Author Topic: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists (Read 206177 times)

plengo · « **Reply #15 on:** May 14, 2011, 01:39:24 AM »

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don't kill the scpetics

skeptics are good to have specially good ones.

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- you invested energy to move closer the object and to remove the object. At this point only you made all the action.

yes but if the removing of the object is aided by the magnet than the net energy is zero. All i put it is returned during the repulsion.

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now try to imagine :
- i move a wire in a magnetic field
- wire will have "current" in it
- i use this current on a bit further in a motor and convert it back to mechanical motion

even when using the current later farther in the line it will still generate a counter-force that will act as resistance, Lenz law, but yes, I got your point. Use it outside the influence of the magnetic field.

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Edit: Actually if one of the magnets is pulling all the time towards a coil, and none are in "pulling back mode" = the coil circuit is broken fizically, then in theory it should try to go forward all the time. No ?

Interesting, this is more inline with my reasoning. Would be possible to accomplish that "always out" but never "in"

?

I am seeing a few components in this motor that is not the obvious at first:
- the "gate" of the rotor magnet + the coil + the 2 other 90 degree magnets are actually forming the famous tri-gate that Howard Johnson created (http://www.fdp.nu/triforcegate/default.asp).
- Ed Leedskalnin perpetual motion in place
- out of balance action of the trigger.

This is one the reasons I would think that just spinning the same rotor with no trigger would not create OU.

Fausto.

Tudi · « **Reply #16 on:** May 14, 2011, 09:24:20 AM »

Sterling engines work almost the same way. You provide pressure, the piston moves a bit then breaks the cycle to be able to move back almost with no cost. Meantime the second piston is getting pushed.

I have no idea if it is possible to turn on / of fmagnetic properties of a material with less investment then pull force amount. Considering the magnetic field decays rapidly, the amount of movement length would be small = sensible device.

Again, electrons just help you store mechanical energy to "rotate another motor in another place". In theory you can only loose here due to the electron transfers. Maybe we need a totaly strange apraoch. Luck of a random effect observation.

nul-points · « **Reply #17 on:** May 14, 2011, 10:29:14 AM »

hi guys

excuse me 'chipping in' here...

i saw a thread someone's just started in the last 24hrs or so, where they're discussing the asymmetry of force needed to pull magnets apart in line with the magnets, compared with the force required to 'slide' them apart

the member is drawing diagrams of raising & lowering one magnet on a shaft & trying to move the other magnet horizontally

he believes that there is the opportunity to get power from a magnet this way

well - isn't this what we have in motor arrangements like the Muller, etc?

we 'slide' the magnet into place sideways - the force of attraction between rotor mag and the core/coil gets converted via rapid flux change into elec in the coil - and then we 'slide' the rotor mag away, and repeat with the next rotor mag

i think the motor approach is what this member's new thread is basically trying to achieve - the spinning rotor (with its inertia and any anti-cogging, which Romero added) is giving a 'mechanical advantage' - a lever, if you will - so that we can use the inherent force in the magnet whilst doing less work than that to apply that force

just my 2c

thanks
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

futuristic · « **Reply #18 on:** May 14, 2011, 12:19:45 PM »

I don't really see connection to the RomeroUK motor but experiments that you are talking about were conducted in 1998 by J.L. Naudin: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm

nul-points · « **Reply #19 on:** May 14, 2011, 01:13:42 PM »

Quote from: futuristic on May 14, 2011, 12:19:45 PM

I don't really see connection to the RomeroUK motor but experiments that you are talking about were conducted in 1998 by J.L. Naudin: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm

this is the new thread i referenced:

link --> http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10731.msg286214#new

the connection is to any device where a magnet gets moved 'sideways' into position on the common axis line between the coil/core & the magnet

the guy in the thread, ResinRat, believes that the action of the magnet provides more work output than the work required to get the magnet into position

he's trying to picture it with shafts or rods & such

my point is that a rotor does the 'sideways' move for us - and we get benefit from inertia, and any anti-cogging arrangement of the setup

Romero's Muller Dynamo replication is just one example

if ResinRat is correct in his thinking, then the effect he's trying to achieve with 'linear' implementations may be the reason that we see excess energy available in Romero's device

hope this clarifies what i was saying earlier
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

plengo · « **Reply #20 on:** May 14, 2011, 05:50:07 PM »

There has been concerns from many members that such small coil would not be able to produce more than 2 or 3 volts when used as a generator.

In this video, I am demonstrating a very simple experiment that it is very possible and indeed very simple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pHLKPciCGM

Fausto.

plengo · « **Reply #21 on:** May 14, 2011, 06:53:07 PM »

The relay used is part number is IEC255 OMRON LY2 12 VDC - from RadioShack - made in Indonesia. Dimensions are 13.42 mm diameter, 13.39mm height outside, 6mm inner diameter. Core is 5mm diameter, 17.24mm height.

156 ohm and 155 mH.

Fausto.

Tudi · « **Reply #22 on:** May 14, 2011, 10:13:48 PM »

the problem with the idea of circular magnet movement (sideways) in romerouk aproach is that you need exactly the same amount of energy to move it closer and take it apart. You are at 0 best case. The most bothering part is that when you put a consumer ( lightbulb ) on the coil, you will get a force that is trying to stop the movement of the magnets. This force only exists when you put the consumer on. You are transfering mechanincal energy of the rotating magnets to the consumer.
We are thought that magnets cannot be extracted for energy just as gravity, it is true that gravity is hard to negate, it can be done, but since we know little about gravity, we do it in a way to loose more energy then we would gain.
In magnets, we can shield them pretty efficiently, as the piston gets close to the pull destination, one could slide a "metal" plate to shield the pull force. However, at some point you need to remove the plate ....Not sure if there is any gain

In romerouk version, the part that he is tuning the device to not have too strong magnets for the load seems like the need of the shielding when magnets are tryng to leave the coils. The drag under the load. Moving the coils further from the magnets = smaller magnetic field, smaller attraction, smaller energy conversion ... However maybe this very sensible edge is the key here. let's say the COP you can get out this way is really small 1.0001 per magnet / coil. In case you put a hevier load, you will eat up the gain + mechanical energy and stop the rotating wheel. If you balance it just right, and extract only 0.00009 of the energy, the wheel should very very slowly speed up. Having 18 coils all in parallel might add up all the small gains.

They key point is to get your wheel speed up. And you can see thousends of videos on youtube with guys having a speeding up wheel with magnets. Which, as we are thought should be impossible.

Balancing is the key ? Too strong magnets might not always good ?

plengo · « **Reply #23 on:** May 15, 2011, 08:35:02 PM »

I got some stuff in progress (until all the remaining things comes).

I used the software (free) from this site (http://www.emachineshop.com/machine-shop/index.php). They will allow you to order build your parts, although I think it is too expensive, BUT, the software was very easy to use and to create my rotor design.

Attached is also the 2 designs for the Rotor and Stator coils for their software. Once I designed the disks I printed a few times and glue 2 pages together so I could have one full real size skeleton. Than I cut with scissors and glue on the rotor to precision drill.

I used Dremel tools (no marking from me here

) http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Pop-ups/Pages/ProductImages.aspx?pid=TR800&tab=2&urlhttp://www.dremel.com/en-us/AttachmentsAndAccessories to cut the rotor to precision 250mm. It was very easy and very accurate.

Fausto.

Tudi · « **Reply #24 on:** May 15, 2011, 11:18:25 PM »

nice plengo, keep it rollin
I watched all day videos on youtube about others experimetning with magnetic motors and different ways to make OU. There was this SEG aproach but i did not understand any of it ( might be a good thing

)
Shenhe Wang that tried to do as i imagine it would be working OU, but the guy was kicked out from research team after quite a few years of working there. I guess the idea fails somewhere. Too bad.

We'll have my sad sleep and get a new dream tomorrow

Kept hearing about devices that cool the air around them. Need to find more details about that.

EMdevices · « **Reply #25 on:** May 16, 2011, 01:37:51 AM »

Greetings fellow researchers!

I'm very pleased to see so many folks trying to replicate this Muller generator design. I'm joining the fun as well, and I ordered about 100 disk magnets last week, which should arrive this week sometimes.

I am planing on building a few variations of the basic design so I can learn what features are critical and which are not.

Here's the theory that I want to validate:

Magnets in motion will convert extra energy from the subatomic world, as they pass a loaded coil wound on a ferrite core that is magnetically biased in opposition to the passing magnet polarity.

EM

plengo · « **Reply #26 on:** May 16, 2011, 05:59:56 AM »

I was studying Thains motor and I think he does explain pretty well what is going on here.

Hey says that when the frequency of the rotor is above a critical point where the impedance of the coil (which is frequency related) is the highest, the ability of the coil of performing Lenz's Law is limited since the resistance is high and current is very low which reduces the counter magnetic field.

When the frequency is too low, the impedance is the lowest and therefore the coil is ABLE to pass more current and therefore create more counter magnetic field. Frequency will be ZERO at TDC therefore the impedance will be equals the very low coils resistance of below 5 ohms, therefore creating more current.

His coils are not small. They are high value gauge which means they are very small diameter coils, with resistance on average of 1.5 ohms. Which kind of corroborate Romero's coils. Very low resistance.

Now, with the relay coil that I did a video demonstration I right away realized that although they are good in creating 12 volts they will not be good for this particular Muller design, they are 150+ohms. The only way I could think of reducing the resistance is, again corroborating what Romero did, is by using many strands of the same wire in parallel so that the total resistance will be much smaller while keeping the amount of turns high to allow creation of higher voltage.

I am not concerned with creating lots of current yet, since once the rotor rotation is aided by the "high voltage" coil (such as Thains explanation), the current will be available any way. What I mean is the parameters for design Romero's coils are:

- very small diameter of wire to allow more turns and aid in high voltage generation
- very small resistance (below 5 ohms) to allow the generation of current to be very limited when the impedance reaches the maximum. Litz wires come in mind.
- proportional size coils to magnets since too little magnets or too big coils may not be the most optimal for magnetic flux/cutting wires relationship.
- cogging reduction by using biasing magnets

This video from Thains explains that pretty well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czXmazZ4obs&feature=channel_video_title

Fausto.

wings · « **Reply #27 on:** May 16, 2011, 06:39:58 AM »

Quote from: plengo on May 16, 2011, 05:59:56 AM

I was studying Thains motor and I think he does explain pretty well what is going on here.

Hey says that when the frequency of the rotor is above a critical point where the impedance of the coil (which is frequency related) is the highest, the ability of the coil of performing Lenz's Law is limited since the resistance is high and current is very low which reduces the counter magnetic field.

When the frequency is too low, the impedance is the lowest and therefore the coil is ABLE to pass more current and therefore create more counter magnetic field. Frequency will be ZERO at TDC therefore the impedance will be equals the very low coils resistance of below 5 ohms, therefore creating more current.

His coils are not small. They are high value gauge which means they are very small diameter coils, with resistance on average of 1.5 ohms. Which kind of corroborate Romero's coils. Very low resistance.

Now, with the relay coil that I did a video demonstration I right away realized that although they are good in creating 12 volts they will not be good for this particular Muller design, they are 150+ohms. The only way I could think of reducing the resistance is, again corroborating what Romero did, is by using many strands of the same wire in parallel so that the total resistance will be much smaller while keeping the amount of turns high to allow creation of higher voltage.

I am not concerned with creating lots of current yet, since once the rotor rotation is aided by the "high voltage" coil (such as Thains explanation), the current will be available any way. What I mean is the parameters for design Romero's coils are:

- very small diameter of wire to allow more turns and aid in high voltage generation
- very small resistance (below 5 ohms) to allow the generation of current to be very limited when the impedance reaches the maximum. Litz wires come in mind.
- proportional size coils to magnets since too little magnets or too big coils may not be the most optimal for magnetic flux/cutting wires relationship.
- cogging reduction by using biasing magnets

This video from Thains explains that pretty well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czXmazZ4obs&feature=channel_video_title

Fausto.

Litz wires :

It's the fact that parallel conductors have a mutual inductance, so a changing current in one conductor induces a voltage in the other conductor.

http://lists.contesting.com/_towertalk/2005-03/msg00282.htm

high frequency more effect

Tudi · « **Reply #28 on:** May 16, 2011, 09:00:05 AM »

Interesting about Thains motor. I did watch the video about it yesterday, somehow i skipped it quickly without paying much attention to it.
About high frequency. Yeah, now that is a domain that contains a lot of magic for me. A lot of "strange" things happen at high enough frequency. Let's not forget that all matter exists as long as it has some "movement" at atomic level. Playing with that movement might alter even matter. Even magnetic field has a propagation speed, at high frequency you might get to a point where there is no back EMF or even magnetic attraction. Which makes me think you need a stable RPM for romerouk device to be able to finetune it.
Another cool thing i saw today is the programable magnets. These babies attract to each other to a certain distance then repel each other in a way to create an equilibrium state at some distance see example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POc32aioLFE
maybe a similar design would help in creating a piston like motor ? Attract for a while then at equilibrium state slide them away ...

Maybe romero was using the extra magnets to obtain this effect also ? Let the coil attract the incoming magnet then using the magnet at the back create an equilibrium state to let it escape the back EMF more easely ?

btw, when having 2 paralel wires (litz) and you induce current in them, aren't they suppose to try to cancel out each other ? the magnetic field around them tries to oppose each other. This is why some use low wind count, or try to devise interesting wire configurations, or use loosed windings to separate wires a bit.

wings · « **Reply #29 on:** May 16, 2011, 09:44:06 AM »

[quote author=Tudi link=topic=10716.msg286654#msg286654 date=1305529205

btw, when having 2 paralel wires (litz) and you induce current in them, aren't they suppose to try to cancel out each other ? the magnetic field around them tries to oppose each other. This is why some use low wind count, or try to devise interesting wire configurations, or use loosed windings to separate wires a bit.

[/quote]

if I remember correctly each single wire of the litz is connected in series to have high voltage output, bit more complicated

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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo for experimentalists (Read 206177 times)

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