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Author Topic: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out  (Read 217061 times)

Offline a.king21

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Jack Noskills:
Just to be clear: Are you saying you wound your isolation transformer with the primary winding clockwise and the secondary anticlockwise?
 

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Offline e2matrix

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T-1000 or anyone with knowledge on this - a question on using a Variac for trying this.  I've got a heavy duty Variac and wonder if that would be like a 1:1 isolation transformer when it is adjusted all the way to full voltage?  In other words 120VAC in and 120VAC out.  I think I also have a second isolation tranformer out of an old power supply. 


Offline baroutologos

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Seems that simulation and real world do not match..

Is this is what really happens, I don't actually care since it works.


the problem is, i am afraid,  that it does not.

Online T-1000

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T-1000 or anyone with knowledge on this - a question on using a Variac for trying this.  I've got a heavy duty Variac and wonder if that would be like a 1:1 isolation transformer when it is adjusted all the way to full voltage?  In other words 120VAC in and 120VAC out.  I think I also have a second isolation tranformer out of an old power supply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer would not fit. It has single winding while it needs to be 2 coils on same core. The setup seems is quite simple from first look: TR1 gives power source and TR2 is connected as resistive load to TR1. But because of oscillation in TR2, it gives induction in its secondary and that increases impedance for TR1 while TR2 is under load...


Offline Jack Noskills

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T-1000, I tried parallel caps as you suggested and it helped. Also serial caps worked, right after upper coil before junction. If one would need to stop current flow without high self inductance then parallel tank circuit is the way to go. Earlier I had the opinion that series caps would be best but I take it back.
 
Those two trafos are not magnetically coupled and that is why tank circuits on both sides is the correct way. In Don Smith circuits you have aircored trafo magnetically coupled and there you need parallel tank in primary as to minimise current flow in there and series resonance in secondary as to maximise current flow.
 
In this setup however, you don't need any tuning caps. You minimise current flow by using high self inductance only.
 
a.king, winding direction matters at the secondary side but in case you have it wrong way no worries. If you connect the lower coil in wrong way then you don't get anything at load and all the power is used from the source. In this case power that is created by the first coil goes pass the load. If this occurs, just swap connections in either coil. We need to push from both coils to the middle at the same time. As they can run at full speed there is no delay of action, the source gets the same sinewave what it creates so it does not need to push more to compensate. In normal trafo operation the source always gets delayed version which then allows more current to pass.
 
One test I did was to take power directly from mains via 10 nF cap. I got no light at all. This confirms that we need a push, before we can push back. This pushing back then creates power that can be used. Also the power from the source gets used. Understand that there are three currents running: one current from the source, it goes via upper coil which creates current in lower coil. Lower coil runs and goes through the load, this then induces back EMF in the upper coil which is exactly in phase with source.
 
Same setup should work with higher frequencies so here is a proposal:
Take any ferrite core, wound wire on it until you get self inductance high enough at the frequency you want to use so almost no current flows. On the secondary side of this first trafo you put wire to meet your desired output voltage. For the second trafo, you can use bigger core and again enough wire on it so you get high self inductance at the same frequency. For the secondary side you then put the same amount of wire so it is exactly 1:1. Why bigger ? I noticed with nanoperm secondary that current dropped in the first trafo when load was taken. So stronger second trafo kicked back more towards first, hmm inductive kick anyone ?
If you are lucky enough to have high perm core, then you might find that you cannot get the frequency up as self inductance blocks current flow too soon. To solve this, you can add series cap, or even better try bifilar winding which adds capacitance. The more windings you can use the more flux you will get, of course.
To make a self runner, system needs to push back more and this you get with inductive kickback as I explained. Safety SG will be needed at the source so excess can be dumped. Self runner wont run too far unless there is always some load, so there needs to be a resistor at the load so you get higher kicks back, or a stepdown trafo in case you want to use higher voltage. For stepdown need to watch out so it does not block due to high self inductance, so use thicker wire there. When SG starts to fire at the source you can disconnect it from the starter battery. When you take power, kick back will be stronger and SG fires more often.
Hmm, I wonder if I just described what TK is using ? Did not realize it until I got to end of this thinking.
 
Here is my master plan. Anyone who does the above and makes a working prototype should get the second gold medal from Doc, I get the first one as one memento is quite enough. Your device need to give out more than 35 Watts, because that is what I am getting now. Now you will have your name on it and with help of Mr. Jones we go after bigger prizes. This OU prize here first, developer gets 80 % so he can develop it further: bigger, better, badder, well you get the idea. I might take 20 % to cover my own blown up meters and stuff I have spent for this. For bigger prizes I want equal share, just in case I happen to lose my nice job mysteriously. No greed, just that I got 7 mouths to feed. If someone then improves the prototype significantly then we make 40-40-20 split. This 20 percent will then be splitted again later in case someone makes another significant improvement and so on. Then we let anyone do the manufacturing, without anything coming to us unless they want to give. I need no hassles.
 
So boys, guys and fellow Duudson's, the race is on !

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Offline Jack Noskills

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T-1000 or anyone with knowledge on this - a question on using a Variac for trying this.  I've got a heavy duty Variac and wonder if that would be like a 1:1 isolation transformer when it is adjusted all the way to full voltage?  In other words 120VAC in and 120VAC out.  I think I also have a second isolation tranformer out of an old power supply.

Beware, if you dont know how trafos are winded you have 50 % chance to guess correct when you connect lower coil in second trafo. If you put it wrong way you will consume all power in your first trafo. Use a light bulb as current limiter at first trafo.
 
Or you can skip the first trafo and use enough caps instead, check the other picture I posted. In this case the first trafo will be in the grid somewhere.

Offline Jack Noskills

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the problem is, i am afraid,  that it does not.

You did not find anything wrong in my stoneaged testing method ?
 
If not then this is the way I see things now:
The World championship soccer game is 0-0, we are at the last minute of extra time on second period. This is the game-of-games, bigger than seventh game of Stanley Cup final, bigger than Super Bowl final, the biggest game there can ever be. The final game. You, barotolougos the goal keeper, prepares to block a penalty shot. All full of adrenaline and ready to block, your teammates are counting on you 'He can do it, we trained him extraordinaly well'. Trevor Buster, nick named 'TrollBuster' prepares to shoot. He knows that after this the game is over, there is no time left. Game-of-the-games will be finished after this, no matter what is the result. There is no pressure on his face, he is calm as the ocean, he has never felt as confident as now. What a wonderfull feeling that is. He steps just one step back from the ball as this is all he needs. He kicks the ball gently, as if it was a golf ball on the green right next to hole. Crowd goes mad, is this guy insane ! Loud moaning fills the stadium as 100 thousand people moan together. 500 million people moans together at their TV sets. We cannot win !!!! Ball starts to move, it rolls and rolls on.

It seems to take forever, you can almost taste the suspense. Ball reaches the goal and stops just after the goal line. Why isn't barotolougos the goalkeeper doing anything ? Oh lord he is just waving hands, seems he cannot reach the ball. Referee comes to check if it was a goal. He walks over slowly, looks on top the ball as that is the only way to see it exactly. Trevor is as calm as before, no sign of panic or fear in his face. Barotolougos the goalkeeper is swearing and spitting, why there is blood coming out of his face ? 'NO GOAL, NO GOAL' he screams in high pitch horrofied voice. Referee kneels down to get closer, suspense in unbelievable, Trevor turns around and begins to move towards center, slowly, calmly...

Referee stands up, blows in the whissle and points at the center. GOAAAAL! TrollBuster scored, crowd explodes, people at their homes in front of their TV sets begin to cry. To win the game-of-games all that was need was just one calm brilliant move, they have finally won the game after hundred years of waiting !
 
After game it was time for analysis, what in the world happened ! How barotolougos the goalkeeper could not catch that ball ! Slow motion shows that as the ball comes in he moves, so he must have seen it coming. But wait ! Why barotolougos the goalkeeper is behind the net ? You cannot catch the ball behind the goal, you only get mixed up with the net and hurt yourself. That explains why barotolougos the goalkeeper was bleeding. Now who ordered him there ? Pointing fingers turn to coach at the bench but he is not there anymore. He has left the stadium in a hurry and gone exile at north pole. He will never coach any team ever again. He is now history, forever.
 
This is as much I have to say for any offending posts that are not based on facts, you must be more clever. I hope you have as much fun as I had writing this, but wont respond again to negative opinions. Negative facts are a different story, they move things forward.
 
I will start my summer vacation after tomorrow, three weeks and no access to net. Meanwhile, the ball is now rolling and coming closer to goal...

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Offline Paul-R

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Could this project be run using a pair of toroids instead of the regualr trandformers?

Paul-R

Offline JouleSeeker

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Well said, Jack.

 
Quote
Here is my master plan. Anyone who does the above and makes a working prototype should get the second gold medal from Doc, I get the first one as one memento is quite enough. Your device need to give out more than 35 Watts, because that is what I am getting now. Now you will have your name on it and with help of Mr. Jones we go after bigger prizes. This OU prize here first, developer gets 80 % so he can develop it further: bigger, better, badder, well you get the idea. I might take 20 % to cover my own blown up meters and stuff I have spent for this. For bigger prizes I want equal share, just in case I happen to lose my nice job mysteriously. No greed, just that I got 7 mouths to feed. If someone then improves the prototype significantly then we make 40-40-20 split. This 20 percent will then be splitted again later in case someone makes another significant improvement and so on. Then we let anyone do the manufacturing, without anything coming to us unless they want to give. I need no hassles.

Sounds like a decent plan to me -- as replication is the key to good scientific progress (and to benefit mankind) -- I have three gold "medals" as you call them to go to you and the first two who reproduce and verify your discovery. (Which I personally think is or should be of greater value to mankind than the discovery of the Higg's boson!)

I will also be very happy to test for "strange" emissions from a working model, such as neutrons, gammas, X-rays, etc.   I can do this (and at no charge, of course).

Quote
Then we let anyone do the manufacturing, without anything coming to us unless they want to give...

Distributed manufacturing in several countries like this is a KEY factor in getting this past the censors IMO -- but I suggest you should at least request a 5% royalty-return on profits taken by others; again just a fair return to the inventor.  You may not be able to enforce such a royalty without a patent (attempting that would be a BAD idea IMO), but OTOH honest builders will be glad to pay such a royalty IMHO.

Thanks again for your willingness to share this openly and boldly, Jack N -- and hope you have a restful vacation.   :D
 

Offline e2matrix

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer would not fit. It has single winding while it needs to be 2 coils on same core. The setup seems is quite simple from first look: TR1 gives power source and TR2 is connected as resistive load to TR1. But because of oscillation in TR2, it gives induction in its secondary and that increases impedance for TR1 while TR2 is under load...

Thanks T-1000 -- I should have known that if I had even briefly engaged the brain from neutral. 

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Offline e2matrix

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You did not find anything wrong in my stoneaged testing method ?
 
If not then this is the way I see things now:
The World championship soccer game is 0-0, we are at the last minute of extra time on second period. This is the game-of-games, bigger than seventh game of Stanley Cup final, bigger than Super Bowl final, the biggest game there can ever be. The final game. You, barotolougos the goal keeper, prepares to block a penalty shot. All full of adrenaline and ready to block, your teammates are counting on you 'He can do it, we trained him extraordinaly well'. Trevor Buster, nick named 'TrollBuster' prepares to shoot. He knows that after this the game is over, there is no time left. Game-of-the-games will be finished after this, no matter what is the result. There is no pressure on his face, he is calm as the ocean, he has never felt as confident as now. What a wonderfull feeling that is. He steps just one step back from the ball as this is all he needs. He kicks the ball gently, as if it was a golf ball on the green right next to hole. Crowd goes mad, is this guy insane ! Loud moaning fills the stadium as 100 thousand people moan together. 500 million people moans together at their TV sets. We cannot win !!!! Ball starts to move, it rolls and rolls on.

It seems to take forever, you can almost taste the suspense. Ball reaches the goal and stops just after the goal line. Why isn't barotolougos the goalkeeper doing anything ? Oh lord he is just waving hands, seems he cannot reach the ball. Referee comes to check if it was a goal. He walks over slowly, looks on top the ball as that is the only way to see it exactly. Trevor is as calm as before, no sign of panic or fear in his face. Barotolougos the goalkeeper is swearing and spitting, why there is blood coming out of his face ? 'NO GOAL, NO GOAL' he screams in high pitch horrofied voice. Referee kneels down to get closer, suspense in unbelievable, Trevor turns around and begins to move towards center, slowly, calmly...

Referee stands up, blows in the whissle and points at the center. GOAAAAL! TrollBuster scored, crowd explodes, people at their homes in front of their TV sets begin to cry. To win the game-of-games all that was need was just one calm brilliant move, they have finally won the game after hundred years of waiting !
 
After game it was time for analysis, what in the world happened ! How barotolougos the goalkeeper could not catch that ball ! Slow motion shows that as the ball comes in he moves, so he must have seen it coming. But wait ! Why barotolougos the goalkeeper is behind the net ? You cannot catch the ball behind the goal, you only get mixed up with the net and hurt yourself. That explains why barotolougos the goalkeeper was bleeding. Now who ordered him there ? Pointing fingers turn to coach at the bench but he is not there anymore. He has left the stadium in a hurry and gone exile at north pole. He will never coach any team ever again. He is now history, forever.
 
This is as much I have to say for any offending posts that are not based on facts, you must be more clever. I hope you have as much fun as I had writing this, but wont respond again to negative opinions. Negative facts are a different story, they move things forward.
 
I will start my summer vacation after tomorrow, three weeks and no access to net. Meanwhile, the ball is now rolling and coming closer to goal...

I've got to say that was an awesome fun read !   If you don't make enough on your concept here you should be able to make it as a creative writer but if this all pans out I think you'll have no financial worries. 

Offline e2matrix

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Any suggestions on likely places to find 1:1 isolation transformers?  I've got hundreds of transformers on hundreds of circuit boards I've pulled out of all sorts of things from computer power supplies to monitors, TV's, printers and all sorts of things I've scrounged over the last few years.   I see some that are probably 1:1 but very unlikely to be high impedance looking at the windings (small number of winds at fairly large gauge). 


Offline baroutologos

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You did not find anything wrong in my stoneaged testing method ?


I performed a similar test to ur setup.. just to see myself the whatever effect. Indeed at appropriate R (load) hence bulb, then the input current to working trafo is less that the current that the bulb takes. interesting at least! Hmm.. if you measure the currents that each winding has when operating you see that both amount larger than that incoming the load? How is that... interesting...

So, clearly you have vectors in play here. I did a measurement analysis and concluded, that this method although current multiplier resembles short of parallel LC if i may say.
Of course, i did not sticked with high impedances and high voltages as the original suggestion that might alter a bit the setup, but i am pretty confident this is all about.

Care to all experimenters: Input current concerning 2 similar bulbs is not indicating to inputing energy. Thus e.g you can have a 100mA @ 220v (hence 22watts asssuming P.F. 1) input current to working trafo and lamp A not glowing (or a bit) and the second one to be bright outputing all those 22 watts (got the idea?) 

Am i wrong? :D The ball is back to you :D

@e2matrix

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IMO-Isolating-Transformer-MTSN-P-25-Pri-230V-Sec-230V-0-11A-I119K-/390414886600?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5ae68a66c8#ht_948wt_1163

cheap one to test

ps: i had fun with penalty and stuff description! that is all this forum about :)

Offline e2matrix

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baroutologos,  Glad you took that well and in fun.   Thanks for the tip although I was mostly wondering what the common use is for this type of transformer in hopes that I might already have one.  Also I'd need 120 volt to avoid complicating things as I'm in the land of 120 VAC.  Thanks also for the confirmation that something is indeed interesting here with this easy setup.   

Jacknoskills,  can you comment where you found the transformers for your initial test?  (I see now it was Christmas light transformers ?).
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 12:26:39 AM by e2matrix »


Offline AndrejSl

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Looks very interesting...

I would like to replicate this, though i don't think i have any 1:1 transformers. Can anyone show me how to connect the two transformers to create a step-up - step-down transformers with a spark gap?

Also, do both 1:1 transformers need the same number of windings to achieve resonance, if not can you calculate the capacitance over T2 to achieve it?

Also forget about simulation to show you the right results, if this is energy from the environment (vacuum) which we don't yet know, then of course it's not going to show in the simulation, as the simulation software is still based on a standard model of electro-magnetism. Actually we can use the simulation to confirm the experiments. If the simulation shows different results, it actually means that there is something wrong with the simulation software or with the standard model of electro-magnetism.

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