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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 611692 times)

Offline JouleSeeker

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PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« on: May 20, 2011, 05:21:55 AM »
Mostly I post at OUResearch, for the last several months, would like to call attention to new thread there on my bench (PhysicsProf -- emeritus Professor of Physics, strong electronics background).

I invite replications  -- and terse/technical comments only, please.

I enjoy this forum and the enthusiasm.  I developed a straightforward 1-transistor circuit -- build is fun, rather easy, and solid-state.  Enjoy.

Good results so far; see:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=853.msg14112#msg14112
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 05:56:56 PM by hartiberlin »

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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2011, 02:47:52 AM »
  To entice you with a little data -- see attached schematic for the sj1 device and DATA from a Tek 3032B which shows the input power (left, red waveform) and output power (right red waveform).
Pin ~ 10 mW ,          Pout ~ 79 mW    per the MATH on the Tek 3032.  (Mean V(t)*I(t)).
You can do the math from there ;).

  For more info, ask, or go over to the OUResearch.com forum (link in post#1 above).

Would like to see someone replicate and test this puppy!  No magnets to buy or bearings...


PS -- I spoke to Carmen Muller of Muller Power Co. today.  Found her articulate and sharp.  I think she ended up asking me more questions than I asked her...  good conversation.  Busy person these days.  (Both of us actually.) 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 05:55:05 PM by hartiberlin »

Offline k4zep

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2011, 04:34:25 PM »
  To entice you with a little data -- see attached schematic for the sj1 device and DATA from a Tek 3032B which shows the input power (left, red waveform) and output power (right red waveform).
Pin ~ 10 mW ,          Pout ~ 79 mW    per the MATH on the Tek 3032.  (Mean V(t)*I(t)).
You can do the math from there ;).

  For more info, ask, or go over to the OUResearch.com forum (link in post#1 above).

Would like to see someone replicate and test this puppy!  No magnets to buy or bearings...


PS -- I spoke to Carmen Muller of Muller Power Co. today.  Found her articulate and sharp.  I think she ended up asking me more questions than I asked her...  good conversation.  Busy person these days.  (Both of us actually.)

Good Morning Dr. Jones,

Following with interest, up to my eyeballs in RomeroUK motor (bearings and magnets!), but a question.  Have you tested or do you think this circuit can operate at AF frequencies, in the range of 1 to 3 kHz with larger inductors/cap., with the same ratio of input to output? Going on vacation for a week, soon as I get back, can build no problem and have a good scope to check it also.

Respectfully,
Ben K4ZEP

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2011, 05:02:28 PM »
Looks great Prof. Jones.

Here are the 2 video Sterling D. Allan took of it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne7tj5VT_lw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_fGKtmp8Cc


Now we need some replications and some good measurements
and a scale up, so we can extract usable power from it.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline Omega_0

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2011, 05:06:24 PM »
  To entice you with a little data -- see attached schematic for the sj1 device and DATA from a Tek 3032B which shows the input power (left, red waveform) and output power (right red waveform).
Pin ~ 10 mW ,          Pout ~ 79 mW    per the MATH on the Tek 3032.  (Mean V(t)*I(t)).
You can do the math from there ;).

Hi,
Interesting.
Would you like to provide some raw data like:
Instantaneous values captured from scope for say 1 sec.
Voltages : Vin, Vout [with probe factor]
Currents : Vin, Vout [with Rin and Rout or any sense resistors values along with their tolerances (very imp)]
(Or if you used current probes then Iin and Iout]

It will be nice if these are taken at the same time, else within a few seconds. Data can be in excel or csv. (6 decimal points min)

Also, the connections points of probes.

I'm sorry I'm asking you to take this trouble as I have a low end scope (max 1 MHz). Posting this data will benefit all of us poor fellows. :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 05:42:08 PM by Omega_0 »

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2011, 05:06:24 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2011, 05:10:46 PM »
Here is some critique of the circuit I found on the Peswiki page by the user Motor Guy:

Motor Guy:
The circuit has huge stray inductances, and the transistor is not decoupled. That causes the transistor to oscillate horribly each time it starts to conduct substantial current. In the video the scope shows oscillations in the 100MHz range that good layout and decoupling of the transistor would eliminate. That 100MHz easily couples into the high impedance passive oscilloscope probe making the current readings completely erroneous. You can see those oscillations begin to disappear when he adjusts the rheostat he inserted into the low side of the left hand circuit loop. 
 
In the video Dr. Jones says that he has had a version running delivering 900mW out for 4mW in. 900mW is calculated by the oscilloscope. 900mW does not seem possible with these components. For his load that is no less than 5K Ohms, 900mW would mean more than 60V RMS at the transistor emitter, and peak voltages of around 100V. The MPS2222A CE breakdown voltage is only 40V. 900mW would also make the rheostat he has in series with his LED very hot. 
 
Dr. Jones needs to clean-up his circuit and his probes. For the circuit, using a PCB with a solid ground layer would be best. If he doesn't want to do that, he can probably do adequately by moving the transistor very close to the V+/V- strip of that EZ Circuit proto board, and adding a 0.1uF capacitor from the 2222A collector to V- using leads cut as short as possible. Once he cleans the circuit and the instrumentation up, he will find it is an ordinary oscillator that gets all of its power from the battery.

Motor Guy:
This is a nice demonstration of measurement error based delusion. Stray circuit and scope probe inductance cause invalid measurements. Clean-up the measurements and the illusion of over-unity will disappear. 
 
First, get rid of the huge pick-up loop formed by the scope probes' 6" ground clips. This can be done by placing a 0.1uF capacitor across the battery leads where they connect to the board, and using a coaxial probe connection at that point. The coaxial connection can be arranged by either cutting the probe off an old scope probe, or using a coaxial cable with a BNC at both ends and a BNC connector in series with a 50 Ohm resistor soldered right at the capacitor that is across the battery connection to the rest of the circuit. The 50 Ohm resistor is needed to suppress ringing in the coaxial cable. Second, suppress HF current flowing between the scope body and the circuit by clipping a bunch of those clamp-on ferrite EMC filters over each of the scope probe cables. Professor Jones can buy the clamp-on ferrites at Radio Shack for a few dollars each. 
 
The last problem that I see is that his circuit common should be defined as the negative terminal of the battery, not the bottom of the current viewing resistor. The reason for this is that the stray inductance of the resistor and wiring to the battery creates spikes that throw the measurements off. By setting the common at the bottom of the battery a coaxial probe can be soldered across the resistor right at the resistor body. Lead length between the resistor body and the negative side of the battery pack connection where it is picked up by the capacitor and voltage monitoring probe common must be kept to a minimum. 
 
If Professor Jones is sincere, he will clean-up his measurements and report the results. He can do so without spending more than $100. and a few hours of time.

Motor Guy:
Just to add that iit is important to keep the 0.1uF capacitor leads as short as possible. If Professor Jones has a good soldering iron, he can buy 1206 size surface mount parts for both the capacitor and the current viewing resistor. A 1206 resistor will handle 1/4 W, and while reasonably small, 1206 parts are still reasonably easy to solder with a fine soldering tip without using a magnifier.

Motor Guy:
One other minor thing I forgot to say: When the common is defined as the negative terminal of the battery the polarity of the sensed voltage will be opposite the current flow. Be sure to invert the channel to get the right polarity. The Tek scope can do that, and I'm pretty sure the ATTEN scope can as well. 
 
Also as with the voltage probe coax the coax from the current viewing resistor should have a series 50 Ohm resistor right at the end.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2011, 05:44:33 PM »
Here are again the circuit and a few other pics about it:

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2011, 05:44:33 PM »
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Offline Omega_0

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2011, 06:09:05 PM »
Never trust the spiky waveforms, they can confuse even the most sophisticated instruments. Best way to measure them is to rectify them and measure the DC instead. Of course there will be some loss; but at 8x output it will not be an issue.
In this circuit even the input is spiky, which means double trouble.Right now I can't think of any way to measure the input reliably.

To protect the probes from radiation, shield the circuit by placing it in a metal box and running long thick wire to the rectifier placed far away.

Then there is the issue of scope ground. The scope probes have common ground and when you connect them at the same time to an ungrounded circuit, results become unpredictable.

If you get a good DC power out of it, its best to pulse it back into the input and get rid of scopes and meters. That will be the final test.....

Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2011, 06:24:32 PM »
@ JouleSeeker

I am sorry if I misunderstood how you are measuring the output power. But how can you measure the whole cycle using a scope? The voltage on the scope is only valid at one instant of time and changes over the cycle. This is how I measure efficiency > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smOiVmKv9f8

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2011, 07:00:54 PM »
  Appreciate the comments and questions.  We have some family activities this weekend, but will have more time to respond later today and tomorrow. 

Good Morning Dr. Jones,

Following with interest, up to my eyeballs in RomeroUK motor (bearings and magnets!), but a question.  Have you tested or do you think this circuit can operate at AF frequencies, in the range of 1 to 3 kHz with larger inductors/cap., with the same ratio of input to output? Going on vacation for a week, soon as I get back, can build no problem and have a good scope to check it also.

Respectfully,
Ben K4ZEP

Right -- as you increase the Lb and Cb, the frequency of the tank circuit will go down.  I have not gone below about 500 KHz with this circuit, but I think your idea is a good one.    Please do try this, and let us know your results.

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2011, 07:00:54 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf circuit sj1, easy-to-build, shows promise
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2011, 07:06:24 PM »
Looks great Prof. Jones.

Here are the 2 video Sterling D. Allan took of it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne7tj5VT_lw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_fGKtmp8Cc


Now we need some replications and some good measurements
and a scale up, so we can extract usable power from it.


Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

  Thanks, Stefan -- I totally agree  with the need for "replications and some good measurements
and a scale up".   I hope that came across in the vids, but those were unrehearsed and rather impromptu, and I may have not made clear enough the need for replications and further checking.  '

I totally agree that those are needed!    (Gotta run for a while now with family; will return later.)

Offline mscoffman

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2011, 09:05:13 PM »

I agree with people who indicate that instrumentation - once
you've think you've seen evidence of overunity energy - should
be completely removed from the experiment.

It' is extremely easy to substitute RC time constants to integrate
the amount of DC energy from rectified current that will rid
power calculation of any HF signal edge effects and cable
reflections. Use diodes that operate with relatively high efficiency.

For example rather than running the oscillator directly from a battery,
run it on a capacitor that get charged from the battery via an NE555
switch that will cause the circuit oscillations to run for a fixed time then
be reset to fixed voltage - and imply energy from load on the RC time
constant.

Then look at output energy collected on the capacitors as a function
of the RC time constant. Look at comparative Hi vs Lo voltage.

The R and C can be then measured with precision statically.

I think some of the things that happen with Steorn, show that
you can't really trust power measurements of HF pulses especially
when your instrumentation becomes part of circuit operation. You
may be pitting the quality of the signal processing against the
MPS2222 transistors ability to detect the scopes input impedance.

Don't pull the old sophomoric BS about how expensive instruments must
give correct results no matter how they are used. Be ready to cross
check each result, then accept what your results indicate.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2011, 01:38:46 AM »
Here is a replication video from User itsusable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV4xMeZ_41Y

Seems it is not so easy to measure the output power in his case.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hyiq

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2011, 01:54:32 AM »
Only one way to show this is OU, is to self-power then power a load if possible. Measuring this type of wave form is always going to be a problem even with the most sophisticated equipment.

If it self Powers itself its OU. Its easy to get ones hopes up and then be let down by a silly measurement error. I have done it before. All the Best Professor and keep up the good work.

On some models of the Tektronix, it does state in the manual that only Sinusoidal Wave form Measurements are measured with accuracy. Does this scope state that these Spiky Wave Forms are measured correctly? Being that this circuit is simple, I will build it and try the Self Powering test.

All the Best

  Chris

Offline wopwops

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2011, 03:14:25 AM »
Quote
Only one way to show this is OU, is to self-power then power a load if possible.

It's worth repeating!

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2011, 03:14:25 AM »

 

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