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Author Topic: electrolysys with horizontal plates  (Read 61287 times)

Walter Hofmann

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2006, 11:49:53 AM »
Hi Walter-

 Thanks for posting the video. Hey, maybe you discovered a way of cleaning up filthy water  :D
It's interesting that the water should react different in the different setups - that deserves further investigation for sure.

 Regarding gas production differences, spacing between electrodes is of course very important and I couldn't tell if your spacing of the plates was the same or not between the two setups?

 Keep in mind that using any more than 2 volts doesn't provide any gain in gas production. For electrolysis you need a little less than 1.5 volts to start the process and gas production will increase on up to about 2 volts. After 2 volts you don't gain any in gas production and in fact you will waste a lot of energy and produce heat etc. So in your setup of say 12 volts and 12 amps you have a 144 watt unit (watt = amps x volts). You could have a 2 volt unit @ the same 12 amps and have a 24 watt unit producing the same amount of gas. Using the same amount of power you are now using (about 144 watts) you could run 6 - 2volt units and produce 6 times the amount of fuel than you are now, with the same 144 watts.

 1/2 litre of gas/min isn't enough to run your small ICE likely but it would be a nice supplemental fuel to try out for sure and see how the engine reacts to it. You can calculate the fuel required if you know the cc of the engine.

 Great fun though this experiment of yours. Its very important to show the value of different electrode design configurations and its effects on electrolysis. Keep us posted!

Best Regards,
 
Yes it is verry inetresting
i will setup a big cell ( an old jacuzy poolfilter housing) and try it with my pool water maybe I can safe all the chlorine and get clear water.
In order to realy can compare I use the same material for all components including the spacer.
I know that I need less voltage but with the intend to compare different setups it is easier with straight 12 V because to put different setups in series it does not work due to the different resistence and reaction. I could see after the cells was disconnected that they stillhold some voltage and generate bubbles way less but they do this till the voltage is below 1.3V.
Yes I know that 1/2liter would probably not be enough but I needed to start somewhere now is not probleme to add 1 or 2 more cells maybe even more.
I dont know if there is a roole of thumb for how much hydrogen per hp is needed to run a ICE not as a race horse because generators running somewhere in the midrange.
But overall I will find out over the weekend what and how it works. I will keep you guys posted.
greetings
walt

Walter Hofmann

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2006, 12:03:02 PM »
Hi all
does anybody know if somebody from the guys who test this cells did the conductivity measure?
Because all depends on the conductivity of the water I do t all the time in order to have comparable data I use a electronic TDS stick which automaticly checks the temperature and correct the TDS ( total dissolved solids) and then use a converter calculator to convert the ppm TDS in to micro siemens pro cm.
I did find out that with everythings the same the real generating process startes only at around 2,000 ppm TDS what is about 2.70mS/cm and the goes upt progressivly upt to 2,700 ppm (4.22 mS/cm).
If somebody has such data please let me know.
greetings
walt

hartiberlin

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2006, 01:26:22 PM »
Hi Walter-

 Thanks for posting the video. Hey, maybe you discovered a way of cleaning up filthy water  :D
It's interesting that the water should react different in the different setups - that deserves further investigation for sure.

 Regarding gas production differences, spacing between electrodes is of course very important and I couldn't tell if your spacing of the plates was the same or not between the two setups?

 Keep in mind that using any more than 2 volts doesn't provide any gain in gas production. For electrolysis you need a little less than 1.5 volts to start the process and gas production will increase on up to about 2 volts. After 2 volts you don't gain any in gas production and in fact you will waste a lot of energy and produce heat etc. So in your setup of say 12 volts and 12 amps you have a 144 watt unit (watt = amps x volts). You could have a 2 volt unit @ the same 12 amps and have a 24 watt unit producing the same amount of gas. Using the same amount of power you are now using (about 144 watts) you could run 6 - 2volt units and produce 6 times the amount of fuel than you are now, with the same 144 watts.

 1/2 litre of gas/min isn't enough to run your small ICE likely but it would be a nice supplemental fuel to try out for sure and see how the engine reacts to it. You can calculate the fuel required if you know the cc of the engine.

 Great fun though this experiment of yours. Its very important to show the value of different electrode design configurations and its effects on electrolysis. Keep us posted!

Best Regards,
 

I have tried also different electrolyzer setups
and switching between 6 Volts and 12 Volts DC supply
voltage gives indeed much more gas at 12 Volts,
so there is not just the additional heating, but also more
gas at 12 Volts...

pg46

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2006, 03:34:08 PM »
Hi hartiberlin-

 Yes with the identical cell setup but first using 6 volts and then going with 12 volts you will produce more gas certainly but then its drawing more amps and the cell will get hotter faster too. I was talking about efficiency as (eventually) you will want the max gas produced per amp used. Besides you'll want to avoid "amperage run away" and all of its associated problems - trust me, as I've been there and its not pretty. For an extreme example and for fun, imagine if you will hitting the same little cell with say 200 Volts- heck why not? - I've actually done it too. Boy do you produce gas! but then things are foaming, getting real hot real quick and you are now boiling out your water too producing heaps of steam and foam etc. Well, the thing quickly gets out of hand and you are soon diving for the off switch. Kinda fun though...but a little nasty. Oh...and I have exploded entire cells unintentionally too which again was kinda fun but then kinda nasty too  :o My neighbors however were not amused.
 
 Walter -

 I have a honda single cylinder 100cc 4 stroke engine. The cylinder will contain 100cc(or 0.1 lt) of gaseous mixture. It will fire every 2nd revolution as its a 4 stroke engine. If I want it to run at say 1000 rpm then I need to fire that gaseous mixture 500 times/min to achieve it. 500 X 0.1 = 50 lts of fuel mix.  So I reckon I need 50 lts of combustable fuel/air mix stuff per min to run this honda at 1000 rpm (without a load) I think mine is around a 10 HP motor but not sure.
 Maybe some of these figure(if correct) will help you figure out what you'll need for volumes for your engine project.

Also if you calculate what your engine consumes in gasoline then you'll be able to calculate what you'll require in equivelent hydrogen gas energy.


Best Regards,
 

 
 

 
 

Walter Hofmann

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2006, 11:49:52 AM »
Hi pg46,
thanks for the tip.
first in regards to 12V verses 2 V I try this version and with the same setup on plates and water it showed that the 12V version brought about 5 times more gas output and the temperature was after one hour rissen to 85 degree F what is actually a normal operating temperature and I mean 5 times more output is something to think about. I personally dont care about amperage efficiency because i use a carbatterie which is charged from the generator during low time. The other point is that a temp of 85 degree makes it easier to generate the gas with other words is a winn winn situation. You are right it needs to be watch not to have a runn a way. this can be avoided with a tempreture sensor whicch shuts off the cell and switches back on. thats why I wana try a three cell parallel setup where the cell can be switched on and off on demand or like temperature.
For this reason it was exiting to see how the horizontal mesh unit performed from the start up creating the bubbles like a explosion and after first tests the temperature was much cooler then with any other version I would say about 20 to 30 degrees cooler.
 Now I did a test on the fly with 2 inch diameter carbon disc 2 of them with a 1.5mm distance and I tell you the effect was a total disapointment first there was no bubbles coming from the surface only the edges brought some up and seams to be not a fraction of the mesh unit further the amperage draw was only 1A only after I increased the conductivity to over 4,000 ppm TDS it draw 2 A. I will test this a bit further I also will do a test with a SS sheat disc horizontal version to see how this performs.
Over the weekend I post a couple small vid about this tests.
greetings
walt

pg46

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2006, 09:01:14 PM »
Hey Walter-

 
 Yeah sure, go ahead and use your convenient 12 volts, why not? It seems the most practical for the moment.
 Looking forward to hearing more about your experiments.

All the best,

Walter Hofmann

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2006, 10:44:44 PM »
Hi all,
here are a video with solid horizontal plates like it shows the bubble output is just a fraction again, but was is amazing that the first time I could exactly define where the bubbles are build and to my surprise it was not build on the top surface , it comes from the undersite of the negative plate.I will also post a few more vid from other comparisson tests.
greetings
walt

Walter Hofmann

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2006, 10:56:07 PM »
Hi all
here is a vid from a test with a graphite disc cell in comparisson to a solid SS disc cell. The output with the graphite is even less then with the solid cell and the bubbles here are only build on the edges.
walt
it does not work to post the vid due to time out I will send it to stefan that he please post it.
walt

Walter Hofmann

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2006, 10:59:21 PM »
hi,
here is a vid from a test with graphite cell vertical, here again shows bubbles coming just from the edges but much more then in horizontal. It appears that the position of the cells dpends on the material used for the disc.
walt

Walter Hofmann

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2006, 11:10:39 PM »
Hi,
here is a vid comparrisson from a cylinder to a solid disc as can be seen the bubbles just coming from the top and side edges of the cylinder.
walt

pg46

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2006, 06:02:55 AM »
Hi Walter-
 
 Interesting experiments you have happening there.
In solid plate setups as you've already demonstrated, you'll get more gas action with the plates in verticle configurations simply because the bubbles can be freed from the plate more easily and rise to the surface. When the plates are horizontal its pretty tough for the bubbles to escape.

 Regarding your horizontal solid plates and bubbles only forming on one side of underneath the negative plates - well, thats what they are supposed to do in that particular setup. The side with all the bubbles is facing the positive electrode so all of the action is happening there. If you were to hook a bunch of plates in series(-+-+-+ etc) and the spacing was equal between them, you'd find gas production happening on both sides of the plates, (excepting the 2 outside electrodes on either end where there would be gas happening on only one side)
 Keep up the good work. :)

Best Regards,
 
 
 

Walter Hofmann

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2006, 10:51:55 AM »
hi pg46,
what I did wana demonstrate is that the previous shown vid with the horizontal mesh version, what is in material and size identical, there is a explosion of bubbles right from the start and it generates way more gass then any solid version.
with the series plates in vertical I have to disagree I'f ben there and the results was far less gass then with the horizontal mesh version. Also the mesh version did not bring up any colored slime like with all the other versions. What matters extremly is the difference in size compared to the gass output where the horizontal mesh version needs only about 33% of the size for more gass output.
In all my experiements I could not find that the bubbles was build on both sides the positive side brought allways just a few bubbles I believe thats the oxigen part what builds there.
All this experiements was done to find out the version with the highest output and I have to say now itis the horizontal mesh version where I wana go with and will put more mesh plates now ( it was just three before) in one cell to see if and how much higher the output would be.
greetings
walt

pg46

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2006, 01:28:08 PM »
Hey There Walter-

 Your working with the screen for plates idea surely has some merit as design and materials of the plates is very very important.
 This fellow over here at the site below has clearly demonstrated this with his experiments-
http://www.stifflerscientific.com/electrodes.html

 You may gain some considerable insights from following some of what the fellows over at www.oupower.com are doing as there are some electrolysis cell master builders that contribute to that forum.

I'll send you a pm

All the best,

wizkycho

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2006, 02:29:51 PM »
I think I can explain this promising results that Walter Hoffman showed us.

Why visible bubbles are created only at the top of vertical setup and why the production is smaller
when compared with horizontal setup ?

To produce efficient electrolysis it is a must to make +- plates as close as they can be (still not touching each other) in order to lower down resistance of the whole unit at the first place. Since plates must be very close
and if positioned vertical - invisible small bubbles are created on every point of the reaction surface but bubbles
created at very bottom are free to go from left to right plate (which are very close) and have much chance
for recombination back into water cause they have source of free electrons and positively charged ions. (H2O molecule is much stable than H2 and O2).

If horizontal setup is used bubbles (which can only go up) can only ONCE hit (if even that) electrod of opposed polarity and recombine into water or not.

So the path of releasing gas in horizontal setup is much much shorter and has only one homopolar exit making
recombination into water again rarely occuring.

To make horizontal more efficient (more dense) by design I propose this setup (on pic attached).
(even better if made slightly but only slightly concave - to U shaped)

Water in vertical setup comes dirty because of long path of reaction and bipolar environment cause inpurities in water (minerals and etc.) to make large molecules (visible as green redish slime). Cause of that water at the bottom of vertical cell becomes less ocupied with minerals ions which in return lowers conductivity of water... (when reaction is stoped after some long period of inactiviti of the cell some of this molecules are again melted in water and water gets little clearer.)
In horizontal setup complex large molecules can not be created cause reaction path is short and homopolar leaving water visualy clean and at the same state of conduction which is good property for prolonged work of the device and mesh plates uniformly distributes current through the whole its lenght.

As heating is concerned, folks !

Heating in electrolysis occures much only if the density of the current is high. density of the curent is high
if current is high and diamter or thickness is low. So more material (stainless steel) less heat for same current.

best regards !

Igor Knitel

Let's make it horizontal then. Even with common ss plates (not mesh type) results must be better.
If using common ss plates thin plastic sheet is left out.



hartiberlin

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Re: electrolysys with horizontal plates
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2006, 06:20:31 PM »
Here  is another movie from Walter.