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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 914303 times)

profitis

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1305 on: August 06, 2014, 12:23:25 PM »
Its a throbbing hot-cold cycle in this case @tinselkoala you should not be able to detect a net coldspot if the probe is shoved in the middle of the thing.you should be able to detect heat going OUT(friction,battery losses) not heat going IN. I think nul is just pointing something out as opposed to attempting proof of anything.I suggest an oil bath for the entire core here,just the 2 wires emerging.current musnt be too much otherwise frictional heating will overtake ambient inlet

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1306 on: August 06, 2014, 06:41:50 PM »

@ profitis:  thanks for the suggestions re. alternative core material(s) - not quite so easy for me on this setup as the toroid is providing transformer action in pumping charge back to source (in addition to  reclaiming coil-field collapse energy and cross-feeding that from each circuit to the other's battery.

i may have a sintered-iron toroidal core somewhere, on which i could wind a transformer - i'll try & locate that

a nichrome air-cored toroid coil *may* be feasible if i drop the forward-pulse aspect of the circuit - i'm reluctant to vary the circuit config. too much at this stage, but i may try this later


TK>>> "The last time I saw fluctuations like that in temperature data they were eventually tracked down to two causes: the building's AC cycling on and off, and cleaning staff opening and closing the door into the laboratory"


lol - this is lil' ol' england - no AC here!

maybe you missed the section where i referred to the ambient temperature profile?

(and also how i normalised the probe data against the ambient readings)


profitis>>>"Its a throbbing hot-cold cycle in this case @tinselkoala you should not be able to detect a net coldspot if the probe is shoved in the middle of the thing.you should be able to detect heat going OUT(friction,battery losses) not heat going IN. I think nul is just pointing something out as opposed to attempting proof of anything.I suggest an oil bath for the entire core here,just the 2 wires emerging.current musnt be too much otherwise frictional heating will overtake ambient inlet"

spot-on, profitis - in any previous temperature logging of my coils i've always measured a rise in temperature - the interesting results here, for me, are the temperature drop (small, but measurable) and the cyclic element of the data - perhaps particularly the frequency modulation seen with change in probe location

i'm also thinking now about possibilities for isolating/containing any interesting effect

thanks all
np


nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1307 on: August 07, 2014, 05:42:34 PM »
@ profitis:

as a quick comparison with another inductor type, i made a new transformer with a couple of windings on a tubular ferrite core (approx 25mm - or 1" - long, by approx 12mm - or 0.5" - ext diam.,  inner hole diam approx 6mm)

i replaced the toroid transformer used for the previous data readings with this new tubular cored transformer (with solenoidal windings) and repeated the test

this latest data represents temperature readings away from the core, then inside the core tube, then finally away from the core again - each period being approximately 15 minutes, samples logged at 5 second intervals

i've filtered the probe temperature readings with a rolling 7-point window (as opposed to a 5-point filter in the previous data) to try and focus on the average/trend of the temperature more

the data from this test, using a tubular ferrite core with solenoidal windings, shows a more consistent temperature inside and outside the ferrite core (after the settling-in slope)

i've thought of another test to try with the original toroidal transformer, so i'll get some data from that & post  when ready

cheers
np
 

TinselKoala

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1308 on: August 07, 2014, 06:17:14 PM »
Well... now your measurements are better and the temperature fluctuation range is about 0.2 degree C. It's really too bad your effect size isn't larger, seriously. And with your sampling system it's hard for me to see how to combine data from multiple runs to average out the noise and improve S/N. I'm thinking about it though. What might be a bit more convincing would be if you could show a change in overall slope while under power and while not. Presumably the thing should cool down below ambient when running and warm toward ambient when not, with some slight delay or hysteresis in both directions, right? So an hour on, an hour off, or maybe two hour periods off and on for a long day, then careful examination of the average slopes, fit by some curve fitting function, comparing the two conditions looking for a change in slope and also just where it changes. If it changes instantly when the power is applied, that's probably  not good. If there's a delay, then an increasingly negative slope when power turns on, that's better. 
Am I making sense?  The issue now is the "chunkiness" of the data, like what is the vertical resolution when you are down in that tenth-of-a-degree range? Is it fine enough to detect the kinds of slope effects I'm talking about? From the looks of your graphs it might not be. So there may be some way to improve the vertical resolution of the temperature data.

MarkE

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1309 on: August 07, 2014, 08:18:23 PM »
I wonder what the noise floor is with the sensors shorted.

profitis

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1310 on: August 07, 2014, 11:43:53 PM »
Exellent @nul.this line of research is the line that could really lead to success.this goes straight to the heart of the whole friggin continuum of electromagneto overunity hunting,the core,,,,the core.it is here where a second law discrepency must take place in order for any such circuits to be successful.I want to suggest you focus on the simplest of circuits,the coiled bar electromagnet with 2 wires emerging and dc pulsed.play with as much variation of this as you can until you get to the greatest disparities in temp.when you've got your list of greatest disparities its time for the oil bath. 

profitis

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1311 on: August 07, 2014, 11:51:46 PM »
Play with number of coil turns,core material(nickel,iron,ferrite,gadolinium,chromium dioxide,manganese dioxide etc etc),indeed I would love to see what the classic gadolinium's result will be.play with thick wire,thin wire,nichrome,constitan,iron wire etc. Play with lots of turns instead of few turns.

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1312 on: August 09, 2014, 09:20:27 PM »
 
I ought to mention that these temperature readings above are riding on the back of other ongoing long-term tests – the other temperature test I mentioned above that I have in mind involves transitioning between the power-on and power-off state of the circuits, and I won't be in a position to do that for some while now, having just swapped out one toroid-cored transformer for a solenoidal-cored one and restarted my main test
 
obviously the observed temperature-drop effect is taking the measurement values down towards the noise-floor of the datalogging system, but changes in the temperature trends can still be discerned
 
whilst waiting for my main test to complete, i've been able to use a digital thermometer/probe with a Fahrenheit scale to compare the temperature inside the central gap of the solenoidal-cored transformer with the temperature outside and away from the transformer (approx 15cms, or 6”)

my first impressions from the 2nd graph data above (for the solenoidal-cored transformer) were that there was likely no temperature-drop effect with this particular core

using the Fahrenheit thermometer/probe, however, it appears that the effect is also occurring with this core too, although at a smaller level – more than a dozen comparisons have reliably produced a 0.2 degF change in the temperature readout within approx 30s of changing the probe location between internal and external to the core (ie. the temperature reading, internal to the core, is consistently 0.2 degF lower than the external reading)

when I get to a convenient break in my main testing, i'll focus on the temperature drop effect and try  out a few ideas to improve indications and start to try and identify the key conditions

cheers
np
 

MarkE

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1313 on: August 10, 2014, 12:13:45 AM »
 
I ought to mention that these temperature readings above are riding on the back of other ongoing long-term tests – the other temperature test I mentioned above that I have in mind involves transitioning between the power-on and power-off state of the circuits, and I won't be in a position to do that for some while now, having just swapped out one toroid-cored transformer for a solenoidal-cored one and restarted my main test
 
obviously the observed temperature-drop effect is taking the measurement values down towards the noise-floor of the datalogging system, but changes in the temperature trends can still be discerned
 
whilst waiting for my main test to complete, i've been able to use a digital thermometer/probe with a Fahrenheit scale to compare the temperature inside the central gap of the solenoidal-cored transformer with the temperature outside and away from the transformer (approx 15cms, or 6”)

my first impressions from the 2nd graph data above (for the solenoidal-cored transformer) were that there was likely no temperature-drop effect with this particular core

using the Fahrenheit thermometer/probe, however, it appears that the effect is also occurring with this core too, although at a smaller level – more than a dozen comparisons have reliably produced a 0.2 degF change in the temperature readout within approx 30s of changing the probe location between internal and external to the core (ie. the temperature reading, internal to the core, is consistently 0.2 degF lower than the external reading)

when I get to a convenient break in my main testing, i'll focus on the temperature drop effect and try  out a few ideas to improve indications and start to try and identify the key conditions

cheers
np
If you have stable and accurate current and voltage sensing, then you can use the coil wires themselves as a resistance thermometer.

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1314 on: August 10, 2014, 02:31:52 AM »

genius!!   ...why didn't i think of that?!?    :'(

TinselKoala

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1315 on: August 10, 2014, 09:51:21 AM »
Ah... if your data is dealing with deltas of 0.2 degrees F... that kind of difference can be caused by tiny air currents or even ambient illumination from room lighting. I don't know the precise physical details of your setup, obviously, but we are down in the realm where experimental controls to rule out thermal artifacts become very difficult to implement properly. Would it be too much to suggest that you buy a couple of nesting styrofoam ice chests and make a nice "calorimetry qualified" enclosure for your future thermal measurements?

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1316 on: August 10, 2014, 11:53:46 AM »
 
lol - you'll have to come up with something more exotic than 'tiny air currents', TK!!

as i mentioned in a post above, the 0.2 degF temperature drop only relates to the new core (solenoidal) - the original toroidal core has produced approx 0.7 degF drop

when taking spot readings at night, i'm either using a flashlight in the unlit room - or only switching on light (low-wattage, cold-cathode fl. tube) for a few seconds whilst making next reading/change probe location -  - probe temperature allowed to settle for between 10-30 mins - i vacate room asap, to avoid adding body heat

device-under-test is in an enclosed region within a reasonably well-sealed, unheated room

the temperature deltas seem reasonably consistent regardless of day/night/ambient conditions

i will undoubtedly take more account of thermal isolation when i finish my other tests and start to focus instead on this temperature issue, but i will be leaving any more thorough treatment to those who are better equipped, with equipment, time, money and experience

no scientists are queing up to do my job for me, and i don't presume to do theirs - but we can all help in the process in a small way by calling out when we find something interesting

unless we get our kicks in some other way!

cheers
np


MarkE

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1317 on: August 11, 2014, 03:01:21 AM »
One thing that would be nice would be if you would publish a null run measurement just to establish your noise baseline.

TinselKoala

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1318 on: August 11, 2014, 05:18:22 AM »
While you may have eliminated the tiny air currents by your setup... good job so far by the way, usually I do not see or expect such care taken... there are still many other sources of artifact that might account for your near-noise-level data fluctuations.
One that has me very concerned with my own temperature measurements is the issue of thermocouple/instrumentation amp response sensitivity to ambient EM RF or even static magnetic or electric fields. It is a pain in the butt and is hard to track down. Readings may seem stable but are subtly off accuracy, or precision suffers, or total garbage comes from the probes. The fact that this can happen even when the source of the disturbing field is "off" or powered down is an incredibly frustrating feature of this kind of artifact in sensitive instrumentation operating near the noise floor.
It is in these situations especially that our own observer biases start having profound effects. We see fluctuating readings or we realize that some trials are garbage so we discard them. But we are more likely to discard trials or noisy data that don't support our hypotheses and keep trials that do, and this is completely unconscious on our part.
Paraphrasing Richard Feynman, the easiest person to fool is ourselves.
Or was that Pogo...
 ;)

nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #1319 on: August 11, 2014, 06:18:38 AM »

i'm planning to check at work this week if i have a suitable value, hi-precision, low-noise resistor which i can substitute for the probe on the data-logger

i don't have any info about the input circuitry of the temperature channel and i'm not about to assume that i can safely short its input terminals just so that i can profile the noise-floor component of the datalogger for these informal observations

gentlemen - your interest is appreciated - your comments and suggestions are appropriate and relevant if and when any effect which i may be observing now is taken to the next level of serious inspection and measurement

any such more-controlled level of investigation won't be undertaken by someone with my level of resources - i shall be somewhere else, playing bass, accompanied by Dick (Feynman, RIP) on bongos - or is that on Pogos?

cheers
np