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Author Topic: LENR Roundup  (Read 13642 times)

Offline fritz

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LENR Roundup
« on: February 13, 2012, 09:22:12 PM »
Dear All,

Due to the actual hype on LENR and related technologies in this area, I´d like to start a thread analyzing the situation and discussing setups for replications.

Somehow I have the feeling that quite a few 2nd order violations or similar might be based on effects covered by LENR.

Let´s start with some analysis on Rossi´s work.

He harvests some exothermal effect emitted by a capsule filled with nickel and some secret stuff.
Additional he adds hydrogen or uses material which releases hydrogen.

To start this exothermal effect, he needs some initial energy which is fed by means of a resistive heating element. On exceeding this initial temperature, he gets an increasing cop which even enables "self sustained mode".

I would interpret that as that he can turn off the resistive element.

In his test setups, the typical approach is to derive the released energy by the amount of water converted to steam. So its obvious that the initial temperature involved is above water boiling point.

The effect somehow looks to be of the "avalanche" type - so after exceeding certain temperature - a steady increase in released energy is obvious.
Interesting that he explains the test-run of his 1MW plant limited to just 500kW because of "self sustaining mode".

It might be quite difficult to control that effect.
A serious point might be the thermal capacity of the setup.
By having a steady flow of medium he can increase that thermal capacity.
If the reactor starts to exceed the  rated performance he can cool it down by increasing the flow of the medium.

As long as he is controlling the effect by means of resistive pre-heating with reasonable but lower cop - it might be easier to control the effect.
If he wants to go self-sustained - the only way to control it would be the amount of energy transfered by the medium.
So this would mean that  he would need more flow control and more efficient heat exchangers to control such device self-sustained.

What do you think ?

rgds.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

LENR Roundup
« on: February 13, 2012, 09:22:12 PM »

Offline fritz

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 09:44:54 PM »
LENR and Keely

Maybe a correlation of LENR and Keely might sound not too obvious...
Rossi claims to use some sort of rf which helps to break down coulomb barrier;
other claimed to use sonic waves (sono-luminescence)
Later Keely theories claimed that almost any matter can be manipulated by means of acoustic waves.

Looking at his machines, Keely had definitely some metallurgical background.
Maybe he stumbled on some kind of transmutations doing his experiments and founded his theory on these effects.

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Offline teslaalset

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 10:01:35 PM »
The effect somehow looks to be of the "avalanche" type - so after exceeding certain temperature - a steady increase in released energy is obvious.
Interesting that he explains the test-run of his 1MW plant limited to just 500kW because of "self sustaining mode".

It might be quite difficult to control that effect.
A serious point might be the thermal capacity of the setup.
By having a steady flow of medium he can increase that thermal capacity.
If the reactor starts to exceed the  rated performance he can cool it down by increasing the flow of the medium.

As long as he is controlling the effect by means of resistive pre-heating with reasonable but lower cop - it might be easier to control the effect.
If he wants to go self-sustained - the only way to control it would be the amount of energy transfered by the medium.
So this would mean that  he would need more flow control and more efficient heat exchangers to control such device self-sustained.

What do you think ?

In my view the thermal effect is definitely an avalanche type.
This means that to control the process and avoid melting of the Ni powder a few options are to be considered:

1) Selfsustaining: the thermal capacity of a complete system is such that during too high heat production the cooling of the core is increased by increasing the (re)circulation of the cooling water, e.g. by increasing the pump rpm. This should be done such that the temperature of the core does not decrease too much as this will shut down the heat production process. Disadvantage of this option is that in case of a power failure, the core will melt due to a lack of cooling.

2) Heat biasing: A permanent electrical heating is present (by an electrical powered heating element) during heat generation of the actual LENR process. As soon as the temperature of the core get too hot the bias heating is reduced. If temperature drops too low, bias heating is increased (also used for starting up the process). This allows simple control and easy shut down of the system: simply shut down the heat biasing. It seems that the Hyperion of Defkalion uses a pulsed modulated biasing method.
When designed with adequate dimensions, this method allows a LENR process that can prevent a core melt down in case of a power failure.

In my view, for safety and robustness reasons, Rossi uses option 2).
Disadvantage is that there is a permanent electrical power required to keep the ecats running and this lowers the COP.
Rossi indicates that the home ecats have a COP>6, hinting at using permanent electrical energy to control the ecats.

Offline fritz

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 03:58:33 PM »
In my view, for safety and robustness reasons, Rossi uses option 2).
Disadvantage is that there is a permanent electrical power required to keep the ecats running and this lowers the COP.
Rossi indicates that the home ecats have a COP>6, hinting at using permanent electrical energy to control the ecats.

It would be interesting if its even possible to harvest that effect with pretty low thermal capacity and pulsed inductive or rf heating.
Those "avalanche type" effects in combination with high thermal capacity are not too fun to experiment with.

Another open point for me is if the heat is transfered from the heated powder - or if the heated powder radiates somewhat secondary into the enclosure....

rgds.


Offline profitis

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2015, 06:09:17 AM »
Definitely uni-directional a)biased micro and macro cyclic gas flow currents going on inside powders at incredible speeds and b)uni-directional biased transfers of heat going on from ambient aswell as heating element

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2015, 06:09:17 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline sparks

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  This reporter is on top of LENR research.  NASA is hopping on the bandwagon also.   Basically transmutation of stable elements to stable elements with access to the weak nuclear force doing the work.  Take atmospheric carbon dioxide and change it to nitrogen and oxygen.  The process is not fusion.  Though I believe it is the power supply for some of the unexplained gamma and antimatter generated in lightning storms.   Basically results from electron avalanches made possible by introduction of ionizing radiation into a stressed dielectric.  The electric field is responsible for the triggered electron avalanche just like gravity is responsible for snow avalanches.  The avalanche creates a dense accelerated negative plasma that slams into neutral stuff like water vapor=carbon dioxide=nitrogen that cause low energy nuclear reactions in the open atomosphere.  Just like lenr in the labs a small percentage are fusion reactions yielding gamma and antimatter but the bulk are just weak nuclear reactions. 
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/WLTheory.shtml#summary

















Offline ramset

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2015, 01:59:47 PM »
Sparks
Thank you for the wonderful link
The possibilities boggle the mind.


Chet

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2015, 01:59:47 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Rigel4

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2015, 05:38:24 PM »
Here is a link to download many current (and past) papers on LENR.
Take a look, it's free as in beer.

While I follow this topic, I have no faith in Mr. Rossi's  version of scientific method.
Handling the ash is a big no no. And probably the reason that replications are failing.
For myself the issue with the coulomb barrier is the primary problem that I see. I can accept some of the reasoning on the lack of radiation.

http://www.currentscience.ac.in/php/toc.php?vol=108&issue=04
They are in pdf format, the link may go away though. (It worked today)

Offline profitis

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2015, 08:23:22 PM »
All lenr is just a stressed thermodynamic hysteresis loop.the universe looks for the only way out of the loop and that is to collapse atomic matter within the loop.collapse it to the ground state,collapse it to the same extent that the hysterisis demands.extent of hysterisis=extent and rate of atomic decay to lower entropy states.let it be known that I'm the first guy in history to put this generalized mathmatical proportionality forward.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2015, 09:00:07 PM »
You aren't the first guy in history to be wrong, though.

You aren't even the first guy on this forum, today, to be wrong.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2015, 09:00:07 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline profitis

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2015, 10:59:07 PM »
Tinselkoala:'You aren't the first guy in history to be wrong, though.
You aren't even the first guy on this forum, today, to be wrong.'

Now wouldn't it be curtious to let us know exactly where I'm wrong.right?  you won't be able to point that out..

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2015, 12:56:08 AM »
Tinselkoala:'You aren't the first guy in history to be wrong, though.
You aren't even the first guy on this forum, today, to be wrong.'

Now wouldn't it be curtious to let us know exactly where I'm wrong.right?  you won't be able to point that out..

Quote
All lenr is just a stressed thermodynamic hysteresis loop.the universe looks for the only way out of the loop and that is to collapse atomic matter within the loop.collapse it to the ground state,collapse it to the same extent that the hysterisis demands.extent of hysterisis=extent and rate of atomic decay to lower entropy states.let it be known that I'm the first guy in history to put this generalized mathmatical proportionality forward.

Hyperbolic reluctance factors exacerbate resolution of time-scale nanostructures. You can combine eigenvalues and by discriminating the intensity-variant scaling factors, arrive at a rigorous derivation of magnetostriction harmonics. The nth harmonic always integrates to the square root of e. Within this general formula, particular statements of exact values of various variables can be calculated, including the extent of hysteresis. Therefore the lowest entropy state available is null. And I'm the first guy in history to put forth this generalized proof that you are pretty much just blowing smoke.
   


Offline profitis

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2015, 02:48:43 AM »
Tinselkoala:'including the extent of hysteresis.'

Not for a negentropic hyseresis no.a negentropic hysteresis(a hysteresis that decreases entropy)  will seek to increase entropy wherever it can(naturaly) and if the only avenue is atomic collapse then so it happens.the critical point where the hysteresis reaches such a degree that it triggers atomic collapse or atomic fusion is going to be known as the 'profitis point'.another first in history

Offline sparks

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2015, 09:22:41 PM »
     Say we take an element and catalyze an electron capture or k-capture.   Proton rest mass plus captured electron rest mass does not equal the rest mass of the neutron.   Where does the mass/energy come from in a neutron synthesis.  My thoughts are that the electrons in the k orbitals move at a large fraction of the speed of light.  When one of these particles gets bumped towards the nucleus by an electrmagnetic force it's relativistic mass equals the missing mass.  So a neutron is basically a proton with a big electron sharing the same space.
Theoretically one electron accelerated to the speed of light would account for the entire mass of the observable universe.   It really doesn't have to be going that fast but the velocity in the k orbital appears to be enough to provide the mass differential.  The "newtron"  can then decay within the newly formed element yielding beta  (fast electron) and a neutrino.  You also get a number of hf photons as electrons make various orbital leaps in the new atom.   Again we see that the mass of the electron in an outer orbital is more than that of an inner orbital.  The photon radiated is the equivalent of the change in velocity of the electron.  In a cavity that excludes the electron cloud a neutron decay event will not be impeded by a bunch of electron collisions.   This increases the probability for electron capture in a second atom.  In the case of deuterium an e capture would result in two neutrons.  The bulk of the deuterium is in a common inertial frame determined by the frequency of the pulses supplied to the cathode.  Now you have the chance of a k capture resulting in two neutrons.  The neutrons decay into protons forming fully ionized helium.  The beta current is doubled which increases the chances of more electron capture.  Each deuterium atom converted to helium beta and a neutrino.  This happens until the beta finally reaches the exit of the microchannel where it looses it's momentum to the space charge outside the cathode itself.  The inelastic collisions result in various wavelength photons which are absorbed by the bulk fluid and anamalous heating effects are the order of the day. This process would require the transmutation of a "seed" element to produce the trigger beta current.  I seriously doubt there is any fusion going on in any cold fusion devices.  I have no idea as to how a light water reactor could possibly work as there isn't any neutron fuel to speak of.

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Offline MarkE

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Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2015, 11:56:56 PM »
Well, a couple of problems that you have there is that you are relying on the Bohr model for the idea of electrons as satellites of the nucleus, and electrons that have eating disorders.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: LENR Roundup
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2015, 11:56:56 PM »

 

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