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Author Topic: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out  (Read 221188 times)

Offline baroutologos

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barotolougos already duplicated, though not highest efficiency because of high idle current. With a bit of math and finding correct parallel cap he will get it right and happy days for us all.
 
Trust me, this is the real deal. Or I am blind and cannot feel heat difference of two similar light bulbs correctly. One burns my hand while other is cold. You don't have to attempt to duplicate if you dont want to, lets enjoy the summer time.

jack... i duplicated the effect and saw that this circuit resembles a current multiplier scheme as a parallel LC tank circuit is. In energy terms i did not find anything extraordinary.
And YES, i urged all experimenters especially to care about different bulbs brightness. This is quite deceptive.

for example.


i took my variac and one 75w 220volt bulb in order to flow some 0.1 amps in order the lamp to light faintly. This happens at 40 volts more or less, thus outputing the bulb some 4w. But if you pass this in your device and the 0.1 amps are of 220v tension is some 22watts (almost double). Assuming a P.F. of 1 then the second bulb will light far far more. :)

In other words current is not indicating of incoming power even in same resistances (bulbs) since different voltages are in play. If you cannot understand that, i cannot say anything more.

...
for experimenting shake,
Make the most efficient setup you can manage in resonable time and feed it with a standard or improvised inverter. Its easy to see input vs output. :)

Happy experimenting

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Offline AndrejSl

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In other words current is not indicating of incoming power even in same resistances (bulbs) since different voltages are in play. If you cannot understand that, i cannot say anything more.

Well of course, that's basic electronics. P (Power) = U (voltage) * I (current)
Jack you should measure amps and volts on both input and output when under load, then use above formula and compare power input and output.

@baroutologos, so what ur saying is there is no overunity here?


Offline e2matrix

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E2,

All switch mode power supplies such as used in computers has a 1:1 Ferrite transformer at the AC input line.
The transformers are small but could be used at lower wattage for testing purpose.

GL.

Hi Groundloop,   Thanks for the suggestion.  I had thought about that but based on what Jack was saying that they need a lot of winds and fairly high resistance or impedance on the input I didn't think the ones I've seen would work as they mostly appear to have a small amount of winds which I assume will be fairly low resistance or impedance.  I may be wrong on that and may check it out anyway as I've got dozens of those kind of power supplies laying around.

What is your take on Jack's concept here?

Offline e2matrix

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Well, earlier today I ordered two isolation trafos that I found on-line --  on the right in attached.   $11.66 each, from Allied Electronics.
The one on the left, toroidal, is also an isolation trafo and almost did that, but cost $18.11 each... maybe next time, but soon I'll have the two little guys (1.7lbs each actually).

  I was surprised I could get these at such a low price.   

Thanks again, Jack!   lots of fun and adventure thrown in...

Good find there Professor.  While fairly low wattage it's a decent price to check this out.  I'm actually astounded at how much they want for isolation transformers these days.  It's crazy.  I know copper is expensive but some of these places must think they are using gold.  Allied Electronics is a company that's been around forever - I was buying parts from them 50 years ago (maybe even 51 :)  ). 


Offline Groundloop

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Hi Groundloop,   Thanks for the suggestion.  I had thought about that but based on what Jack was saying that they need a lot of winds and fairly high resistance or impedance on the input I didn't think the ones I've seen would work as they mostly appear to have a small amount of winds which I assume will be fairly low resistance or impedance.  I may be wrong on that and may check it out anyway as I've got dozens of those kind of power supplies laying around.

What is your take on Jack's concept here?

E2,

>>>What is your take on Jack's concept here?

I have not studied this setup well enough to determine if it works or not.

>>>to have a small amount of winds

The small 1:1 Ferrite transformers used in PC power supply can easily
be taken apart and new windings added.

I think that one way to test this is by building an oscillator at the input and then
measure the power in vs the power out at DC level.

GL.

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Offline JouleSeeker

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jack... i duplicated the effect and saw that this circuit resembles a current multiplier scheme as a parallel LC tank circuit is. In energy terms i did not find anything extraordinary.
And YES, i urged all experimenters especially to care about different bulbs brightness. This is quite deceptive.

for example.


i took my variac and one 75w 220volt bulb in order to flow some 0.1 amps in order the lamp to light faintly. This happens at 40 volts more or less, thus outputing the bulb some 4w. But if you pass this in your device and the 0.1 amps are of 220v tension is some 22watts (almost double). Assuming a P.F. of 1 then the second bulb will light far far more. :)
...

Did you actually MEASURE the current ("some 0.1 amps")?
Did you actually MEASURE the input and the output POWER?  If so, what were the results (numbers)?

Would you provide a photo of your set-up?

Offline JouleSeeker

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Good find there Professor.  While fairly low wattage it's a decent price to check this out.  I'm actually astounded at how much they want for isolation transformers these days.  It's crazy.  I know copper is expensive but some of these places must think they are using gold.  Allied Electronics is a company that's been around forever - I was buying parts from them 50 years ago (maybe even 51 :)  ).

You're welcome, E2.  Hope you will do a build on this system. 
I went ahead and ordered a pair of the $18 toroidal trafos also (shown in post above) --likewise from Allied.

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Offline NerzhDishual

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Hi Ou dot com Crowd(?),

Yes, measurements, please!

In spite of some 'natural(?)' laziness, perhaps (certainly?) due to too much
pathetic failures and disappointments, I'm still game to test any device that
looks not too much over my building abilities (and my suppliers addresses, BTW).

My failures list is huge.
My motivation is still here but dimming.

Once upon a time, I even was told that one of my (poor) "device" might be kinda 'OU'.
Unfortunately, I promptly and definitely was informed that, over some meter
inaccuracy, it was not the case (= No 'OU'! Move along. Nothing to see)...
Can you imagine the disappointment of an 'OU' moron such me?

However, I'm also still game to spend some monies purchasing (in)efficient(?)
stuffs that would end in some garbage box when I die.
I just want to be enough sure that this new purchasing would not yet be another
useless spending.

I already have 2 small 1:1 trafos.
I would be delighted to consult any -as precise as possible- measurements protocol.

Gwella gourhemennou a-berz
Yann

One says "Please close the window, it is cold outside".
You close the window it still is cold outside.
Pierre Dac.

Offline gsmsslsb

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Hello All
I tried this morning with the single isolating trafo design.
But my trafo is too big.
1.5 amps idle current.
I am not sure if I can scale the whole thing up to this kind of size.
If I can get some big bulbs I might give it a go.
LV

Offline JouleSeeker

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Glad to see others are jumping in on this build.

Nerzh writes:

Quote
I already have 2 small 1:1 trafos.
I would be delighted to consult any -as precise as possible- measurements protocol.

1.  Which circuit to build, actually? 
Here I'm looking at building Jack's attached circuit, with or without the cap shown.  Probably will start without the cap at first.

2.  How to measure input and output energy? 
Since the power is drawn from the mains, I think a straightforward watt-meter can be used to measure the input power.  If the output power is approx 60 Hz, then I suppose another watt-meter (across the load) can be used to measure the output power.

Any comments on the above would be appreciated!

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Offline FatBird

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It looks like you are Right On Target JouleSeeker.
 
They sell Watt Meters on Ebay.com for $20 with free shipping.
The Kill-A-Watt meter measures Watts, Power Factor, Amps, Voltage, Line Frequency, etc.
 

Offline baroutologos

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Did you actually MEASURE the current ("some 0.1 amps")?
Did you actually MEASURE the input and the output POWER?  If so, what were the results (numbers)?

Would you provide a photo of your set-up?

Hey,
i did some actual measurments of my setup and reached some conclusions for me (even though i speak them loudly). then the setup is dismantled.
I do not see the merrit of re-assembling that poor setup of mine or even purchasing a 220 1:1 trafo to "see" and scientifically explain.

i do not ask anyone to "believe me" or to give up experimenting or even influence to do so. It's just my fetich to speak my oppinion (even though based on my facts and judgement and i feel no obligation at all at giving exact figures anymore to anyone. ;)

Happy experimenting


Offline JouleSeeker

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  Thanks, FatBird, good to hear from you.   I have three of the kill-a-watt meters in my home lab.
 Ebay also has a Chinese watt-meter at less than $20 that I use -- I have a couple of these, too.
 
 There is some discrepancy between the two types, calibration differences I suppose.  Thus, it is important IMO to use the SAME type of meter for both the input and output power; and to switch the meters from input and output as a further check.
 
 No numbers, no photo then? -thanks anyway, baroutologos.
 
  (Note: Jack N is on vacation.)

Offline wattsup

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@all

@JN asked me to take a look at this but I only had transformers that are 120/117 VAC, so the first secondary that supplies the second transformer cannot act like a perfect isolated transformer.

I tried it anyways and here are the results.

First coil feed via mains and a Variac is 108.4 VAC at 0.54 amps.
Second coil output is 62.8 VAC at 0.5 amps.
Obviously no OU there.

Again of course this trial is not as per the prescribed requirement of an isolated transformer. I tried all possible variables of connections to consider any polarity effect. This was the best of all of them with some even consuming up to 6 amps (really bad). The use of the capacitor doe snot change anything at all.

Since they are not perfect isolated and since I have four of these transformers I tried the primary-secondary-secondary-primary method to pair up two transformers to make two sets to again test. Nothing. There is just too much mass of everything to expect it to work that way. Light did not even go on at full power and tried various connections.

This does not discount @JN claims. It is still rather interesting that the output had anything at all given the connection method. The first secondary output is going in series with the second primary then both are shorted by the second secondary that has the parallel output across it, all under an alternating current. Maybe there is something there but with these transformers, I could not do it. I will find some suitable isolated type but I gather they have to have the highest inductance possible.

Photos of each are shown below.

wattsup



Offline AbbaRue

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A suggestion concerning getting a 1:1 ratio Transformer. 
Just get 2 rolls of wire the same awg. and wind a bifilar coil. 
Wind as many windings as you need to get the right impedance.



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