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Author Topic: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results  (Read 18172 times)

Offline ydeardorff

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Last night I got some major progress in the completion of my cell.
Mine is a modified dry cell that is a full flow design, to eliminate voltage leaks via hole cut in the plates.

I ran a couple of tests using my schumacher car start engine stand.

I ran the tests with an EDM carbon electrode, and a nickel/copper alloy sheet, and a sheet of pure titanium.
The tests were run using various gap thicknesses, at 6VDC an about 12 amps per plate gap.

I found that gaps as small as .020 were inhibiting the gas production, and the wider my plate gap became all the way up to .080" the production exponentially increased. To the point when I reached .080"  the bubbles were huge, and the production was excellent.

Carbon/Nickel arrangement:  .080" plate gap, 6vdc @ 12 amps, electrolyte was distilled water at a solution strength of 3 teaspoons per gallon of potassium carbonate.
Nickel as the anode resulted in blue precipitation and quick degradation of the nickel electrode. Nickel as the cathode resulted in production comparable to titanium, with no precipitation from the nickel plate, only minor soot deposition into the water darkening it. But nothing that couldn't be corrected with an inline filter.

Carbon/Titanium arrangement: same as above except with the following noted. Titanium sheet placed as the cathode produced the same or similarly as the nickel alloy sheet. However when placed as the anode, it reacted similarly to that of aluminum like a rectifier, and no production occurred.

In both cases where production was occurring black soot from the carbon electrode changed the color of the water.

The results were tested starting at 3vdc @ 12 amps, through 12vdc @ 2 amps. There seemed to be a "sweet spot" around .080" and 6vdc @ 12 amps where production was the best.

3VDC produced very fine bubbles, but little if anything to mention.
5VDC produced better, but not quite as good as 6VDC.
6VDC produced amazingly well, huge bubbles, enough flow to burst the tape gaskets on my wet cell test, and create a whirlpool effect in the tank.
12VDC @ 12amps, was negligible in production increase, and not worth the heat it produced.

I am rigging up a two gap dry cell, with the titanium cathode in the center, surrounded by carbon anodes. Once I get the bolts, and seals finished, Ill get her up and running for testing.

Periodic table:
Carbon, naturally wants to be noble, by gaining 4 electrons. This makes carbon a reactive element, that we can capitalize on its properties. Moving to the right on the table places you into the gas elements which of course we cant use. Moving left, plants us squarely, on nickel.
I took it further, Moving further over to titanium resulted in similar effects. As titanium is cleaner, and safer to use than nickel I figured I'd give it a shot. The results were very nice in both respects. I plan to build two identical cells, one with nickel as the cathode, and the other with titanium as the cathode. Once the cells are built, and flow tested, I will post the results.

Now, please correct me if I'm wrong. But as I understand it from class. All atoms inherently want to noble in their electron, proton, neutron arrangements. Carbon wants to gain 4 electrons naturally to become noble which would make neon. So if I placed titanium in the electrolysis cell it gives up the 4 electrons to the carbon making a neon like full electron valance, and its reduction to 18 electrons make it also noble forming an argon like electron valance. With that said, if nickel loses 4 electrons it becomes chromium, so nickle is out if that's true. That would mean that titanium would be perfectly suited for use with carbon.

The neon and argon atoms produced would no doubt be suspended in solution. But the interaction with the potassium carbonate is still the wildcard I have yet to answer. Im awaiting a call back from the local university's chemistry department on this.

Once I determine the best of these two configurations, i will convert my cell into a separator cell via anionic membranes, so I can utilize just the hydrogen gas independently, or combined as HHO.

This morning I went back to the tank i ran my tests in, and the carbon particulates (akin to what you get when you rub your finger on a pencil tip) settled to the bottom of the tank leaving the water clear. This leads me to believe i should be able to separate the particles in an inline separator. I ran this through a sponge, and it cleaned the contaminates right out.
Next i will see the results in lowering the per plate gap voltage, and equally reducing the plate gaps. i think that if I can get the cell to 3 VDC per plate gap, with comparable production i should be in business.
The carbon soot was about 1/16th and inch deep in the bottom of the tank, with no perceptible degradation of the electrode itself.

If the carbon becomes a problem Ill try the platinum coated hard drive platters, as the anodes to see if that makes any difference.

Any thoughts on my findings?

« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 02:04:51 AM by ydeardorff »

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Offline ydeardorff

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 09:50:35 PM »
Bumped for update


Offline Hydrogenie

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2012, 04:32:22 PM »
Nice job there ydeardorff.

I don't know why you liked carbon. I don't like to use it because it disintegrates whenever you pass current through it and thus darkens the water. I think you missed something in reading the periodic table and choosing the materials. Also, I am no longer using plate configuration and always start my test without electrolytes. Anyway, I hope and pray for your success.

Offline ydeardorff

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2012, 09:59:13 PM »
What do you mean I missed something? Please explain.

Using same metal types reduces production do to not exploiting natural metal reactivity. Carbons precipitation is directly relative to the amount of voltage applied.
I noticed the production is very different from other cells Ive witnessed. The bubble size is huge The minimum bubble size coming from my wet cell test of my dry cell electrodes, resulted in bubbles that were a minimum of the size of a pencil eraser. Not the micro clouding bubbles normally seen. The larger the gap the bigger the bubbles were.

The precipitants clouded the water yes, but pouring the electrolyte through a simple sponge removed them leaving the water clear.

Im trying to get direct answers for my research. Ive been working with metals for 20 years, and working on this project for about 3.
My first two were SS proof of concepts, then after talking to a non nuclear hydrogen production company, I moved to nickel and iron like they use, and finally started testing carbon. The results were energetically better than anything before. This along with the bubble size was much larger, with little if any heat problems.

Some of my verbage was off i know that above. As the chemistry in these cells dont make neon, and argon, but rather allow the electron valance to become full for the carbon, and titanium ions. This makes them stable, and puts them in a state that they naturally want to be. Or so Im told.

Another thing Im working on testing is use of bi-metal bi-polar plates, AKA neutral plates. As each side of the neutral plate is a different polarity, so should they be differing metals. The real trick is joining them so they become one electrically.

I feel there is real fruit in the idea of exploiting metal reactivity, and natural polarity. I havent seen nor heard many getting int the science of this. But rather just slapping stuff together to get results.

Another note was titanium act like aluminum, when placed opposite of its natural state. It pulls the rectifier routine and stops production completely.

Im not trying to defend myself, or my findings, but rather understand more than "that it works". I want to know why, how, and how to make it more efficient, cleaner, and safer to use. The goal for me is an environmentally sound device, that makes the most gas, for the least amount of applied voltage.
Chemists are busy people and rarely are "not too busy" to answer questions. This leads to months worth of reading, and private research. i have been doing this for years, and applying it to my design where I haven't seen other doing this, even though they might be. Reading up and trying to understand half reactions is enough to drive one to drink. LOL But its all part of the process that happens in these cells. The more I understand, the better I can design the cell.

Please explain...

 :o ;D


Offline Hydrogenie

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 10:20:22 PM »
What do you mean I missed something? Please explain.

To the left of carbon on the row of nickel are zinc, copper, nickel,cobalt, iron, manganese, chromium, vanadium, titanium....I don't know your criteria for choosing nickel or titanium in partner with your carbon.

Quote
Another note was titanium act like aluminum, when placed opposite of its natural state. It pulls the rectifier routine and stops production completely.

Please explain...

 :o ;D

I don't know what you mean by opposite of its natural state. Perhaps you can describe your setup.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 10:20:22 PM »
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Offline ydeardorff

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2012, 10:54:35 PM »
To the left of carbon on the row of nickel are zinc, copper, nickel,cobalt, iron, manganese, chromium, vanadium, titanium....I don't know your criteria for choosing nickel or titanium in partner with your carbon.

I don't know what you mean by opposite of its natural state. Perhaps you can describe your setup.

Carbon Naturally wants to lose or gain 4 electrons to become noble. So if we move over to the left 4 rows we land on nickel.
However nickel if it gives up 4 electrons makes an ion that is similar to that of chromium. (bad ju ju) it is a naturally poisonous metal so using it can be bad in these cells. So I looked along the same horizontal row and found that if titanium gives up 4 electrons to carbon the ions produced are similar to that of the noble gasses neon, and argon. Which would make the ions become noble in the electron configuration, which is what they want to do naturally. So by exploiting that natural tendency, The by products (ions) are safe, and stable.
This natural tendency results in a cell that naturally wants to perform better for our purposes.
Gaps are larger, heat is lower, and once I get my flow cell built Ill be able to test the production rate in LPM.
Titanium if placed in the anodes position with carbon will stop production completely like aluminum sort of like placing a large diode in an electrical system, when placed in the cathodes position is reacts very well.
I use potassium carbonate rather than more dangerous sodium hydroxide as the electrolyte isnt corrosive, and I can place my hand in the electrolyte with no problems, like placing my hand in tap water.

The end result was in my tests using 6vdc (yes higher than most people use per plate gap) but my gaps were anywhere from .080 to .100" instead of the .0625" or 1/8" like most. The bubbles were massive, and exploded with the same force as nickel.
The trick is after 30 minutes of run time the water was only a little warmer than luke warm. Raising the voltage to 12vdc resulted in a minor improvement of bubble volume, but only started heating up the cell plates.

So by using titanium and carbon the ions produced in the process seem so far to liberate more gas, at a lower heat build up rate, and at a wider plate gap. I was running about 10 to 12amps with a 6 vdc source, and 3 tea spoons of potash per gallon of room temp electrolyte (distilled water).
The ions produces are stable, non poisonous, and the reaction is more energetic than just using a mono plate type design, or other elements. i tested nickel and iron with very good results in reactivity, but unlike carbon and titanium the bubble size was small and clouded the water, whereas the C/Ti plate setup make huge bubbles.

One I get my cell assembled, Im going to run it with 2 plate gaps of about .032" and first at 3vdc per gap, then at 6vdc to see what I need to do next. Ironically closing the plate gap didnt change the amperage, it only lowered the amount of gas produced significantly. I tested the gaps down to .032" but skipped the 1/8" gap test. i didnt have any non conducting material on hand for that test.

Im hoping this will result in a smaller cell, lower voltages, and lower amperage used for the same effect. All the while making the cell safe personally, and evironmentally.

The carbon being in the anodes position keeps the electrode clean, and the precipitants, are non interfering to the cells production. They are heavier than water, but more like suspending a black ash in the water. For all I know at this point they may help the reaction as they precipitate into the electrolyte. They are very easy to clean out vie a simple sponge which could be easily placed in line in the system. Im looking for a particle separator now that could do the job.

I know some of my verbage may be off, but you get the idea. The ions that are produced are stable, the metals used are naturally more reactive to each other, allowing the plate gaps to be wider, with greater (looking) production as the bubbles are massive comparatively with no micro bubbles left in suspension, and little to if any heat build up even when 6vdc12amps is applied to one plate gap ( which is 30 percent wider than standard) for 30 minutes continuous, unlike the normal 2 or so volts typically applied.

I just got a response from a chemistry professor through email so Im deciphering the lingo, and will see if it answers anything. sometimes these professors can be more cryptic than hieroglyphics, or cuneiform writings.


So far all of my instructors, chemists, etc I have talked to think Im really onto something. which is a vote of confidence for me to continue.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 12:07:20 AM by ydeardorff »

Offline Hydrogenie

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 03:19:22 AM »
Carbon Naturally wants to lose or gain 4 electrons to become noble. So if we move over to the left 4 rows we land on nickel.
However nickel if it gives up 4 electrons makes an ion that is similar to that of chromium. (bad ju ju) it is a naturally poisonous metal so using it can be bad in these cells. So I looked along the same horizontal row and found that if titanium gives up 4 electrons to carbon the ions produced are similar to that of the noble gasses neon, and argon. Which would make the ions become noble in the electron configuration, which is what they want to do naturally. So by exploiting that natural tendency, The by products (ions) are safe, and stable.
This natural tendency results in a cell that naturally wants to perform better for our purposes.

Hm..now I get it. You are talking about electron configuration. Thank you for the explanation.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 03:19:22 AM »
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Offline ydeardorff

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 05:40:05 AM »
Some useful data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_electrode_potential_(data_page)

An important excerpt from the page link below:
Care must be taken in choosing an electrolyte, since an anion from the electrolyte is in competition with the hydroxide ions to give up an electron. An electrolyte anion with less standard electrode potential than hydroxide will be oxidized instead of the hydroxide, and no oxygen gas will be produced. A cation with a greater standard electrode potential than a hydrogen ion will be reduced in its stead, and no hydrogen gas will be produced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water#Efficiency

This caption above is the wild card I am trying to get answers to from the chemists. Even though potash is safer to use than sodium hydroxide, or potassium hydroxide, it may not be ideally suited to my electrodes. This in turn will possibly throw off the production of the gases. If you using nickle, or SS, each electrode setup could need a different electrolyte to operate at its peak efficiency. Its not about LPM, it about safe, clean, hydrogen production at the highest quality, and quantity happening together at the same time.


And to think my math teacher told me "Algebra" would save my life. She never mentioned Chemistry!

Offline ydeardorff

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 06:45:36 PM »
After some communication with a chemist, I think I have a fairly sound hypothesis for why my cell is liberating much larger bubbles than most cells that typically cloud the water, rather than releasing it freely.

Its the carbon ash released from the carbon electrode in the anodes position. This ash is commonly added to batteries to increase conductivity.  This ash is forming multiple conductive chains between the electrodes, each additionally releasing a gas atom. The combined effect adds to more gas released per square inch of electrolyte volume. So as the titanium gets seasoned, and the ash increases the cell may in fact increase its productivity. This may explain the allowance of higher gap distances, and voltage per plate gap with lower heat build up. 
This may also explain why the bubbles are larger, and don't cloud the electrolyte. The gas bubbles are being produced so close together, they are joining together allowing the gas to leave solution rather than be suspended in it.

I have also not sanded, prepped, or bead blasted the titanium surface. This is just a cut, and naked titanium plate. Once the titanium is glass bead blasted, and seasoned, I'm sure the surface area will be increased and increase the production more.

This hypothesis, would also explain why when the gaps are reduced, the production drops. With less allowance for conductive particles in between electrodes, their are less points of conductivity therefore, lower gas production.

Once I finish my cells assembly today Ill fire her up, Ill hopefully be able to test out various plate gaps, to see if what Im thinking is true.
After, some look backs on what I wrote, i realized, my gaps were less than 1/8" so I will try to be more careful in my posts in the future.
Ill be testing the cell at 1/8" through 1/4" in 1/32" intervals. If the gas production continues to climb as the gaps are increased, I'll keep going till i hit a peak and stop there.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 08:19:24 PM by ydeardorff »

Offline ydeardorff

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2012, 04:40:31 PM »
I had a minor set back yesterday. My housing plates i found out were porous, so when I filled the cell the housings leaked, not my gaskets. LOL

Ill have to find some new material to build them out of Possibly an old cutting board. Then revisit my test.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2012, 04:40:31 PM »
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Offline ydeardorff

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2012, 04:49:32 AM »
Ok, I got some results that were very interesting.

Dry cell was built, and run for over an hour. I got it to what Ive been told is the normal operating temp of about 120 -150 degrees. I noticed that my amps climbs as I predicted with the heat build up. However, on my second batch of electrolyte, I noticed that even after halving the % of potassium carbonate twice, the amps just kept climbing to just over 35 amps.

So I drained it, rinsed it out, and ran a resistance check on the electrolyte. The first batch was full strength at 3 teaspoons per gallon of distilled water., the second gallon was dilutted by half twice, by adding more straight distilled water into it. The first jug was 260 ohms on the 2000K ohm setting, the second that was halved twice, was 120 ohms.

Now I may be running off a bit on this but I think the carbon ash, like I said before is adding to the conductivity of the water making the amps climb.

So Im going to increase the number of plates, and gaps, then add a PWM to see if I can get this under control. I may only need the carbon in the water to increase the conductivity, it may very well be a safer electrolyte, and be more effective than adding salts, or strong alkali.

Total erosion on the carbon plate was about .010". Under those high amperage conditions its no doubt.

Also, the nickel side reacted more to the carbon than the titanium side (evidence was in the wear).

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 06:35:07 AM by ydeardorff »

Offline Dave1148

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2015, 07:00:39 PM »
Hi this is Dave1148,
I read your post and i am happy that at least i have found one truthful and honest person other than Mr Eric D.......
I am making some tests these days with 316ss and my results are not good to that of yours.
  However instead of using carbon for the anode ,did you tried graphite !
Regards
Dave1148
dramlogun@gmail.com
Tel: +230 57987809/57275733
 :)


Offline Topaz

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    • A review of the Bathmate
Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2015, 05:24:57 PM »
Hi this is Dave1148,
I read your post and i am happy that at least i have found one truthful and honest person other than Mr Eric D.......
I am making some tests these days with 316ss and my results are not good to that of yours.
  However instead of using carbon for the anode ,did you tried graphite !
Regards
Dave1148
dramlogun@gmail.com
Tel: +230 57987809/57275733
 :)

Graphite wont work. I've tried it. Carbon is the best solution I've found but I feel there is a better way that I'm not thinking of. What do others think can replace Carbon here.

Offline massive

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2015, 07:57:55 AM »

science keeps telling us diamond is pure carbon

crystals are used in piezo electrics


Offline sunny163

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Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2015, 09:45:57 AM »
Hello can anyone tell me that if i want to run a 100cc IC engine completely on water then how much big size hydrogen generator will be required and how much LPM will require to run completely on water without any gasoline?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2015, 09:45:57 AM »

 

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