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Author Topic: Shorting coil gives back more power  (Read 273586 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2011, 12:21:48 AM »
Hi Laurent,

Thanks for the nice video, very informative and please could you check that when reed switch shorts the coil then the input current to the motor taken from the power supply changes to a higher value?

Thanks, Gyula

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2011, 12:21:48 AM »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2011, 12:29:10 AM »
Very well done Laurant !
Maybe you can just try to use a selfoscillating relay, which closes and opens by itsself by using
a 9 Volts battery on a few other relay pins to drive this relay, so that it opens and closes multiple times
per second and then please show the waveform again on your scope ?

This could replace the reed switch and will be easier, cause you don´t need to hold any
reed switch in your hand.
You can just let it open and close all the time...
does not matter, if it is only at the peak of the amplitude.


Surely you can also use an electronic switch for this purpose and
just drive it with a free running pulse generator.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2011, 01:27:01 AM »
P.S.
YOu could also use a battery and a series resistor and a coil
like an R L circuit and make the coil have about 100 mA in the DC mode as the current.

Then you can short out the coil very fast on and off across the coil via a mechanical or electronical switch,
so this will also induce many spikes across the coil which could
be captured via a diode into a capacitor.
If you make the coil big enough and the switching frequency fast enough you
should also get more output then input.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline Bruce_TPU

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2011, 01:28:07 AM »
One wonders if a Solid State version could not be made, using an earth battery.  Make and break the two metals of the primary to create AC on the secondary and then short the secondary coil at the Sines peak and dump into a high voltage capacitor.

Just a thought for anyone with a proper wound earth battery.


Offline e2matrix

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2011, 01:54:57 AM »
Below is the circuit used to do the test.

Hi Romerouk,  That's great getting the battery to charge up while running!  That's big.  It's like having a self charging battery and just what I'm looking for.  I've got to ask a dumb question though and maybe even someone else will know the answer if you're not around.  In your diagram you show one battery and coil.  Is that what is causing the motor to spin?  I see it looks like an old hard drive motor and platter and I notice wires coming off the bottom of your setup.  So just wondering if you are running the HD motor directly or just using that setup as a low friction spinner for your motor running from the side coil sort of like the Bedini SG motor. 

   I was playing with my Bedini SG motor last night using a separate coil (MOT fan coil just like you show) to pick up from the magnets (however mine aren't oriented like yours yet).  When I shorted with a reed switch I could see big spikes on the O-scope.  I tried dumping to a cap but wasn't seeing much over the battery voltage.  It was a quick and dirty setup so I was probably doing something wrong but at least I was seeing the spikes when I held the reed switch close. 

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2011, 01:54:57 AM »
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Offline MasterPlaster

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2011, 02:46:01 AM »
One wonders if a Solid State version could not be made, using an earth battery.  Make and break the two metals of the primary to create AC on the secondary and then short the secondary coil at the Sines peak and dump into a high voltage capacitor.

Just a thought for anyone with a proper wound earth battery.


You mean like this?


http://www.intalek.com/Papers/Handout3.pdf  ( page 25 )

Kunel's patent:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1762.0;attach=4295


Offline romerouk

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2011, 03:00:09 AM »
@e2matrix
I am using a HDD motor to hold the rotor disk and the wires u see are comming from the HDD motor thinking that I can use that at a later stage, at the moment not connected anywhere.
In the youtube video I posted, I was using a reed switch to drive my small coil, now I have changed it with a hall sensor and a transistor to drive the rotor.It uses about 70-90ma do do the work.
I have added extra coils and more magnets and now I can get better and faster charge but still having a 6 volt battery in the system. With capacitor I have tried everything I know and sugested here too but after about a minute the voltage in the capacitor goes below 3 volts and my hall stops working due to insufficient power.
The position of the reed switches is critical to keep the speed unaffected while shorting.
I am working on a circuit where the reed will trigger a small circuit and for that period of time to short the coil multiple times.
Below is a picture with the setup at this moment.
One more important thing is the arangements of the coils to make sure none of the coils are shorted while the driving coil is at ON time.We need to send the charge to the battery while the driving coil is at OFF position.

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2011, 03:00:09 AM »
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Offline Bruce_TPU

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2011, 03:24:58 AM »
Hi romerouk,

Pls see below. Good luck!

Cheers,

Bruce

Offline romerouk

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2011, 03:29:42 AM »
@Bruce_TPU
I am planning to do that too.

Thank you,
RomeroUK

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2011, 05:44:10 AM »
RomeroUK,  thanks for the reply on that.  I assumed that was most likely how you had it setup.  I've got a bunch of old HD motors I need to strip a few out for things like this.  Sounds like you are heading in the direction like konehead described Ismael is doing of trying to do mulitple hits on the peak.  Exciting concept although I'll consider myself lucky if I can just get to where you've already been with this.  I think it's a good sign and quite surprising that your capacitor runs it for even close to a minute.  I'll probably just focus on using a battery and getting it to where it keeps it charged.  Glad to see you on board with this concept! 

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2011, 05:44:10 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2011, 07:13:52 AM »
Hi All,
you can use also some kind of this circuit.

If the voltage for the coil is produced by induction from a magnet
or via a running current from a battery does not matter much.

The toggle switch can be toggled all the time and you could also use
a "selftoggling" relay for this ( like a doorbell ringer circuit).

You can also use a MOSFET, but then you might not have the Newman
effects of the mechanical switching, which might put back current spikes
back to the battery and recharge it automatically.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2011, 07:26:18 AM »
P.S. Interesting will be to see,
what kind of effect this 1 uF cap will have.
You can also try 10 uF or 100 uF.
Should be NO electrolyte cap but a foil cap.

Maybe you should also short it out, so it is
not in the circuit.
Maybe it will reduce the current draw from the battery,
but the voltage spikes might be lower, if it is in the circuit.

Watch out, that you don´t overcharge the 1000 uF 350 Volts
output electrolytic cap, as it could explode when having too much voltage.

Always have a voltmeter and also better a load resistor across it.
If it goes over 300 Volts always stop the circuit and discharge the cap.

Be very cautious.
300 Volts at 1000 uF can easily KILL YOU on the first touch !

So I take NO responsability of your actions !

Always wear rubber gloves when working with high voltage DC
circuits and use only one hand to touch the circuit and only use the
right hand ( not the left one, where your heart is...! put your left hand in your trousers pocket !)

Also wear good isolating rubber sole shoes. Never experiment with standing just with bare feet
on the ground !

Good luck !
Regards, Stefan.


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2011, 02:32:18 PM »
Hi All,
you can use also some kind of this circuit.

If the voltage for the coil is produced by induction from a magnet
or via a running current from a battery does not matter much.

The toggle switch can be toggled all the time and you could also use
a "selftoggling" relay for this ( like a doorbell ringer circuit).

You can also use a MOSFET, but then you might not have the Newman
effects of the mechanical switching, which might put back current spikes
back to the battery and recharge it automatically.

Regards, Stefan.

Wow   wouldnt that be a lot of constant current on the MOT? Are you sure it is on the right side of the switch?   Just asking and maybe you have a good idea here, just never seen it that way. =]

Mags

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2011, 03:07:00 PM »
The example of Stefan seems confusing to me.

In this example the coil is powered by an external voltage source. Imagine the voltage source is AC.
If a sinus shaped voltage over the coil is used, the current through the coil is 90 degrees lagging.
If a coil is shorterned at the peak of the voltage, therefore there is no current flow at in the coil yet.
Using Ecoil= 0.5LI^2, this means no energy is stored in the coil at the moment the coil is shortened.

I think it is only the case when flux is generated by a magnet.
So, shortening coils at maximum voltage should apply to generator situations, not motor situations?

Basics:
Flux is proportional to current in the coil
EMF is proportional to the delta flux in the coil and therefore proportional to delta current
If a coil is to be shortened at max EMF, the delta current is max.
Delta current is max when it crosses zero amps
With zero amps there is no energy left in an 'air coil'.
So, if there is an effect, this should be related to magnetic viscosity of core material.
Using air coils does not make sense to me.
Any other opinions?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 03:31:33 PM by teslaalset »


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2011, 04:59:14 PM »
The example of Stefan seems confusing to me.

In this example the coil is powered by an external voltage source. Imagine the voltage source is AC.


Hi teslaalset,
your arguments do not apply, cause it is a pure DC current that powers the coil in my
case.
The DC current is just chopped via the switching.

It has to be tested, could be, that I am wrong, but that must be tested.
Also please test, if adding a permanent magnet onto the coil
or onto the MOT core does have any effect on the output.

It must also be tested, if it will work better with iron core coils
or just air core coils.
With air core coils you can probably go to higher switching frequencies.

Regarding the high voltage requirements Ismael mentioned,
it would be good to also use a high voltage power source instead the
12 Volt battery and just switch this via the resistor onto the coil
only for a few milliseconds and then switch it off again.
But then you need more complex switches and high voltage
switches, which are much more complicated.

Just try it first this way as I have posted it .

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

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Re: Shorting coil gives back more power
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2011, 04:59:14 PM »

 

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