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Author Topic: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2  (Read 36550 times)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2011, 05:12:52 PM »
You can have the same size plates in water and it will still produce a voltage but it will be the generic voltage of around 100mV give or take. If you want to see more power the trick is very simple, have one of the aluminum wires barely touching the water and the other aluminum wire fully in the water. For me my barely touching water plate is my positive. Let me know if this works for others.  :)

@ibpointless: I bow my head and crawl in the dust of my garden hut, you are right, thank you for your hints and encouragement!

My house has too much electronic smog, so I moved the experiment to my garden hut completely made from wood, no electricity for at least 80 meters, and it works!

See the attached photos. Yes, the aluminium wire barely touching the water surface is positive (the other aluminium wire is in the distiled water). I reversed the probes of the digital multimeter (DC setting) to see whether this is true, and it is. It also gives the highest reading (more than 200 mV).

As you see, I used two different digital multimeters, the measurements are similar. The older one gives lower readings (I have to buy a new battery).

Ibpointless, you are on to something, I will continue testing. Great stuff! One has to be careful when doing the tests and measurements. I was much to hasty when doing my previous tests. (Everybody, watch out for electronic smog overlaying the measurements!)

A question: when you build your little straw-cells, one strip of aluminium sheet has to be shorter than the other?

Greetings, Conrad

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Offline conradelektro

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2011, 07:52:30 PM »
High weirdness showing up: Playing with this strange "distiled water - two aluminium wires - cell", I could hardly believe what I saw consistently (digital multimeter set to DC).

It depends whether one touches the surface of the water (the other wire is submerged) with the pointed end of the wire or with a round bend! Even polarity changes. See the attached photo.

One wire submerged:

- Pointed end of second wire touching the surface of the distiled water: about + 250 mV (water touching wire is +)

- Round portion of second wire touching the surface of the distiled water: about - 100 mV (water touching wire is -)

Remarks: More (than two) wires in the same water did not give better results. The amperage is so small, I can not measure it, only voltage. It takes 10 to 20 seconds till voltage stabilizes. Sometimes the voltage reached 300 mV (pointed end of wire touching the surface of the water). The water has to be touched, but as little as possible in order to reach 300 mV (needs some fiddling).

Greetings, Conrad


Offline ibpointless2

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2011, 12:49:35 AM »
Thank You Conrad I do appreciate what you said.

Hey you should try making one plate a coil of aluminum wire, it sometimes gives crazy results. I do know what you mean about the "u" shape wire making some crazy readings. Different shapes give different voltages and polarities. Playing with different wires and matching them up with other wires will give you better voltage like in my videos. Every plate is different, its like they take on their own life when created.

As for the smaller compact straw cells I have use many types, from aluminum foil, aluminum wire and aluminum nails. These straw cells are smaller of course but hold one big problem that i'm facing. You see these straw cells get air bubbles trapped in them in the middle which causes the cell to stop because theirs a air bubble blocking the water from touching. Its hard to get these cells to work right when air bubbles form.

The key to making these cells last are to keep the water in and the air out. Never fold any of the plates so that air can get trapped in them. This was why i went to the straw idea, it kept water in and air out but they're far from perfect because they trap air bubbles. Heating the water will increase the voltage too and increase plate size will increase amps. Different plate shapes will also determine voltage and polarities.

When you start putting them in series you'll run into problems like i have. You just can't go and hook them up and expect voltage to be higher. It take time and fine tuning of each cells, you've got to make sure the polarities are correct and that you got them hooked up to get the best voltages. and even when you do all this you may fine that some cells will switch polarities and then they become voltage resistors and lowers the total voltage.

Also keep in mind that people say this is impossible. You can't have voltage from the same metals in the same water, just check the books and the internet.

I do thank you for taking the time to play with my cells, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing this. Many people called me crazy and said this can't be done. I've tried for a long time to get this idea out there and prove to people its really happening but everyone just blows me off and ignores me. So thank you again Conrad and everyone on this forum for listening.


Offline conradelektro

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2011, 09:59:29 AM »
I talked to a chemist and he came up with the following:

Oxygen (in the air) reacts with aluminium and produces electrons (or is releasing some electrons into the air) and the other wire (sticking in the distiled water) does not have this reaction (or has it only in the part not in the water). In this way a potential difference between the two wires arises.

Aluminium is highly reactive and forms a thin layer whenever exposed to air. Aluminium is also a very good conductor. Oxidations on the surface of aluminium influence conductivity (on spot where the layer is forming) very much.

Shapes: charge collection on surfaces is influenced by shape. Specially pointed regions give off electrons into the air or into the water. Touching the water with a U-shaped wired might divide the charge on the wire into a negative and positive part.

Weirdness: electric charges move around on surfaces, collect in some places and split up in positive and negative charges depending on the shape and size of a surface (pointed, round, covered by water).

Connection in series: The fact that the cells can not easily be connected in series, also points to electric charges moving in unexpected and surprising ways. The charges are also very small, therefore they are hard to observe, easily influenced by all sort of circumstances (shape of surface, splitting up, being extinguished when making a connection somewhere).

Of course, not a really good explanation, all chemical details are missing. The gist: reaction of aluminium with oxygen in the air produces a charge on the surface of the aluminium wire. The wire having more surface in air (in comparison to the wire which is mostly covered by water) has a different charge. Charges move around and split in positive and negative even on the same surface.

Nevertheless, very interesting, will make more tests with aluminium tubes, rods and sheets.

Greetings, Conrad


Offline ibpointless2

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2011, 01:27:28 PM »
I talked to a chemist and he came up with the following:

Oxygen (in the air) reacts with aluminium and produces electrons (or is releasing some electrons into the air) and the other wire (sticking in the distiled water) does not have this reaction (or has it only in the part not in the water). In this way a potential difference between the two wires arises.

Aluminium is highly reactive and forms a thin layer whenever exposed to air. Aluminium is also a very good conductor. Oxidations on the surface of aluminium influence conductivity (on spot where the layer is forming) very much.

Shapes: charge collection on surfaces is influenced by shape. Specially pointed regions give off electrons into the air or into the water. Touching the water with a U-shaped wired might divide the charge on the wire into a negative and positive part.

Weirdness: electric charges move around on surfaces, collect in some places and split up in positive and negative charges depending on the shape and size of a surface (pointed, round, covered by water).

Connection in series: The fact that the cells can not easily be connected in series, also points to electric charges moving in unexpected and surprising ways. The charges are also very small, therefore they are hard to observe, easily influenced by all sort of circumstances (shape of surface, splitting up, being extinguished when making a connection somewhere).

Of course, not a really good explanation, all chemical details are missing. The gist: reaction of aluminium with oxygen in the air produces a charge on the surface of the aluminium wire. The wire having more surface in air (in comparison to the wire which is mostly covered by water) has a different charge. Charges move around and split in positive and negative even on the same surface.

Nevertheless, very interesting, will make more tests with aluminium tubes, rods and sheets.

Greetings, Conrad


I've been told this explanation before and it raised many questions. You say the aluminum reacts with the air and creates the voltage, but I've have mention this before where I say you need to make the cells to where they keep water in and air out. I've made cells that do just that. A example would be the compact straw design, its sealed and full of water. Let us not forget that aluminum is not the only thing that works, carbon such as graphite works. Since Graphite is not a metal it cant rust so it can't react to the oxygen in the air. Also other metals work too besides just aluminum.

Of course further testing needs to be done to confirm these ideas.    :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2011, 01:27:28 PM »
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Offline ibpointless2

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2011, 11:16:07 PM »
I've been studying aluminum for some time now and found some interesting things about it.

Aluminum will create a oxide layer on it as soon as it touches the the air (oxygen). So the Aluminum I use in my cells have the oxide layer on it already. Aluminum without the oxide layer when placed in water will actually boil the water releasing hydrogen. Here's a video of pure aluminum touching the water http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTMScbIMnfw

So the oxide layer on my cells plates are a good thing. So all the aluminum we mess with is already rusted over.

Also the aluminum oxide is insoluble in water under normal conditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxide

So the idea of cells plates reacting with the oxygen to make electricity is hard to confirm. You see the aluminum has already acted to the oxygen in the air instantly and if it didn't then when you put the aluminum in the water it would start to boil the water. So once its rusted over you can't rust anymore so how can it be reacting the the air when theres nothing left for it to react with. Plus the aluminum oxide that forms doesn't dissolve in the water so the water isn't removing the oxide layer.

But like I said before the killer proof that it might not be the air reacting with the aluminum to make the voltage is the fact that Graphite works as well and its not a metal that can form oxide.

I am will to accept the idea of the idea of the air is reacting to the cell to make the voltage that we see so long as some one can point me to some website that states that this is the reason. As of yet no one has shown me proof and I've been searching for that website and i can't find it.

Even if these cell use the air to make the voltage they're still something to cool to play with, and make a very eco friendly battery too!


Offline ibpointless2

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2011, 03:06:38 AM »
I've been having a hard time putting these cells in series. Having these cells in series are very important to me because once they're in series I can power things like LED's. I believe that people don't care about these cells because they can't power anything yet. When you try to put these cell in series they start to act crazy, change polarities and its hard to raise the total voltage. It seem like these cell like to be alone and thats where they perform the best.

So I'm going to start playing by the cells game, I'm going to let them be alone but i'm also going to have them power a LED too. I'm going to have each cell charge a capacitor and hook those capacitors in series and then I'll have a LED light up due to the energy coming from the same metal water battery.

I'm happy to report that the cells can charge a capacitor. I'm charging a 22,000uf capacitor now and its charging nicely but slowly. I will power a LED!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2011, 03:06:38 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2011, 09:04:33 AM »
I've been having a hard time putting these cells in series. Having these cells in series are very important to me because once they're in series I can power things like LED's. I believe that people don't care about these cells because they can't power anything yet. When you try to put these cell in series they start to act crazy, change polarities and its hard to raise the total voltage. It seem like these cell like to be alone and thats where they perform the best.

So I'm going to start playing by the cells game, I'm going to let them be alone but i'm also going to have them power a LED too. I'm going to have each cell charge a capacitor and hook those capacitors in series and then I'll have a LED light up due to the energy coming from the same metal water battery.

I'm happy to report that the cells can charge a capacitor. I'm charging a 22,000uf capacitor now and its charging nicely but slowly. I will power a LED!

Try a small supercap, say about 10 Farads, and then use that to run a joule thief and you will be able to light many leds from your batteries.

Bill

Offline ibpointless2

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2011, 09:56:06 PM »
I have stated before that barely having one plate or wire touching the water gives better voltage and this is true but this could lead people to think that the size of plates determines the voltage. Having one plate barely touching the water makes people think that if one plate is smaller than the other I'll get more voltage and this is not true. I have a picture below showing that even though I used a bigger plate in the water I still didn't get as much voltage as I do from cells that have smaller plates.

This now raises another idea on how to increase the voltage. Having one plate more exposed to the air than the other plate might increase the voltage. The more the plate is exposed to the air the more it can react with the oxygen to give or take electrons to make the electricity that we see. Through testing this is not the case, but does help to solve one mystery. The voltage does not increase when one plate is more exposed to the air than the other but it does show that the plate that is exposed to the air more is the positive plate. Another picture will be placed below to show what I mean. So if the cell was getting its power from the reaction to the oxygen in the air then increasing the surface area of one plate so that it is more exposed to the air should increase the voltage because more electrons can be given up but this doesn't happen and still produces less power than one of the smaller plated cells.

So plate size in water and plate size in the air doesn't determine the voltage. But plate size does increase amps and helps to determine polarity. So what determines the voltage? Thats still a very good question. I would say shape of the plate is the one that I see affecting the voltage.


Offline ibpointless2

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2011, 12:48:46 AM »
It could be possible that the energy I'm seeing from the same metal water batter is coming from temperature. The water could be cooler than the room, so the aluminum wire in the water is at a different temp than the one barely touching the water. The one barely touching the water is more at the room temp while the one in the water is cooler due to the water evaporating or something like that.

When I first started testing the same metal water battery I did try it with boiling water and got a much higher voltage than normal. When I fist started the most voltage I seen was around 200mV but the hot water gave me close to 400mV, that voltage was never seen before by me.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2011, 12:48:46 AM »
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Offline ibpointless2

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2011, 04:00:40 PM »
I've made a cement version of my same metal water battery. I use quickcrete and distilled water with my aluminum wire. At 3:50 of the video I show the amps.

here's the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-HfWZACZ68

Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2011, 08:35:31 PM »
Ibpoinless
keep on the good work and thks for sharing !
I´ve experimented with your ideas here with simmilar results as yours, so I think you are on the right track.
I will try to aply some of the S geometry (and phi ratio)to the shape of plates and wires, to see if it does make a difference.
will post results here soon
cheers


Offline ibpointless2

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2011, 12:34:46 AM »
Ibpoinless
keep on the good work and thks for sharing !
I´ve experimented with your ideas here with simmilar results as yours, so I think you are on the right track.
I will try to aply some of the S geometry (and phi ratio)to the shape of plates and wires, to see if it does make a difference.
will post results here soon
cheers


thank you,

Not too much and not too little is the idea here. I see that the plates have a certain ratio that they must meet to give the best voltage. You can see this too when you move the plate up and down out of the water, you'll see the voltage jump around until you get that sweet spot where it gives the best voltages. I must find these ratios.

I do want to state that the cement same metal water batteries do give off the best amps. they charge capacitors 5 times a fast. Could be the minerals in the cement that helps the better amps.

Offline b_rads

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2011, 01:07:06 AM »
@ibpointless2
Cool Stuff 8)
I just tried your setup with alu foil and distilled water.  63mv - now the fun - I placed a 5mm led (white or blue, not sure which) and touched neg of led to cathode, pos of led in open water and 475mv.  It is 6:00 pm and the sun is pretty low.  The water seems to have electrified with the led.
Brad S


Offline ibpointless2

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Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2011, 04:16:11 AM »
I think I may have a good guess as to where the power from the same metal water battery is coming from. The idea was proposed when I was studying the cement version of the same metal water battery and notice the voltage has increased the next day. So what changed about the cell? I did nothing to it but the concrete was curing. When it cures it gets harder, it may take concrete days before it can be load baring due to it harding. As it hardens pressure is put on the plates. Thus we see pressure come into the picture.

The Voltage is influenced by pressure!

Pressure does make sense. Lets think about my cells that use water, when you go deeper in the water the pressure builds. When we notice that one plate is barely touching the water it has a different pressure on it than the one fully in the water.

Remember when I thought it could be heat that influenced the cells, well this still holds true. The hotter the water the more it expands thus more pressure.

I believe what we have here is cells driven by pressure! Pressure Cells! Having one cell deeper in the water should create higher voltage, but a big tube of water is needed. If it is pressure driven then you could say its powered by gravity since gravity is needed to give water its pressure.

I'll put pictures below to show you the voltage increase in the cement same metal water battery.

This is just an idea so I could be wrong.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: batteries without metal electrodes and just cheap graphite and TiO2
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2011, 04:16:11 AM »

 

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