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Author Topic: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion  (Read 10454 times)

Offline F_Brown

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The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« on: December 16, 2011, 07:04:45 AM »
Hi All,

I just wrote a paper explaining mathematically with Newtonian physics the basic operating principles of centrifugal propulsion.  In this paper I address two things:  One, how to maximize the thrust output of the system; and two, how to maximize the efficiency of the system.

During the course of modeling the operation of the system with GNU Octave, a mostly MATLAB compatible numerical app, I noticed that when the efficiency of the drive motor and regenerative brake use in the system is set for 97% or higher, a figure that is on the edge of the ability of modern devices, the thrust to power ratio of system exceeds 1.0. 

That is to say, that the energy equivalent of the thrust output of the system exceeds the input power minus the power recovered by the regenerative brake.   Although there is an absence of any excess electrical power found in the the system, it seems that it might be possible to generate thrust with a coefficient of operation of greater than one as far as the thrust to power ratio is concerned.

Here's is a preview copy of my paper for the interested to peruse, which includes the Octave script I wrote for modeling the system and calculating the energy efficiency.

All comments are welcome.

Best regards,

frederick brown
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Cherryman

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Re: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2011, 09:27:23 AM »
Hi, you made a nice paper, and with some nice math.

I would suggest however to extend it with a few drawings, it will help the people understand it better, it looks better and..  It helps in solving bottlenecks.

Second:  If you bring the rotating mass to a sudden stop (which is not that hard)  you will have to bring the same mass up to speed again, almost instantly.  Of course you could use a flywheel, and brake regenerating as mentioned. 

But I would be nice to see a (conceptual)  drawing, instead of a circle with an arrow ;-)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 11:14:52 AM by Cherryman »


Offline F_Brown

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Re: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2011, 11:06:09 AM »
Good idea, some more pictures.  The radial velocity smoothly varies in a sine wave manner oscillating between 0 and the maximum.  I could add a graph of that, along with graphs of the thrust produced in the various perspectives etc. 

I did include the octave script which has a lot plot statements so that people could examine all that although perhaps I over presumed thinking that everybody who  would read the paper would have or know how to use Octave/MATLAB.

Thank you for your reply.  I've been getting some good feedback from  my reviewers, and I will soon be rewriting to incorporate a lot of improvements.

Best regards,

fred

Offline Cherryman

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Re: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 11:12:27 AM »
Hi Fred,

Yes a few pictures can save the day.

It would be even better if you can also make a drawing of how such a thing would look and connect to the drive train.   You have obviously been working on this for a while, but many people new to "your" system.. and not a math genius will skip it.

Doesn't have to be a Rembrandt, but to grasp the general idear.

Cheers.

Edit: I added as an example a thumbnail of a "one fits all Bicycle regenerator with flywheel and CVT " 


Offline Hithereterry

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Re: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 08:42:43 PM »
Dear Frederick Brown,

I have read your paper on centrifugal propulsion and I am pleased to see you have taken the trouble to do some of the math.

I have been looking into this method of propulsion on and off now for more than 30 years.   I was discussing it with my son over the Xmas holidays.  He is in his final year of engineering at a local university this past Xmas. At first he didn't sense that the concept would work - but after looking at some of the demos on You Tube, he now agrees at least in theory it should work.   I will  send him a copy of your paper to help re-enforce the discussion he and I had on the topic.

I especially like your efficiency estimates, especially using the energy generated on the braking side.  Although I'm sure in reality there to be considerable energy losses along the way, it still makes the point.  It has always made sense to me to capture this energy and use it.

If I may be permitted I would like to share an idea my son came up with in terms of engine unit design.  Cody's idea is that the concept of a single rotating mass simply doesn't work very well as everything is very unstable.  It is rather like a single piston gas engine running at a very slow speed.  In that case the power output on the rotating shaft ends up being very uneven.  Engine solution - well of course - add more cylinders.  Cody has suggested that each spinning mass might be viewed (from a concept perspective) as a special kind of platter. Like pistons in a gas engine, numerous platters need to be used in a centrifugal propulsion engine.  Somewhat akin (again just conceptually) to the spinning platters found in hard disk drives - but with a much greater size, and greater mass (i.e. including magnetic coil) on one side of each platter, yet all platters sharing a common central fixed power shaft, connected to whatever object or craft needs propulsion.  So in the case of centrifugal propulsion - you end up with a series of rotating mass platters. From 4 to 6 to 12, or a hundred. All spinning at the same speeds, but with six of twelve at various points in accelerating cycles, and the other six a varying points in de-accelerating cycles.   Suddenly two very nice things result.  First ancillary vibration in the engine as a whole drops dramatically.  Which if you haven't already thought of it is a good thing in terms of design.   Secondly...  the electrical output created from braking on a particular decelerating platter cycle can be used to at least partially power an acceleration cycle on a related platter. 

Anyway... I expect you can follow the concepts here well enough.

I am curious to hear how your efforts are progressing, and in particular to know if you have actually created any prototypes to this point.

Best Regards,

Terry

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 08:42:43 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 09:24:54 PM »
Centrifugal forces are interesting. I look forward to see more of this idea.


Vidar

Offline hdeasy

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Re: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2017, 09:55:18 AM »
Hi - I also found Frederick's paper interesting. I have done one myself and have started to construct some devices. The first (mark 1) was just a car which was more slip and stick.  Mark 2 was an attempt with something like Steven Hampton's system ( http://www.inertialpropulsion.com/impulse_engine.htm ). That actually was airborne for almost 1 second. But to do that I needed 95 N as the rig weighed over 9kg. This happened to be the absolute max for the system before vibrations cause damage that broke it. This is what happened. But I have some videos that show it actually lifting off by 1 to 2 cm off the ground for that fraction of a second.
As I'm unemployed I need to see a financial return so I won't open source the detalis just yet.
Mark 3 is under construction. It should be smoother and more efficient than 2. I'm just posting a video of Mark 1 to give the idea.
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=QE7BXLHUMXc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2017, 09:55:18 AM »
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Offline vince

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Re: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2017, 04:39:40 PM »
That mark 1 video that you refer to was my proof of concept of a topic regarding double pendulums and centrifugal torque multiplication that was started several years ago by nby torque.  i made several versions of that experiment but that was the last one.  it proved to me that the output from the one way bearing did not affect the input current to the drive motor. I had bought some supplies to build a better inline version of that design with one way bearings that harvested both sides of the centrifugal oscilations but never got back to it.

Offline hdeasy

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Re: The Operating Principle of Centrifugal Propulsion
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2017, 08:49:14 PM »
I measured the pulling force of this. It was about 0.35 N. The input energy, assuming rotation KE renewed once per rev, was about 0.07 W. That's about 5N/W.  That would be optimal for a perfect motor. As 70% efficiency likely, let's say 3.5N /W.

I would have developed this myself but decided to go ahead for something truly reaction-less. I.e. anti-gravity. Almost there and my energy only extends to that.

 

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