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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 347437 times)

Offline Neo-X

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Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« on: September 05, 2012, 06:17:13 PM »
Hi 2 all.. I would just like to know if the joule thief circuit gets overunity? I was searching for easy to build solid state overunity circuit and this is the best i found. I will try to replicate it if its really capable of getting overunity.

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Offline gadgetmall

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 06:27:50 PM »
Hi 2 all.. I just like to know is joule thief circuit gets overunity? I was searching for easy to build solid state overunity circuit and this is the best i found. I will try to replicate it if its really capable of getting overunity.
I personally believe it can be 101% efficient BUT out of 100's of Builds exactly the same you might get one that is displayed that way . The reason is different placement of parts . different gains in the same batch of transistors . different internal Core structure even thou you got 50 that look the same .and the stray capacitance in your circuit SO with that information  do like we did build 100's of them Wind different ways . and see :)

Gadget


Offline acmefixer

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 05:18:57 PM »
Hi 2 all.. I would just like to know if the joule thief circuit gets overunity? I was searching for easy to build solid state overunity circuit and this is the best i found. I will try to replicate it if its really capable of getting overunity.

I've found that of the hundred or more of the conventional JTs that I've made, the average efficiency is between 40 to 70 percent.  I've not seen any above that.  OLn the other hand, my Supercharged Joule Thief is about double the efficiency of the conventional JT.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 03:16:50 PM »
I personally believe it can be 101% efficient BUT out of 100's of Builds exactly the same you might get one that is displayed that way . The reason is different placement of parts . different gains in the same batch of transistors . different internal Core structure even thou you got 50 that look the same .and the stray capacitance in your circuit SO with that information  do like we did build 100's of them Wind different ways . and see :)

Gadget
Have you considered "resonance"?


Offline DimaWari

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 04:37:19 PM »
Try Osiris JT..

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 04:37:19 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2012, 01:27:13 AM »
Have you considered "resonance"?

Have you considered "reading" the existing Joule (Jule) Thief threads on this forum?

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 04:42:44 AM »
Have you considered "reading" the existing Joule (Jule) Thief threads on this forum?


I read some.  e.g. http://www.overunity.com/8564/new-jewel-thief-resonate-lcr-circuit-much-less-energy-draw/#.UKxG-Icsk1M


Some JT work better than others in specific situations.  The LEDs were brighter.  The no-battery time was longer.  The ring was louder.  The oscilloscope waveforms showed higher amplitude.  Is there a good way to measure and classify such?


I call some situations as "commercial resonance conditions"- meaning that commercial products can be built when tuned to such conditions.


BSI Energy Holdings Limited of Hong Kong was supposed to come out with an "Lead-out Energy Research Kit" that will help in the understanding of such resonance tuning.  I was hoping thousands would experiment and hit on many commercial resonance conditions.  I have not mastered a scientific technique to accurately predict or produce the commercial resonance conditions.  Much is trial and error.  The chance of hitting commercial resonance conditions is much higher with thousands of experimenters.


May the Almighty guide us to benefit the World.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 04:42:44 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 05:09:28 AM »
Lawrence, do you have a signal (function) generator? Using the function generator and the oscilloscope you can determine the resonant frequency of your JT coils, I think, without the rest of the circuit. Then you can compare the operating frequency of the running JT to the resonant freq you determined for the raw coils. It might prove interesting.....

As gadgetmall noted earlier, the main researchers in this thread (not me!! not yet!!) have explored the resonance problem and have learned a lot, and are using what they learned to make very efficient JTs, whether or not they are technically "in resonance" or even autoresonating. I think most of this information is in the threads, but I can appreciate that it's a long read....



Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 05:55:41 AM »
Lawrence, do you have a signal (function) generator? Using the function generator and the oscilloscope you can determine the resonant frequency of your JT coils, I think, without the rest of the circuit. Then you can compare the operating frequency of the running JT to the resonant freq you determined for the raw coils. It might prove interesting.....

As gadgetmall noted earlier, the main researchers in this thread (not me!! not yet!!) have explored the resonance problem and have learned a lot, and are using what they learned to make very efficient JTs, whether or not they are technically "in resonance" or even autoresonating. I think most of this information is in the threads, but I can appreciate that it's a long read....


We do have signal generators.  My first FLEET did not use JT circuits at all.  I used a signal generator as the Input Source.  I shall ask my teams to look into this line of attack.  The JT thread is just too long with both good and bad information mixed.  I wish someone can extract the good information systematically.  Thanks for your suggestion.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 06:15:04 AM »
The JT circuit is an oscillator where the primary function of the oscillator is to energize an inductor.  The inductor then discharges and makes one or 50 LEDs light up and the cycle starts all over again.

There is a fair amount of energy overhead to run the oscillator.  Perhaps up to 30% of the battery power is 'wasted' to run the oscillator.  The oscillator 'resonates' at it's natural operating frequency just like any other circuit that is designed to oscillate.  Beyond that there is no phenomenon of resonance at play in the JT circuit at all.

When the inductor discharges, perhaps up to 70% of the battery power becomes the useful output.  The useful output goes into whatever kind of load you want to connect across the the discharging inductor.  Since the discharge of an inductor is a current source by definition, the current decreases to zero but the voltage can be variable.  That's why a JT can light up 50 LEDs in series.  There is no 'magic' there, it's simply the way a discharging inductor works.

I am quite certain that a CMOS 555 with the right timing components driving an NPN transistor or a MOSFET to energize an inductor would outperform any JT circuit.  That's because the overhead to perform the oscillator function might be only 1% of the supplied battery power as opposed to 30% for the average JT.   However, this circuit would not be 'friendly' with respect to nearly dead batteries because it would need a higher minimum supply voltage to operate correctly.

The fascination with JT circuits is great and it's a great way to get familiar with electronics.  However, one should not forget that there is nothing special or 'magical' about it - it's just a circuit that energizes an inductor and then discharges the stored energy in the inductor through a load.  Because the discharging inductor acts like a current source and not as a voltage source, it can light up long strings of LEDs in series.

With a CMOS 555 timer setup, you would have the luxury of choosing your coil inductance and deciding exactly how much energy you want to store in the coil before the discharge.  You would also have complete control over the operating frequency.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 06:15:04 AM »
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Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 04:28:27 PM »

There is a fair amount of energy overhead to run the oscillator.  Perhaps up to 30% of t
When the inductor discharges, perhaps up to 70% of the battery power becomes the useful output.  The useful output goes into whatever kind of load you want to connect across the the discharging inductor.  Since the discharge of an inductor is a current source by definition, the current decreases to zero but the voltage can be variable.  That's why a JT can light up 50 LEDs in series.  There is no 'magic' there, it's simply the way a discharging inductor works.



Mr MileHigh, so long I don't see you. I have had no chance to go back at the other forum and continue my work on Bedini.


Hey I have some agreement and small notes about your quote above. Thanks to you, once I heard you saying that I decided to take that understanding and expand on it more. I am looking into old school (1911 and earlier) mathematics  definitions and teachings of other in this subject.


What I learned is that the inductor does behave as you said with a little trick. It is not relevant to input voltage the amount of the magnetic field created in the coil. W = LI. Also it seems that today school is only focusing in magnetic flux and voltage fields. Engineers tend to think more in terms of "electron" or particle flowing throw a wire than fields at play for BOTH electric and magnetic.


Dollard explain this in detail, and so Charles Steinmetz and to a certain extend Tesla with his concepts of wave length.


I think every time one creates a magnetic field in a coil, in our case a Joule Thief, we have the potential of extracting FREE ENERGY for good. I think you don't agree but I beg you to look into this in more detail.


A resistor will not present the same magnetic field as an equivalent resistive inductor, why? both will "burn" electricity energy into heat but the inductor will create this "BEMF" for you everytime. Where is the energy to heat and expand the field from, that the resistor does not have but a coil does?


I know even straight lines have induction but I am talking about accumulative induction when used in a different geometric form like a coil.


Fausto.




Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2012, 05:15:16 PM »
The really nice thing about the simple basic JTs using cheap transistors is the fact that they _do_ start up and continue working on very low input voltages. Perhaps their true efficiency could be beaten using more sophisticated circuitry.... but not on an input voltage of less than half a volt from a discarded AAA battery. MH is perfectly correct, even down to the resonance issue..... in theory. But in practice.... what are you going to do with all those really low voltage sources that can't run even a CMOS 555 or a logic-level mosfet?
Just about anything except a simple flashlight that is battery powered these days has a low-voltage cutoff. Unless it's specifically designed for NiCads or LiPos this cut-off is something around 1.2 volts per cell ....the point at which a AAA or AA cell is considered "discharged". But there is plenty of electrical energy left in a "dead" battery by this definition. Why just throw this energy away until it's been used for something?

And the teaching/learning value of the simple circuits and all their subtle variations is great. You can get all the parts you need for free, practically, from scavenging old TV sets; you can collect batteries from all your neighbors, and you can amaze your friends with your low-voltage Christmas lighting and your emergency light sources and nightlights. Up with the JT !! Viva JT!


Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 02:08:09 AM »
Hi 2 all.. I would just like to know if the joule thief circuit gets overunity? I was searching for easy to build solid state overunity circuit and this is the best i found. I will try to replicate it if its really capable of getting overunity.
Not all JT circuits are overunity.  The hint to whether the JT may be overunity is to examine the Output Voltage, Output Current and Output Power.  The attached diagram is from a JT with one LED as load.  The Output Voltage has peak much greater than 1.5V (the AA Input Battery Voltage).  The frequency is high.  This particular JT is not conclusively overunity.  But once you tune it with capacitors and resistors, the peak can exceed 100V with the same LED shining brighter.  At that condition (I call it resonance condition), overunity is achieved.
To conclude, just building a JT is unlikely to get you an overunity device.  If you do the proper tuning by much trial and error, you may hit on a resonance condition.  At that resonance condition, a JT may have Output > Input power.  If you achieve such a condition and keep it there, your device will be overunity.  At resonance condition, electron motion energy will be lead-out or brought-in.  Thus your JT does not violate the Law of Conservation of Energy.
Many researchers fail to do the tuning but the joule ringer is likely to have achieved tuning.  The ringing sound is an indication of possible resonance.  It is annoying but it is a good indicator.  The Lead-out Energy Research Kit from BSI (not marketed yet) has a ringing tone.
Good luck in your resonance hunting.  God Bless.

Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2012, 02:36:57 AM »
The ringing sound is an indication of possible resonance.  It is annoying but it is a good indicator.
the 'ringing' sound is an indication of oscillation and no, it's not a good indicator of resonance. it simply indicates that the circuit is oscillating. resonance is usually in a narrow band (or bands) of freq. your circuit could be 'ringing' and still be far from resonant.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2012, 03:02:29 AM »
Not all JT circuits are overunity.  The hint to whether the JT may be overunity is to examine the Output Voltage, Output Current and Output Power.  The attached diagram is from a JT with one LED as load.  The Output Voltage has peak much greater than 1.5V (the AA Input Battery Voltage).  The frequency is high.  This particular JT is not conclusively overunity.  But once you tune it with capacitors and resistors, the peak can exceed 100V with the same LED shining brighter.  At that condition (I call it resonance condition), overunity is achieved.
To conclude, just building a JT is unlikely to get you an overunity device.  If you do the proper tuning by much trial and error, you may hit on a resonance condition.  At that resonance condition, a JT may have Output > Input power.  If you achieve such a condition and keep it there, your device will be overunity.  At resonance condition, electron motion energy will be lead-out or brought-in.  Thus your JT does not violate the Law of Conservation of Energy.
Many researchers fail to do the tuning but the joule ringer is likely to have achieved tuning.  The ringing sound is an indication of possible resonance.  It is annoying but it is a good indicator.  The Lead-out Energy Research Kit from BSI (not marketed yet) has a ringing tone.
Good luck in your resonance hunting.  God Bless.

Lawrence.... did you make that graph with data from your scope set to AC COUPLING??? It sure looks to me like you did.


I am afraid I must ask you to rein in your "overunity" claims until you understand properly how to do power computations using your oscilloscope.

And I will remind you once again that POWER isn't necessarily conserved and that it is EASY to get massive gains in instantaneous output power, over instantaneous or even average input power. This does not indicate overunity performance at all. You need to INTEGRATE your instantaneous output power values over an appropriate time interval to obtain an ENERGY value, and compare this to the ENERGY value found from doing the same thing to the input instantaneous power curve.
In addition, your graph image is called "output power" but it's a graph of VOLTAGE. Voltage is not power.

And if your JT isn't making an audible ringing sound, it is either oscillating faster than you can hear (ultrasonic) or your coil is embedded in epoxy, or it's just not working at all.

ETA: I have made YET ANOTHER video explaining and illustrating the use of AC versus DC coupling on a JT output voltage signal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVFyaQY6pR0

I sound a little irate by the end of the video because this must be the tenth time I've explained this, as if to a wall with no ears. You cannot use an AC coupled signal, raw, to give you values for a power computation!! You must know the value of the true baseline and how much your AC-coupled signal has moved with respect to it. This information is lost in LTseung's graph above, and only the AC-coupled values, averaging to zero around the zero baseline, are shown.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2012, 03:02:29 AM »

 

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