy to get the current flowing but the resistor doesn't require the extra energy.  The extra energy builds up the magnetic field and when you discharge the inductor across a high resistance you get the BEMF spike and that extra energy is released.  It's exactly the same for a mechanical flywheel.  You have to apply torque to it to get it spinning and then when you apply the breaks to the flywheel there is your mechanical "BEMF spike."

Bill:

Quote
Wow, this is short sighted. So then how did I light 400 leds three years ago from a really dead battery?  Nothing special?  You have not been following along then.  Also, resonance is a factor in this circuit.  I do not see how you can claim otherwise.

I already addressed that issue when I stated that a JT can light up 50 LEDs in series.  Your nearly dead battery could still get current to flow though the coil.  Then the coil discharged through the 400 LEDs.  A coil has a theoretical limit of infinite voltage generation.

What I assume is that no one in the JT group did a simple test.  Look at the voltage waveform from the discharging JT coil when you have a single LED as the load.  Then look at the waveform for 5 LEDs, then 25 LEDs and then for 100 LEDs.  What you would have observed is that the voltage pulse (and associated current pulse) gets shorter and shorter the more LEDs you have in series.  That's telling you that the coil can store a finite amount of energy and the more LEDs you have in series, the faster that finite amount of energy discharges.

Eventually the pulse gets so narrow that the longs string of LEDs starts to get perceptibly dimmer.  When the coil first starts to discharge, no matter how many LEDs you have in series, the initial current flow is always the same.  So that means that you can put a lot of LEDs in series and they will still light up because the initial amount of current flow is enough to light up each LED in series.  The persistence of human vision is such that you can keep on addling LEDs and your eyes and brain are latching onto the initial bright flash of the LEDs.  Your perception is such that you cannot perceive the fact that the flashing LEDs are flashing on for a shorter and shorter time.  You perceive the brightness as remaining about the same but in actual fact each individual LED is outputting less and less light as you make the string of LEDs longer and longer.

So indeed, nothing special.  Resonance is not a factor in the JT circuit.  It's just an oscillator, nothing more than that.  The oscillator that is at the core of the JT does not resonate in the way resonance is commonly discussed around here.  When the inductor discharges and lights up a bunch of LEDs, that's a 'pulse circuit' function in the same manner that a 555 timer is a device based on pulse circuitry.  Pulse circuits and resonance are two completely separate things.

MileHigh


Offline bs2012

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 01:19:56 PM »
I have accedientally build a rather efficient, I believe, Joule Thief.  With a dead 0.8v AA, it could light up 11 led in parallel brightly.  The current draw from the battery is around 38ma.  The led keep light up, though very dim, when battery drop to 0.3v.  I believe the secret is on the toroid as other toroids would draw over 110ma.  I could not replicate it even with the exact ferrite toroid and wires.  I have tried 4 exact ferrite toroid and wires from the same source.

Any idea how to prove if the Joule Thief is overunity?

Any idea how to identify what cause the toroid special?

Any idea how to replicate the toroid?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 01:19:56 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2012, 05:04:18 PM »
I have accedientally build a rather efficient, I believe, Joule Thief.  With a dead 0.8v AA, it could light up 11 led in parallel brightly.  The current draw from the battery is around 38ma.  The led keep light up, though very dim, when battery drop to 0.3v.  I believe the secret is on the toroid as other toroids would draw over 110ma.  I could not replicate it even with the exact ferrite toroid and wires.  I have tried 4 exact ferrite toroid and wires from the same source.
These results are not remarkable; look back thru the several JT threads and you will see much better performances... and replicable ones. I have a simple, basic JT right here in front of me right now that lights up 4 parallel rows of 11 series LEDs -- plus two  more to connect to the transistor-- 46 LEDs -- running on a battery that measures 0.43 volts while running. I don't know how long it will run or how low the battery needs to be for it to stop... it hasn't stopped yet !!
But as exciting that is for me, I am fully aware (since I've been reading the threads from the beginning) that even this is a mediocre performance as far as efficient JTs go.
Quote

Any idea how to prove if the Joule Thief is overunity?
Sure. Take the output of one JT, put it into a filter capacitor, and use the filter capacitor to run a second JT. Run the first JT from the output of the second one in the same way. Remove all batteries and stand back. When it keeps running, you have proved that your JTs are overunity. (You might need to daisy-chain a number of JTs in this manner to have it work. Let me know how many it takes.)
Quote
Any idea how to identify what cause the toroid special?
Demonstrating that the toroid IS special in some way would be a good start. Then you'd look at the B-H curve for the material and compare performance with other well-characterized material formed into toroids or other shapes.

Quote

Any idea how to replicate the toroid?

Trial and error, because there isn't enough information in your report to do anything else.

Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2012, 05:23:11 PM »
Plengo:

Well a mechanical analogy for a coil with current flowing through it is a spinning flywheel.  They both store energy and then release it back and exactly the same equations describe their behaviour.  Do you consider a flywheel to be a possible source of free energy?  Many times I have posted a simple test to see if a coil discharges more energy than you put into it but not once has a free energy enthusiast offered to run the test.

The answer to your question is that the inductor takes extra get energy to get the current flowing but the resistor doesn't require the extra energy.  The extra energy builds up the magnetic field and when you discharge the inductor across a high resistance you get the BEMF spike and that extra energy is released.  It's exactly the same for a mechanical flywheel.  You have to apply torque to it to get it spinning and then when you apply the breaks to the flywheel there is your mechanical "BEMF spike."

MileHigh


first, thank you for answering my question. The inductor takes more energy to store the energy as magnetic field? Extra energy? if the inductor has for example 10 ohms resistance, how can it really take more energy than a regular resistor?


Fausto.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2012, 05:23:11 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2012, 05:31:54 PM »
MH:

I agree with you on what you said about the duty cycle and the human eye.  No problem there.

If resonance is not a factor in these circuits then why is it when I run a basic JT circuit from say a 10 F cap, and use a vr as the base resistor, I can add resistance and the lights get brighter and brighter and then, they will start getting dimmer as I pass "the sweet spot".  This is a very delicate adjustment to get it just right.  Any change in the circuit, even one winding, will make this resistance incorrect again and it must be retuned.  You are saying that this tuning does not hit a resonance node?  If it is not a type of resonance, then what is it that allows this tuning to achieve some very dramatic results when hitting the sweet spot?

Bill

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2012, 12:20:59 AM »
Lawrence.... did you make that graph with data from your scope set to AC COUPLING??? It sure looks to me like you did.

YES.  Thank you for your enlightenment.  I redid the experiments using DC coupling.  I can now specifically pick out situations where COP is greater than 1 with DC coupling setting on my oscilloscope at home.
There will be more experiments and many researchers double and triple checking the results.  Once that is done and confirmed, I shall publish the results.
The new technique makes resonance hunting and extracting electron motion energy a piece of cake.  The commercial interests may try to stop its publication.  The latest date for this information to become public is Oct 2013.
All Glory and Praise to the Almighty.

Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2012, 12:32:44 AM »
All Glory and Praise to the Almighty.
YES. all glory and praise to Shangdi!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2012, 12:32:44 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2012, 04:53:39 AM »
Fausto:

Quote
The inductor takes more energy to store the energy as magnetic field? Extra energy? if the inductor has for example 10 ohms resistance, how can it really take more energy than a regular resistor?

Not extra energy.  When you first put voltage across an inductor no current flows.  Electrical work has to be done to get the current to flow through an inductor (voltage x current x time).  The current starts from zero amperes and slowly climbs.  Once the current is flowing and you put a high resistance load across the inductor then you get a back-EMF spike.  The energy in the back-EMF spike is identical to the work (voltage x current x time) that was expended by the battery to get the current flowing in the first place.

This is in contrast to a resistor where the current starts to flow the instant you put voltage across the resistor.  There is no "extra work" required to get the current to start flowing through the resistor.  Likewise, there is no back-EMF spike from a resistor.

Bill:

Quote
If resonance is not a factor in these circuits then why is it when I run a basic JT circuit from say a 10 F cap, and use a vr as the base resistor, I can add resistance and the lights get brighter and brighter and then, they will start getting dimmer as I pass "the sweet spot".  This is a very delicate adjustment to get it just right.  Any change in the circuit, even one winding, will make this resistance incorrect again and it must be retuned.  You are saying that this tuning does not hit a resonance node?  If it is not a type of resonance, then what is it that allows this tuning to achieve some very dramatic results when hitting the sweet spot?

The "sweet spot" in the example you described is not related to resonance.  As you vary the base resistor the oscillator part of the JT is changing its performance characteristics.  You tune the base resistor in such a way that you have the coil switched on for a longer time and it's also possible that the switch-off of the transistor is "snappier."  The longer the coil is being energized the more current will be flowing through it when the transistor switches off.  The faster the transistor switches off the less energy will be wasted burning off through the switching-off transistor and the more energy will be passed to the string of LEDs.  So you get maximum brightness with your string of LEDs if you have maximum current flowing through the coil and the fastest switch off of the transistor.  In simple terms you were tweaking your oscillator circuit so that you were maximizing the amount of energy per pulse that was being transferred into the array of LEDs.  So tweaking in this case is not related to resonance at all.

This is where an oscilloscope is king.  What you want to do is make a timing diagram and with the aid of your oscilloscope draw up a timing diagram with all of the relevant voltages and currents that show the JT oscillator in action.  If you want to truly understand the circuit and how changing the value of one component affects the operation of the JT, then you want to understand exactly what each waveform represents and the interrelationship between waveforms.  It's not as challenging as it may sound.  For example, you see the voltage go high at the base resistor, and as a result you might see the voltage at the transistor collector going low because the transistor is switching on, etc.

The fundamental and most important two parameters for any JT circuit are the inductance value for the main coil, and the amount of current flowing through the main coil when the transistor switches off.  That determines the initial current flow and how much energy will be transferred into the LED or LEDs that typically form the load component in the JT circuit.  And of course that determines the brightness of the string of LEDs.

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2012, 08:48:52 AM »

first, thank you for answering my question. The inductor takes more energy to store the energy as magnetic field? Extra energy? if the inductor has for example 10 ohms resistance, how can it really take more energy than a regular resistor?


Fausto.
Let me jump in with an analogy. Think of electric current as the flow of water in a hose. A resistor, then, is just a simple restriction in the hose: it decreases the flow but the outflow happens immediately that you provide some inflow. An inductor is like a balloon or soft spot in the hose. You apply pressure at one end, and before anything comes out the other end, the balloon must swell up first. Then once it's swelled up... storing energy in the tension in the skin.... then output starts to flow, but it's the same current as the input. When you turn off the input, the balloon collapses continuing the outflow for a while and releasing the energy you stored in the stretched skin.
In an inductor the magnetic field is like the balloon. So there is a slight delay when you turn on an inductor as the field builds, and there is a slight delay.. .the current tries to keep flowing....  as the field collapses when you turn the inductor off.
The resistor takes extra energy to push current through it but this extra energy is lost: dissipated as heat. The inductor returns the energy it took to set up the field back to the circuit, it's not wasted.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2012, 08:52:08 AM »
YES.  Thank you for your enlightenment.  I redid the experiments using DC coupling.  I can now specifically pick out situations where COP is greater than 1 with DC coupling setting on my oscilloscope at home.
There will be more experiments and many researchers double and triple checking the results.  Once that is done and confirmed, I shall publish the results.
The new technique makes resonance hunting and extracting electron motion energy a piece of cake.  The commercial interests may try to stop its publication.  The latest date for this information to become public is Oct 2013.
All Glory and Praise to the Almighty.

OK. You are welcome.... but just to be sure that you are really enlightened, can you please repeat back to me your new understanding of the use of AC and DC coupling on the scope, and why and under what circumstances each is to be used?. By restating it in your own words we can check to see if your enlightenment is real, or an illusion.

ETA: Also, can your scope do math., specifically trace multiplication and integration, and can it store traces in memory?

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2012, 12:32:45 PM »
OK. You are welcome.... but just to be sure that you are really enlightened, can you please repeat back to me your new understanding of the use of AC and DC coupling on the scope, and why and under what circumstances each is to be used?. By restating it in your own words we can check to see if your enlightenment is real, or an illusion.

ETA: Also, can your scope do math., specifically trace multiplication and integration, and can it store traces in memory?

The Atten scope can store data from the two channels simultaneously as CSV files.  I can then use Excel to analyze the data as you have seen from the file.  This relatively cheap scope (<US$200) bought at ShenZhen is an excellent value for money instrument.  I believe PhysicsProf got one too.

I am interested in the formula that is correct in Physics:
Instantaneous Power = Instantaneous Voltage x Instantaneous Current.
That formula holds whether the system is DC, AC or Pulsed.

I initially did not use the oscilloscope and rely on Voltage Reading at no load to compare the various FLEETs.
I then put all measurements with AC coupling.  That gave high Output/Input ratio (False COP?).  Some FLEET with high ratios could light up many more LEDs for longer periods.  I used that ratio as a comparison index to determine which FLEET might be better.

I have now taken your advice.  I repeated many experiments with DC coupling.  Some low ratio FLEETs no longer show ratio greater than 1.  However, some FLEETs with high ratio in specific conditions still show COP >1.  The Average Output Power can still be negative.  It really narrowed down the search for resonance-tuned devices that show commercial value.

Thank you for your advice.  Now resonance tuning and getting commercial resonance conditions is a piece of cake.  I already achieved two situations in the last few days.  (The first commercial resonance condition took me eight years and G-LED found it. Not me.)  When there is lead-out or bring-in energy, having Output power greater than Supplied Input Power does not violate any Laws in Physics and has been achieved by many (who may not even know or know how to confirm it!)
*** The use of Vpp or AC coupling as comparison index was useful - even now.  The high index FLEETs work better!  So one can be wrong in the exact understanding but right in the general direction!

God Bless.


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2012, 05:13:09 PM »
TK:

Quote
Let me jump in with an analogy. Think of electric current as the flow of water in a hose. A resistor, then, is just a simple restriction in the hose: it decreases the flow but the outflow happens immediately that you provide some inflow. An inductor is like a balloon or soft spot in the hose. You apply pressure at one end, and before anything comes out the other end, the balloon must swell up first. Then once it's swelled up... storing energy in the tension in the skin.... then output starts to flow, but it's the same current as the input. When you turn off the input, the balloon collapses continuing the outflow for a while and releasing the energy you stored in the stretched skin.
In an inductor the magnetic field is like the balloon. So there is a slight delay when you turn on an inductor as the field builds, and there is a slight delay.. .the current tries to keep flowing....  as the field collapses when you turn the inductor off.

I am not a fan of your analogy because the current going in one end of an inductor is equal to the current going out the other end of an inductor.  With your analogy that's not the case.  In your analogy, the "balloon" is more akin to a capacitor connected to ground before the resistor.  Then the KCL works.

But let me modify your analogy and keep with the garden hose idea.

You have a straight 10-foot length of garden hose with a restriction at the end of the hose.  That's equivalent to a wire connected to a resistor.

Now, suppose at the 5-foot point along the hose you have a hose coupling.  You open up the coupling and you add a coiled 50-foot length of hose.

Now the setup is as follows:  A 5-foot length of hose, connected to a coiled 50-foot length of hose, connected to a 5-foot length of hose with a restriction at the end of the hose.

The coiled 50-foot length of hose is the inductor.  There is a lot of "extra" water inside the 50-foot length of hose and it has mass and momentum.   You have to do "extra work" to overcome the inertia of all of that extra water to get the water flowing.   If you block the end of the hose, you will get a big surge in water pressure.  That's the back-EMF spike.

You note in this analogy KCL is respected and works.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 09:30:37 PM by MileHigh »

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2012, 05:13:09 PM »

 

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