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Author Topic: Fernando`s Force multiplier  (Read 127779 times)

Honza

• Newbie
• Posts: 9
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2012, 01:06:23 PM »
Quote
Now what is surely puzzling to me is for the 'flag' --- if the big disc is about 8 inches dia of 1/2 inch plate and the small discs are about 5 inches of 3/4 inch plate the total weight is say 13 pounds. !3 pounds on a 18mm rod would last about 5 minutes at 1600 RPM before being flung across the room???

This may be a counter-intuitive issue. When you think more about it - for a disk/weight of a given mass more flimsy the rod/shaft - less movement is transferred into the disk/weight due to the ease of deflection. So paradoxically reducing the stiffness of the rod should lead to a situation in which the disk weight would  hardly move at all (at a given speed), while effectively opposing the oscillating forces produced by the moving link/arm.
And looking at it from a different angle - for a rod/shaft of a given stiffness one can achieve the same by increasing the mass of the disk/weight.

This could take quite a bit of experimenting to achieve, unless somebody knows how to calculate it (I don't)

Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2012, 01:06:23 PM »

vince

• Full Member
• Posts: 187
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2012, 10:35:55 PM »
I_ron

If you still have your Force multiplier and it can be repaired I suggest you try a higher rpm motor or a variable speed one. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

While I was working on a different project I cobbled together a small version of the multiplier. I am using a small dc motor,
with 8 and 10 inch cast iron sheaves for drive and flywheels. The shafts are just 3/4 inch shafting and the offset on the cam drive is 3/4 inch. When I first started it , it would vibrate and shake badly, however after it got past resonance it smoothed out like it wasn't even there.  The picture I took below has the motor spinning at 2300 rpm and the secondary flywheel at 1300 rpm. Like yourself I do not claim there is or is not any advantage to the system . Need to test a few things.  I did not mount any pendulum on it as my tie rod is quite short.  I may make a larger version if this thing pulls any kind of load.

Vince

caccr2000

• Newbie
• Posts: 41
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2012, 11:56:06 PM »

i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1159
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2012, 12:42:07 AM »
I_ron

If you still have your Force multiplier and it can be repaired I suggest you try a higher rpm motor or a variable speed one. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

While I was working on a different project I cobbled together a small version of the multiplier. I am using a small dc motor,
with 8 and 10 inch cast iron sheaves for drive and flywheels. The shafts are just 3/4 inch shafting and the offset on the cam drive is 3/4 inch. When I first started it , it would vibrate and shake badly, however after it got past resonance it smoothed out like it wasn't even there.  The picture I took below has the motor spinning at 2300 rpm and the secondary flywheel at 1300 rpm. Like yourself I do not claim there is or is not any advantage to the system . Need to test a few things.  I did not mount any pendulum on it as my tie rod is quite short.  I may make a larger version if this thing pulls any kind of load.

Vince

Good work Vince, I like it. I will keep this on the burner still, nice build. When you say 3/4 of an inch is that 3/4 total with 3/8 offset?

Ron

vince

• Full Member
• Posts: 187
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2012, 01:39:51 AM »
@ i_ron

Thanks.

No, the shafts are 3/4 dia. and the offset from the centerline of the shaft to the centerline of the cam pin (SHAFT) is 3/4"

In my opinion from watching this thing run it seems that basically it is a way of ( pumping) the secondary shaft and flywheel weight via the the cam and link.  To me it seems that the gain comes from the flywheel effect after it reaches its rpm range.  I tried different flywheel sizes and it definitely needs the weight to operate. It would just jam up if no flywheel is on it. When you turn off the power to the motor the things runs on and on because of this effect from the secondary shaft.  Once it gets to it's smooth operating range you can reduce power to the motor and the machine continues at the set speed.  Looking at the chart with that picture of Fernando's multiplier it seems that gain is most prominent at high rpm, much as a flywheel would do.

Going to try and put some load on it to see if it helps to have the multiplier attached.

Vince

Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2012, 01:39:51 AM »

Honza

• Newbie
• Posts: 9
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2012, 04:41:52 AM »
Hi all,
It is great to sea more replication attempts of this promising sytem. I have a friend who understands Russian language so I will ask him for the essence of the cometary in the most recent replication attempt videos (and will post it here).

After bit more thinking about the Ramos multiplier I wish to share what I can now see more clearly.

The energy gain of this system comes from force impulses created by the conflict of angular speed changes of the two axles / flywheels.

During the rotation of flywheels in opposing direction the geometry of the cranks and the connecting member forces one wheel to slow down while accelerating the other (and vice versa).

The overall power gain is thus proportional to the magnitude of these force impulses and the speed of rotation (which increases the number of impulses in a given time).

For a given distance between the two axles and a given speed the magnitude of the force impulses is directly proportional to the size of crank offsets (causing the speed changes) and to the mass of the flywheels (greater the mass, greater the inertial conflicts and  greater the force impulses generated at a given speed).

Therefor the power gain is rising exponentially with increase in angular speed. The higher speed is also required to get the system past the critical speed point (hammering and no power gain) and keep it well above this point. So the speed appears to be the single most important factor of the system.

Thus reducing the mass of the flywheels and reducing the crank offsets should make it much easier to pass through the critical point of speed, while not sacrificing anything of importance.
Further increase in the speed of the system should deliver and exceed (with ease) the power gain sacrificed by reducing the flywheel mass and the crank offsets.

Because reducing the crank offsets increases the forces on bearings and shafts and makes the construction more challenging and thus undesirable one can instead of it increase the distance between axes (which is inversely proportional to the magnitude of speed changes between flywheels).

Hope it helps

vince

• Full Member
• Posts: 187
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2012, 09:09:09 PM »
@ Honza

I will be very interested in reading what your friend interprets from Russian video.
Keep us posted.

Vince

Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2012, 09:09:09 PM »

Honza

• Newbie
• Posts: 9
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2012, 12:45:59 AM »
Attempt for translating videos of the most recent replication.

My friend told me that this is not Russian language. It is apparently Bulgarian.
As there are some similarities between these languages my friend could extract the essence as:
The motor runs on 380V and he used capacitors to get it started and run on 220V. The generator he used is â€œREGRETABLYâ€ 3.5kw modified from a petrol driven unit.
The maximum voltage achieved is only 170 -180V. If the pulley is swapped for a larger one the force becomes too much for the unit to get started / operate.
Then he describes mechanical and structural details of the set up / how it was put together which are are apparent from the video coverage.

vince

• Full Member
• Posts: 187
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2012, 01:49:04 AM »
Honza

Thanks

What your friend extracted from that video confirms what I found today. A small or large pulley will start the unit when it is unloaded, although if the position of the cams are wrong it could jam on starting and you have to turn it by hand first. Fernando had to do this in one video as well. If you put a load on the output secondary shaft it will only start if the motor pulley is smaller than the driven input.  Using larger motor pulley only stalls the motor.  If you load the system on the input shaft as opposed to the output shaft as Fernando does in the last picture i_ron posted then you get better results but start up is still a problem because not only are you loading the motor with the device's load but also the generator load.

In one of the videos posted by Fernando you can see the machine struggle at start up.  To me it seems that gain is only achieved after operating rpm is reached. At that point the flywheel effect takes over and you see considerable power in the system. Look at the power chart posted and it confirms this.  At start up my tests show that it is no better than trying to start the generator with just the motor.

Vince

caccr2000

• Newbie
• Posts: 41
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2012, 04:28:05 PM »

Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2012, 04:28:05 PM »

bryanwizard

• Newbie
• Posts: 23
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2013, 09:47:37 AM »
do not waste your for this... analyze first and make a simulation properly.

norman6538

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 352
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2013, 12:22:34 AM »
Is there any more recent discussion of this force multiplier stuff. I am working
on a simulation that has promise and hope to embody it next week.
I plan to drive it with a weight and string turning the axle so there are no
measurement arguments then compare what it can lift out the output side.

I see this as the Milkovic pendulum then enhanced by the bicycle wheel
weight as per here
That bicycle wheel has variable leverage as it rotates which enhances the
up and down force.

In my case I use a crank and wheel off balanced to represent the weight...

Norman

In the photo below the left wheel rotates clockwise causing the right wheel to rotate
and go  up and down.

cesamav

• Newbie
• Posts: 2
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #87 on: August 07, 2013, 06:45:20 PM »

imagenes de lo primero presentado a indecopi clave del archivo lo encontraras en el foro viejo de redjedie

Que tal:

Soy profesor de una universidad de mexico, y estoy interesado en conocer mas sobre este mecanismo.

Me gustaria ver las imagenes, pero tienen contraseña. Me pudiesen compartir la contraseña para ver la imagen.

De antemano agradezco la atencion, mi correo cesar_maza@hotmail.com

lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2151
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #88 on: August 08, 2013, 04:28:37 PM »
Que tal:

Soy profesor de una universidad de mexico, y estoy interesado en conocer mas sobre este mecanismo.

Me gustaria ver las imagenes, pero tienen contraseña. Me pudiesen compartir la contraseña para ver la imagen.

De antemano agradezco la atencion, mi correo cesar_maza@hotmail.com

cesamav

• Newbie
• Posts: 2
Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #89 on: August 13, 2013, 12:20:34 AM »

Te agradezco la informacion... hice un analisis sobre el mecanismo, revisando las aceleraciones en las masas inerciales y el pendulo.

Los datos arrojan el incremento de la aceleracion

Saludos cordiales