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Solid States Devices => TPU replications => Topic started by: Eighthman on May 02, 2012, 01:46:45 AM

Title: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: Eighthman on May 02, 2012, 01:46:45 AM
The above is the title of an article from EDN magazine (Feb 18,2010) I thought it might be very relevant to the search for Mark's secret especially since a rotating field was shown by a spinning compass needle. 
 
I'd post the link but I can't get paste to work in this post.  Do a Google using that title and it should come up. The driver chip is particularly interesting (L6204).
 
eighthman
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: e2matrix on May 02, 2012, 02:36:35 AM
http://www.edn.com/article/457397-Electronically_generate_rotating_magnetic_fields.php

Did you try Control-V ?  Thanks - that's the article above.  It mentions using a PIC controller and doesn't seem to really show a whole circuit.  Not sure how useful that's going to be unless you already are fairly good at circuit design but I might be missing something.  It looks like it basically is using 4 inducters in a circle or square and triggering them in sequence.  I doubt if he was using a PIC - don't think they even had them when he built the first TPU's.  Didn't the first Parallax PIC controllers come out in the late 80's or early 90's? 
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: Bruce_TPU on May 02, 2012, 02:58:46 AM
The above is the title of an article from EDN magazine (Feb 18,2010) I thought it might be very relevant to the search for Mark's secret especially since a rotating field was shown by a spinning compass needle. 
 
I'd post the link but I can't get paste to work in this post.  Do a Google using that title and it should come up. The driver chip is particularly interesting (L6204).
 
eighthman
The B field of a straight wire, with enough current can also spin a compass.  That was the whole point of why he wrote that.  To show it was not a solonoid, but the B field of the transmission line/output collectors. 
 
Cheers,
 
Bruce
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: sidneo on May 02, 2012, 04:16:13 AM
The B field of a straight wire, with enough current can also spin a compass.  That was the whole point of why he wrote that.  To show it was not a solonoid, but the B field of the transmission line/output collectors. 
 
Cheers,
 
Bruce


Hi bruce,


do you think i should use strait wires in a cylinder  or a toroid to achieve this .
i need a solid state rotating field on my circuit .
link : [size=78%]http://magpowersystem.free.fr/Page_5_fichiers/Circuit%20simple.gif (http://magpowersystem.free.fr/Page_5_fichiers/Circuit%20simple.gif)[/size]

Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: Lakes on May 02, 2012, 10:59:56 AM
See Stepper motor or brushless motor drive circuits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsmK6QHw9xM
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: CompuTutor on May 02, 2012, 11:53:30 AM
Title Quote:
"Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields"

Is there an example anywhere in nature where a magnetic field isn't rotating in relation to the matter it is interacting with please ?

I do agree though, bad topic naming aside, zero-beating an excitation against the enviromental oppositions so that it retards or advances as a "Walking" field around a toroid core is a legit persuit.

But what is to be gained via this ?



Remember, the compass is only a two dimentional representation of the field it is placed in, it doesn't show the real picture at all.

I sure wish an X x Y + Z(axis) pair of right angle torroids or something was available for an oscilloscope to display and model/render what the real picture is...

For those not familier, the "Z" axis is only brightness on an O-Scope.

Imagine looking at a (2D) "Slice" of our reality and trying to understand it, we think in 3D modeling, but a compass only shows 2D worth of info, how can we respect those findings ?

Even our "Magnetic Modeling" programs make an effort to represent it as 3D,
even though the display is still not a holographic projector.

You pick a single point of reference in relation to the test currently undergone,
and it displays the 2D representation on a 2D screen at best.

Only a program that allows mouse-rotation to orientate,
and is represented in a 3D display medium as well
can come close to representing the truth.

We laugh at 3D models etched into a plexiglass cube at our malls,
but an "Etch" of a REAL TPU RUNNING would yield all the answers.


Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: Eighthman on May 02, 2012, 05:09:56 PM
I was under the impression that Mark's device spun a compass needle round and round, giving evidence of switched fields that created a sort of rotation.  In addition, the gyroscopic effect suggests a rotation of fields. Add to that the visual of 3 or 4 windings placed on the black speaker form, hinting at such a circuit.
 
EDN is a top level design magazine so the construction details may not be for the 'do-it-yourself' type.  I would think other, simpler arrangements could be made for generating the pulses, however the driver chip looked interesting.
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: Lakes on May 02, 2012, 05:28:51 PM
If you really want to build your own circuit...

http://letsmakerobots.com/node/2898
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: Eighthman on May 02, 2012, 06:26:40 PM
The main puzzlement I have with Mark's device is the fact of its simplicity together with contrasting profound effects, especially if the story about a weirdly exploding TV set is to be believed. ( I wish there was some independent testimony on this. I had once heard about exploding TV sets in the former Soviet Union but was told that it was because of poor quality capacitors).
 
Obviously, there are plenty of rotating magnetic fields around ever since Tesla invented the induction motor. Is it enough difference that Mark's device used rotating fields on air cores?Hasn't anyone else stumbled onto this phenomena?  Maybe Hendershot, maybe Searl (if he can be believed).
 
 
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: CompuTutor on May 03, 2012, 12:51:20 AM
First, let me help you with the website link & PDF file,
I don't know why you aren't able to post them though:

Page:
http://www.edn.com/article/457397-Electronically_generate_rotating_magnetic_fields.php

PDF's:
http://www.edn.com/contents/images/6718481.pdf
http://www.edn.com/file/10550-Figure_2.pdf?force=true
http://www.edn.com/file/10715-Figure_3.pdf?force=true

Code:
http://www.edn.com/file/10724-Click_here.zip
http://www.edn.com/file/10724-Click_here.zip?force=true

Second, picture a 3-dimensional pattern. like a Lissajous pattern.
Now view it in only 2D, like the compass sees it, it would appear to spin.

I attached an animated .GIF picture as an easy example.
remove all vertical information a compass would not indicate,
and look at the crossing points on the horizontal line only.

See the problem with using 2D tools to see a 3D field ?

We need a proper 3D projection, from a 3D environment sensor,
to really know what the harmonics and patterns are in the TPU.

It's not like we can throw iron fillings at it in zero gravity,
or submerse it into a tank of ferro-fluid to see the patterns...

Your right though, simplicity is natures way, we just need better tools.

Don't get me wrong, I am not inferring a Lissajous is what they make,
look at magnetic modelling programs plots of Rodin coils instead please,
you'll clearly see why the ball magnet suspended in the ceneter spins,
this was just the simplest waveform to make the 2D-tool/3D-field issue clearer.
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: CompuTutor on May 03, 2012, 02:02:09 AM
I remember something with a fancy name like "inclinometer magnetometer",
it was a glass ball, with a smaller glass ball inside, with fluid between them.

The center ball is free to move, as it is suspended in the fluid,
and had a rod magnet in it to act like a compass to earths field.

It would not only show magnetic north for us northern hemisphere folk,
and also the penetration angle at the location it was used at too.

It was in a plastic gimbal frame with gradient markings to interpret it.

Anyone know where these can be had for cheap for those building TPU's ?

If the damping factor isn't to high, it could help adjust interactive frequency sets.



Easy enough to make one from a pair of those inexpensive
two-piece gumball machine toy containers, and a magnet.

A very thin kitchen oil should allow a fairly fast spin too...
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: Bruce_TPU on May 03, 2012, 03:56:16 AM

Hi bruce,


do you think i should use strait wires in a cylinder  or a toroid to achieve this .
i need a solid state rotating field on my circuit .
link : [size=78%]http://magpowersystem.free.fr/Page_5_fichiers/Circuit%20simple.gif (http://magpowersystem.free.fr/Page_5_fichiers/Circuit%20simple.gif)[/size]

Hi Sidneo,
 
I think you should think along these lines....  ;)
 
http://www.overunity.com/12144/eblv-genmotor-design-by-bruce/msg321090/#msg321090 (http://www.overunity.com/12144/eblv-genmotor-design-by-bruce/msg321090/#msg321090)
 
Cheers,
 
Bruce
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: Eighthman on May 05, 2012, 02:30:29 AM
Holy Cow! Read this exhaustive analysis of the TPU derived from hours of examining photos.
http://www.slideshare.net/niculaegeorge/a-detail-study-of-the-steven-mark-tpu-10721103 (http://www.slideshare.net/niculaegeorge/a-detail-study-of-the-steven-mark-tpu-10721103)
 
Very impressive
 
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: pauldude000 on November 26, 2012, 01:45:11 PM
Something for you to consider. First, you will notice that the original wiring diagram I had posted forever and ten years ago included the setup they demonstrate. What is wrong with the picture is that these coils will not make a rotating field......


The field, instead of rotating, swings back and forth, as they are exciting it with AC according to their waveform. AC reinforces back emf.


It would only appear to rotate. (Though this appearance would be in two dimensions as soon as the field itself reverses due to back emf.)


True rotation would be awesome, but inherently extremely difficult. It involves a ton of math, and relatively precise wire lengths (Including lead in and connective wires have to be included in the calculations.)


It has to be high frequency (Due to the speed of transmission of electricity in a wire. Higher frequency, shorter wire in the coil.) Low frequencies can cause rotation as easily as high frequencies, but the coil length can be astronomical, and the speed of rotation will be inherently comparatively slow.


I guess the ultimate question is which kind of rotation are you after?


Linear in relation to the circumference? (Coils aimed inline of circumference with magnetic lines following circumference. Very hard, limited use. One Tesla patent that I know of.)


Diagonal to the circumference? (Coils aimed at point of rotation, magnetic lines of force cutting across the circumference. . Relatively easy, examine any large size AC motor with both rotor and stater windings. or in a different configuration a small ac induction motor.)


Have some fun, make a stack of six and do both, with each layer counter rotating in relation to the one above, with serious juice..... Just let me know when, so I can find shelter.  ;D
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: enron-r-crooks on November 27, 2012, 08:39:59 AM
If anyone is still looking for a circuit, a doc is available from

http://www.stealthskater.com/Documents/TIME/RotatingFields.doc (http://www.stealthskater.com/Documents/TIME/RotatingFields.doc)

and a ton of info at

http://www.stealthskater.com/PX.htm (http://www.stealthskater.com/PX.htm)


You can use this to drive the coils in this page.


http://www.edn.com/article/457397-Electronically_generate_rotating_magnetic_fields.php (http://www.edn.com/article/457397-Electronically_generate_rotating_magnetic_fields.php)


I heard SM was into audio engineering  :-X
Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: mscoffman on November 27, 2012, 06:50:23 PM
I was thinking about standard synchronous AC motor/generators, which
literature sometimes claim have "rotating magnetic fields" working inside
them. What exactly is a rotating magnetic field? One way to think
about this is to have the motor/generator field wound in a spiral form.
*So that a "magnetic node" will  move about in X,Y,Z physical
space in the core material depending on the sinewave phase of the
driving signal*. This physical motion would inevitably called be
rotation because eventually the phase of an AC driving signal will
come around to repeat itself and the physical motion of a magnet node
will repeat itself at the same frequency. Until someone convinces
me otherwise, I regard this as a model of a rotating magnetic field.

An interesting question is would an AC motor armature that could be spiral
wound to match the field coil, then replacing that motor armature with a straight
strong permanent DC magnet, would that new rotor rotate along with motor's field flux?
I think the answer is; Yes, but the moving magnetic field node would have a tendency
to erase the permanent magnet by locally overheating it because the particular
polarity of the magnetic node will be concentrated on one small and moving
physical area of the permanent magnet of the rotor when it is under load.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Electronically generate rotating magnetic fields
Post by: Dave45 on November 27, 2012, 09:01:17 PM
This should work driving two sets of coils out of phase.
The driver also includes the choke SM put on top to draw the aether.
A choke stops high frequency from passing into an ac circuit, think about that, how does it stop hf,  ;)
Is there an electric field that orbits the chokes magnetic field at 90 degrees, I'll bet there is.

I too have been thinking on the tpu

coil windings and direction play an important role.