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Author Topic: Bessler's En Principia  (Read 82282 times)

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 05:23:16 PM »
   @All,
 Will buy the wood tomorrow. Just won't like working with a Dremel rotary tool.
What is interesting, to make the hub, I will need to use my Dremel rotary tool. It's
something that my router woudl be difficult to work with.
 In a way, it will be a some what spiritual/meditative thing. Have plenty of time so it
will give me something to do. The build itself is something only myself would probably
find interesting. I mean really (nothing personal), but who watches Rough Cut, Wood Smith
Shop or Wood Wright shop ? Watching people who have experience helps a great deal.
 It has taken me a lot of time to realize a good way I can go about it. I'll be building a
basic 8 weighted wheel that will make 8 knocking sounds per revolution. A description
that is well known by fans of Bessler.
 I guess won't be much to say until i get it built and I'll be taking my time in doing so.

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2012, 04:55:22 AM »
 @all,
 have been wondering the cost ov a 30 inch wheel. the main hold up on this is I will need to rent a small storage unit where I can rout parts. with something like this, I would want everything to ne square when I rput radii. better fit would make it structurally stronger.

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2012, 07:58:02 PM »
    @All,
  The first picture is of a test build I did about 5 years ago. I built it so I could test for acceleration
and conservation of momentum. it was helpful but what surprised me the most was how quickly
the wheel stopped when the over balance weight went to move underneath the axle, needless to say, it was
surprisingly quick.
 And the second picture is a modified Mt 37 where 2 levers drop lifting weights at the top and bottom of the wheel.
 It is by doing such builds that helped me to realize that water could provide more over balance and at a much
lower cost energy wise. This is important if the wheel is to do work such as what has been said about Bessler's.
 I have found that in time, I can get my idea's turned into something. I like building but I do not like someone
trying to take over my work when they are not willing to do any work themselves. As AB Hammer always said,
there are 10,000 ways to use a lever. And since i do not wish to try that many ways, I need to take the time needed
to consider the best 3 or 4 ways and maybe try those. Since this is all custom work, it will sometimes take repeated efforts
to get something done. That is all a part of developing an idea.
                     
                                                                                                                                    Johnny

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2012, 04:03:26 PM »
   @All,
 It's interesting how pirate88719 can post that I don't build anything. I have shown some of my work but have no need to show all of it. Just as with the basic pump I built, it is necessary to start somewhere to understand what Bessler knew about pumping water.
 I do believe it is the special weight he refers to in his drawing Maschinen Tractae 20 when he said he used a special weight. It will take time to understand how to build an efficient pump that can be used in a wheel. it's not something as simple as Heron's Fountain where all you do is calculate to pressure heads using PiR^2*H = Vol. as Heron showed the pressure head with more volume will do more work. This is because volume equals mass. In the metric system, 1 liter equals 1,000 cubic centimenters. And with the American or SAE system of measurement, 16 oz.s of water equals about 28.3 cubic inches.
 Working with pumps as I believe Bessler did, it is important to know this as it allows me to know the diameter of the tube and the width of the wheel if the tube is fully expanded.
 With developing a pump that uses principles that Bessler mentioned and showed in his drawings does take time. This would be the only way to demonstrate that Bessler was intelligent enough and di have the understanding to have built his wheel.
 And myself, I see no reason why a moderator would allow me to be flamed while doing research at my expense on an obscure part of German History. It really shows no respect for this forum or the subject content being discussed in this forum. It is like they say about climbing Mount Everest, the hike up it starts with but a single step.
 
                                                                                                   Jim
 
>> And FYI, if the flow of water is to be maintained in one direction, it needs to be able to over flow the loop seal (a loop seal prevents air from escaping the chamber that water is flowing into), something they teach in school if you ever go for engineering.  <<
 With a Bessler type system, the pump itself would create a seal.

Pirate88179

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2012, 03:19:30 AM »
Captain Oblivious:  (Jim)

Wow, you made some door stops.  You said you have 5 working overunity devices that will run forever.  Where are they?  How much OU do these devices above make?  Where is your perpetual Heron's Fountain that you said was so easy to make?  Where is Bessler's wheel that you said you were the only person in the world that understood how to make one?  Oh, so you DON"T have any WORKING devices then?  More lies I guess.

Stop mentioning my name in your many topics and just leave me alone.  Also, stop telling lies.

Bill

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2012, 01:39:34 PM »
  Bill,
 I'm in no hurry to build Bessler's wheel. How much I have done, I won't make known.
 The work I am currently doing is to work on the design, construction and function of the wheel.
 By having taken my time, I have become more aware as to what it will take to "prove" it is Bessler's wheel. Otherwise it could be considered mine which means Bessler would lose out.
 And yes, I do have a specific design in mind. Even so, it will take time to make it a Bessler wheel.
 And if anyone likes, we could discuss his drawings.

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2012, 03:37:21 PM »
   @All,
  With Bessler's wheel, it is possible that one of his clues was over looked. It is said that one of his witnesses "saw" a
weight landing on a warped board. In Mt 20 I have circled where a "weitght" lands on a warped board. It is possible that
Bessler himself planted this clue and the question to be asked is why.
 If you consider his quote "Here the previous levers work somewhat more peculiarly and raise up special weights and turn outward to the over balance. For this reason side A is always heavier, my friend supposed but I denied. I then reminded him to harness the horse in front."
 - Johann Bessler"
 then we know the "weight" can rotate in either direction. What is curious about this is that the "weight' stops short of full extension. It pressing against the outside of the wheel gives it no advantage unless it has to do with lifting his "special" weight.
 When you guys go to the store, go to the automotive section and look at the hydraulic jacks. And when you look at them, look for them using a long lever that is anchored or allowed to pivot on one end. And then notice how far from the end of the lever where it pivots that it has a link that it moves.
 You will see this is quite similar to what Bessler drew 300 years ago. And after you become aware of these similarities, look for how much work the jack can perform, you know, how much weight can it lift with that simple arrangement of a lever and a pump.
 And this is the test wheel I am currently building. It will be to demonstrate that by using the same hydraulic principle, that water can easily be pumped around the outside of a wheel. And this is why I do need to take my time with it. I will even be attempting to use 2 seperate levers as bessler shows in hsi drawing but will be adding a thresher also shown in his other drawings. It just makes so much more sense using such a configuration and would allow for much force to be generated with a single lever by using more of it's motion to generate force.
 The second picture shows where if a thresher (linkage) is used to operate a pump, it can easily double the force of the long lever because it would be closer to the pivot than the end of the short lever. And with this, it is simply a matter of dividing the length of the long lever by the length of the short lever. If the long lever is as an example 1 meter long and the short lever is 15 centimeters long, the ratio is approximately 7:1.
 This would mean that the force the thresher would exert on the outside of the wheel (the pump) would be 7 times as much as the weight on the long lever. And please do yourself a favor and go to the store and look at jacks, you might be surprised how something so small can lift so much weight.
 
                                                                                                                                                    Jim

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2012, 06:33:46 PM »
  @All,
 Here are a couple pictures of my hydraulic floor jack. It uses a lever that is about 15 inches (37.5 cm's) long
and can lift a maximum of 4,000 lbs. or about 1,800 kg's.
 I have marked in the picture where it pivots on the jack and where the "thresher" is located. With Bessler's
wheel, I'll be using 1 lb. (about 450 grams) and pump 1 lb. (450 grams) of water. Using a long lever, I should
be able to generate 10 times the force or I should have 10 lbs. (4.5 kg's) of pressure to pump the water with.
 And if pressure per square inch or centimeter is considered, the pump will be about 12 inches (30 cm's) long
and about 2 1/2 inches (6 1/4 cm's) wide. If you do the math, then 30 cubic inches would have a resistant force of about
.030 psi and about .3 psi of force acting on it. In cubic inches, it's about 23 grams of force per square centimeter being applied
to it and a resistant force of  2.3 grams per square centimeter.
 Not sure why I shouldn't expect a successful demonstration, hydraulics have been in use for a long time and is possibly an invention that Bessler missed out on because his wheel was kept secret.
 Another discovery that Europe may have missed out on (the Chinese made titanium around the time of Jesus) was advanced metallurgy.
While in his drawings he considered round bellows, again, his work was not made known. You see, with round bellows, more air could be pumped than traditional European style bellows allowing for a much higher furnace temperature. And with higher tempertures, exotic alloys could have been discovered which might have aided in the Industrial Revolution in Europe.
 So when people think of his wheel, it would have been what he knew about engineering that would have been worth much more than money, it might have changed European History in ways we can't imagine.
 
                                                                                                                                       Jim
 
edited to delete the name brand of my hydraulic jack.
edited to add; with the link to some bellows, imagine if it was pumping water.
the idea is pretty much the same and is something Bessler would have seen when
he visited his friends black smith's shop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkF8Ut46faI
 

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2012, 03:23:24 AM »
  @All,
 What has helped me with something like this is having a father lime mine who was from Norway.
 Besides having become a business manager and Field Engineer, he had also obtained his 1st Mates license with the Merchant Mariner Association.
 And I think Bessler's work is something he would have liked.
 One way to understand how much force it takes to pump water is to watch some of the videos of Heron's Fountain on youtube.
 When you do, observe the height of the column being pumped.
 Then notice the height of the tube being filled. This will give a ratio of the force necessary to pump water.
 Knowing this, all that is needed is the same ratio of force acting on a bellows type pump. A tube between 2 boards serves the same purpose.

                  Jim

edited to add: with the numbers I've been working with, the tube only needs to open to a depth of about 5/8th's of an inch. This should allow for a ratio of at least 20 to 1 which should be more than enougn for Bessler's wheel to work.

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2012, 03:22:04 PM »
   @All,
 The attached picture is the design I am working to develop.
If you compare this design to Maschinen Tractate 20, you will find many similarities.
 For a 30 in./75 cm. wheel, if the tube has a circufrence of 7.75 in./17.8 cm's (approximate).
the warped boards would need to be about 3 1/4 to 3 1/2 or 8.5 to 8.75 cm's wide.
 This would mean each (8 total) pumping section would be about 12.75 in./29.45 cm's.
And the depth of the tube (amount is is allowed to open) would be about .5625 in./1.4 cm's.
 In the attached drawing, the levers are 11 cm's long  and the shorter levers are 2 cm's long allowing for
a ratio of 5.5 to 1.
 The angle between the long and short levers would be one way to time when the most force is applied to the pumps.
Also, with the "threshers" being in a fixed position on the pump, the pumps would maintain their position which would be important.
 And with the weights, they have no under or over balance. If the wheel were built and a weight placed on it's rim, then what ever weight it would take to rotate the wheel would be the amount of water needed in the tube to have a similar effect.
 Il est vrais, n'est pas ? Schto o tebe Bill ? Alain ? Je veux savoir.

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2012, 03:36:59 PM »
  @All,
 I couldn't resist this so here goes.
The attached pic is of supergokue1's Heron's Fountain. I think it's nice when people are willing
to share information.
 What I have done is captured an image of his fountain to measure the pressure heads. What I found
is the pressure head performing work has a little over 3 times the mass or volume as the pressure head
being pumped. If these same values hold true for any water pump (not sure why they wouldn't be close),
then with a 5.5 to 1 ratio, it could be possible to have the amount of water (weight) to be more than the weight
operating the lever/pump. A simple way to look at flow and force plus there are many people on youtube who
enjoyed posting their work/research just as Vejlko Milkovic has done with his Oscillating Pendulum.  :D
 
                                                                                                                         Jim 
a link to supergokue1's video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92tk8oB8QAY
 
edited to correct sgokues name
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 05:41:44 PM by johnny874 »

TinselKoala

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2012, 06:07:18 PM »
You think it's nice when people are willing to share information? Is that why you sent me this lying PM, but blocked me from replying?

Well, I'll share the information here, then. You sent me this PM to provoke me, and you make, once again, the accusation that I and others are somehow ripping something off. Yet you still seem to have trouble with your dates and who said what. 

Here's my response, and your trolling PM to me, that you send out but refuse to receive a reply to.

:::::::::::::::::::::::

This is my answer to the trolling spam PM you just sent me, Jimpbo. I have to put it here... because you blocked me from replying, like the soft little clay caricature of a person that you are.


You are lying again and you really should stop.

Bill and I both gave full credit for our Heron's Fountain builds to the Make magazine article which has been referenced many times. My idea concerning the Heron's Fountain was to put a multichamber Zed into the bottom reservoir, which I did and showed in a video on August 24, along with the positive effects and their explanation. You once again accuse me and Bill of "ripping off other people" which is an unsupported lie. The evidence shows that you are a troll and a stalker and will not recant your lies and accusations. Nor will you actually build anything of your own to prove your contentions. Heron's Fountain has been around for a long time, and nobody around here is claiming to have invented it, Johnny, but you are making many false claims about others in your posts.


it is listed 3rd on the search for Heron's fountain and looks a lot like what you guys built, even reverses flow like you guys did.
You should let him know he's ripping you and bill and magluvin off.
 Of course, his video is about 2 years older than what you did, the evidence shows you guys can't come up with an idea on your own and don't mind ripping off other people.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92tk8oB8QAY


johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2012, 06:55:21 PM »
   @All,
 Please ignore Alan. As you can see,. neither him notr his friend Bill discuss engineering.
This is soemthing my father told me had to tolerate from Americans. Unfortunately for them,
I am not my father and since this is not the 1950's and 60's, I have no need to tolerate their bigoted behavior.
 As you can see, they are upset that I can discuss the engineering behind heron's Fountain and this also means
how it might work perpetually. It's a simple propostion really. If the column of water performing work has a larger
diameter, it will hold more water while having less height. And with what Heron demonstrated, the 2 pressure heads
do need to be kept seperate or otherwise the 2 columns would have the same height.
 In pirate88719's thread, I offered a basic design to them if they wanted to try it and was ignored for it. I guess
I am not American enough for them. Thank God is all I can say.
 I have met many Americans who do not judge me because my father immigrated to America or that I learned to speak
in Norway. As pirate88719 told me, I need to work on my English. My friends are fine with my English  :D
 
edited to add; my father was asked on more than one occasion why doesn't he move back to Norway because he wasn't welcome in America.
What to say, ignorance is difficult to understand.
 
edited to add; since this is Bessler's wheel, anyone can build it. And if soemone is up to a challenge like this, I may be able to help with what I have learned with the work i have done.

johnny874

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2012, 08:33:23 PM »
  @All,
 I hadn't taken the time to read Alan's post.
I guess next will be another one of his friends attacking me. The idea I posted for a perpetual Heron's Fountain they claimed was their idea.
 It's one thing for them to attack me, but to bring the person whose video I linked to is a new low. Will need to block him and his friends.

edited to add; if I am building this to impress anyone, it would be a gal I know at work. This is something that she would like to see. but with how much work I've missed because of medical problems, any more , who knows.

Pirate88179

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Re: Bessler's En Principia
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2012, 09:34:54 PM »
   .
This is soemthing my father told me had to tolerate from Americans.

I am not American enough for them. Thank God is all I can say.

As pirate88719 told me, I need to work on my English. My friends are fine with my English  :D
 
edited to add; my father was asked on more than one occasion why doesn't he move back to Norway because he wasn't welcome in America.
What to say, ignorance is difficult to understand.
 
.

Hey Captain Oblivious, this one is very easy....if you do not like America nor Americans, then get the fuck out!  America does not need lying cry babies like you anyway.  Take your Socialist ass to whatever country you think is better...do it now....PLEASE!  If you need a ride to the airport, i will gladly arrange that.

How dare you insult this great country of ours.  You are scum of the lowest kind.  If you can't speak/type/read English then go back to wherever you came from.  I suggest a country that speaks gibberish fluently as you seem to be able to do that well.

Bill