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2nd "law" violations => Heat to electric energy conversion => Topic started by: exnihiloest on January 08, 2011, 12:20:57 PM
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This article stipulates that a Karpen's battery is still working after 60 years:
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2010/12/25/karpen-pile/
Vasilescu-Karpen, Romanian physicist, proposed batteries without chemical reactions. They are made from an ionic solution in contact either with two unreactive electrodes of different materials or of same material but one completely immersed and the other partially or with two identical electrodes in two non-miscible solutions in contact.
When the battery is producing a current, it becomes depolarized after a while. After being disconnected, it polarizes slowly, and the cycle can continue forever without chemical reaction or material consumption. Vasilesco-Karpen says that current consumption lowers the battery temperature, thus that energy is supplied by the environment (constituting a Maxwell's demon).
Vasilescu-Karpen seems to be a serious scientist. He has published numerous papers accepted by the official French Academy of Sciences and still readable in the archives. I have gathered some of them as well as its patent (sorry, all in French):
http://exvacuo.free.fr//div/Sciences/Experiences/Piles/
See particularly his papers of 1927.
I read also his more theoretical papers. Obviously he is not a crackpot. I did not find any refutation of his theory. So there are many reasons to think it could be very interesting to build and test different kinds of his batteries -I will try myself-, to see the magnitude of the supplied power and verify that we are really outside the framework of conventional batteries (in which the electrodes and/or electrolytes are consumed).
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I agree, either this has never been advanced to a useful device or it can never get any better than it is.
Seems odd with all the advancements in technology, this has never improved since it's concept in 1908?
But then, who would want something that pulled useful power from the environment for free! Of what value could that be? It would just put all the coal miners out of work.
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Hi all this sounds alot like what I have going right now ,maybe not though.I don't know French so no sense in looking at the links but, could either of you mybe describe cell construction ??Btw if it is perpetual I'm not so sure you could classify them as batteries............thanx ....shylo
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Hi all this sounds alot like what I have going right now ,maybe not though.I don't know French so no sense in looking at the links but, could either of you mybe describe cell construction ??Btw if it is perpetual I'm not so sure you could classify them as batteries............thanx ....shylo
Hi Shylo,
I have translated the patent for the group and kept the same format (using google translation that I have corrected, but remaining errors are possible).
Here it is:
Direct url:
http://tinyurl.com/3yodn5q
http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Experiences/Piles/
(File: N Vasilesco-Karpen - Pile permanente - FR577087A en.pdf)
I think we can try with any material for the electrodes or the electrolyte(s), the important point being that none reacts with others.
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Hi ex.,that tiny url wouldn't load it said there was some kind of error,thanx anyways."important point that none reacts with the others" not sure exactly what you mean by this??.....shylo
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This could be something interesting to try but I'm thinking I could be somewhat over my head in building this. I have some large graphite blocks I could cut up for electrodes and the sodium hydroxide is just lye. Finding another solution (I assume it should be conductive also) that will not mix, and could work with another graphite electrode is merely trail and error for me.
I'm thinking a chemist would have a better understanding of conductive liquids and non reacting electrodes.
Anyone have any ideas on building these?
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I agree Lumen. I would love to know how this one works. I wonder if it would output more power if heated?
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Hi all ,..I notice that my cells increase in both voltage and amperage if I appliy pressure or vibration ......This says to me that disruption of the aligned magnetic fields ,creates energy, but not ou because it took energy to disrupt the field in the first place..........shylo
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I agree Lumen. I would love to know how this one works. I wonder if it would output more power if heated?
I wonder if the power increases from larger electrode area, or larger surface contact of the two liquids or if it's related to liquid volume. Something should increase the charge.
Maybe heat increases the charge rate.
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I beleive that heat is the key,but not neccesarly in that it can be used for gain,if we could send all generated heat to a specific location,capture it, turn it into something usefull, dissipate it I believe this is where the answer lies....heat, vibration,pressure and oasicilation,..they all seem to be the same thing........shylo
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Hi ex.,that tiny url wouldn't load it said there was some kind of error,thanx anyways.
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Please try again. Perhaps a network or server problem at free.fr.
http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Experiences/Piles/
(File: N Vasilesco-Karpen - Pile permanente - FR577087A en.pdf)
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I beleive that heat is the key,but not neccesarly in that it can be used for gain,if we could send all generated heat to a specific location,capture it, turn it into something usefull, dissipate it I believe this is where the answer lies....heat, vibration,pressure and oasicilation,..they all seem to be the same thing........shylo
The heat is necessary when there is no chemical reactions, as it is the only possible source of energy.
Here we have redox potentials but without possibility of chemical reactions. Therefore this prevents a current to flow when we loop the external circuit at the electrodes. Nevertheless there is still a transition time during which current flows until the equalization of the potentials at the electrodes (then the cell is depolarized). This process is supposed to be endothermic and when we break the circuit, the environment heat allows for the re-polarization of the cell by a reverse process. It is what I understand from Karpen's patent and other papers.
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I tested cells with different metals in a saturated solution of sodium hydroxide. The metals were chosen so that they don't react with NaOH.
The potentials were between 0.3 and 1.2v. The best result was with a carbon anode and a cathode in a ferromagnetic metal (probably steel or iron) whose the whole surface was coated with an inoxidizable metal. I don't know what is this metal, it has rose and green iridescence -see photo-.
The voltage goes up to 1.2v. When the cell is charged with a 100 ohm resistance, the voltage drops instantly to about 0.8v (= 8 mA, 0.48 mW). Then it slowly drops to 0.21v after 1 mn. If I open the circuit at this moment, the voltage increases. After 1 mn: 0.62v, 3 min: 0.73v, 5 min: 0.80v, 9 mn:0.92v
Apparently there is no chemical reaction, the electrolyte and the electrodes remain clean, nevertheless it can't be formally proved because the involved quantity of electricity is too weak.
The time for the cell to recover its full voltage is very long relatively to the duration of the voltage drop when charged.
So we can say that Karpen's battery works. All this confirms Karpen's observations, but also his difficulties to prove beyong any doubt it is a Maxwell's demon. To prove it definitely, we need temperature measurement (which should drop when current is drawn), but the current is too weak to expect for an effect.
Now we have to increase the current and to shorten the time for depolarization but I don't know how.
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Now we have to increase the current and to shorten the time for depolarization but I don't know how.
Does it help if you stir it?
Regards Dutchy
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Try larger surface area and/or mass and charging a low voltage cap.
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The heat is necessary when there is no chemical reactions, as it is the only possible source of energy.
Here we have redox potentials but without possibility of chemical reactions. Therefore this prevents a current to flow when we loop the external circuit at the electrodes. Nevertheless there is still a transition time during which current flows until the equalization of the potentials at the electrodes (then the cell is depolarized). This process is supposed to be endothermic and when we break the circuit, the environment heat allows for the re-polarization of the cell by a reverse process. It is what I understand from Karpen's patent and other papers.
Heat is used to generate the potential difference, but does adding heat really change anything?
I was thinking the potential difference is caused by the difference in electron activity of two dissimilar materials at the same temperature.
Whatever the temperature is, the potential difference always exists until it reaches absolute zero where the cell would finally stop working.
I could be wrong about this, but it seems to be more logical since heating the solution (or two solutions) would increase the activity of both materials and the actual difference in activity would not change but would remain near constant over a large temperature range.
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Does it help if you stir it?
Regards Dutchy
When I stir it, voltage and current decrease. I think voltage is due to ions concentration around the electrodes, and they are dispersed when one stirs them. It is the contrary of conventional cells where to stir removes the gas bubbles and enhances the functioning.
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Heat is used to generate the potential difference, but does adding heat really change anything?
I was thinking the potential difference is caused by the difference in electron activity of two dissimilar materials at the same temperature.
Whatever the temperature is, the potential difference always exists until it reaches absolute zero where the cell would finally stop working.
I could be wrong about this, but it seems to be more logical since heating the solution (or two solutions) would increase the activity of both materials and the actual difference in activity would not change but would remain near constant over a large temperature range.
Interesting question. I keep the idea for a further experiment where I will heat the cell.
In any case, if we suppose a Maxwell demon, to heat the solution should not increase the voltage which depends only on the type of atoms/ions. But it should increase the current because energy is consumed only when a current is drawn and heat is assumed to be the energy source.
Other completely different point: there is a possibility that oxygen from air plays a role (as in Zn/air battery). The system is not closed. So I consider to put the cell in an enclosed box where I will burn oxygen. If voltage changes with CO2 instead of pure air, a Maxwell demon should be dismissed.
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Today tests:
1) I put the cell in a container floating above boiling water. No voltage change. When the cell is charged with 100 ohm, the current drops to 0.3v in 1 mn. In my previous test at ambiant temperature, it dropped to 0.21v. The temperature influence is not conclusive.
2) I had screws of the same metal as my previous cathode. I took one and isolated it with paper. I made a cell by winding a copper wire as anode around the screw. Then I impregnated the paper with my NaOH solution.
The voltage was about 1v which is what I had already by replacing carbon by copper in my previous cell.
When the circuit is charged with 100 ohm, the current drops very quickly then remains constant around 0.16 mA. When the circuit is open again, the voltage increases much more rapidly than with my previous cell. To heat the cells by placing near a soldering iron increases the voltage from 0.16 to 0.21v. Here the effect of temperature is clear.
It is surprising that in this cell with very close electrodes, the current is not more than in the previous cell. The electrolyte resistance seems not to be a problem.
3) More interestingly, I have put the carbon anode A on one side of my electrolyte container, and two identical electrodes K1 and K2 on the other side. When I close the circuit with a resistance from A to K1, the voltage between A and K2 drops also. When I open the circuit, the voltage of K1 and K2 slowly increases. The two cathodes evolve identically in spite only one was used in the circuit.
My conclusion is that the electrolyte is at about the same potential as the cathode, and what is important for the functioning is what happens near the carbon anode. I made the same with 2 carbon anodes and 1 metal cathode, but no special results, i.e the 2 circuits are almost independant, confirming that there is a very big difference in the actions of the cathode and the anode.
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It seems to clear a bit what this thing is, or what it is related to!
http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/varelec.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm
"/.../ An interesting N type negative resistance effect that happens only when the tip of a very sharp aluminum electrode is just barely touching the top surface of the solution. This generates a lot of rf noise as the large misty area at the right part of the curve suggests. /.../"
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Hello,
Ex recently made me aware of the Karpen battery, i am attempting a replication.
I have my sodium-carbonate, i've sourced a nickel electrode and am looking for a platinum one.
I will post updates/videos as i go.
Thanks,
DC.
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Maybe hack apart a used catalytic converter for the platinum electrode ?
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Maybe hack apart a used catalytic converter for the platinum electrode ?
Thanks e2 i'll look into that. I know very little about cars, interesting that the converter contains platinum.
Cheers,
DC.
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dont waste your time with platinum,ive already done this,it gives a small kick on the microampmeter/ surface area.take nickel and silver electrodes(925 jewelery silver is fine) and shove them in2 sodium hydroxide solution(caustic soda)or sodium carbonate sol. and you get quite a kick.the nickel and silver will not corrode no matter what.
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dont waste your time with platinum,ive already done this,it gives a small kick on the microampmeter/ surface area.take nickel and silver electrodes(925 jewelery silver is fine) and shove them in2 sodium hydroxide solution(caustic soda)or sodium carbonate sol. and you get quite a kick.the nickel and silver will not corrode no matter what.
Thanks profiitis but i like to confirm things for myself.
All the best,
DC.
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okdoke deepcut.to ensure that you get max current bursts let me make one suggestion for the benefit of spectators who want to try. you can etch the nickel surface by dipping into hydrochloric acid for a few minutes and rinse thoroughly and you can etch platinum surface by boiling in a mix of 3parts HCL and 1 part conc.HNO3 and rinse.this will allow max surface area.
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chek my own version of related technology in my posted vid on the download section of this forum under the heading 'self-charging cap'. This cell is hundreds times more powerful than the original karpen cell.
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@ Profitis
I thought we could continue to look at this here ,in the appropriate thread. I found this article quit interesting-
http://www.pnl.gov/science/highlights/highlight.asp?id=771.
Maybe it is working like this battery or fuel cell?.
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you have a sharp eye @tinman.the electrostatic attraction between gold and platinum large particles and nanoparticles forms the basis of a karpen pile indeed.that is why those catalytic particles will remain strongly adhered together.it seems 2gether they catalyse that fuel cell better than platinum alone.
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you have a sharp eye @tinman.the electrostatic attraction between gold and platinum large particles and nanoparticles forms the basis of a karpen pile indeed.that is why those catalytic particles will remain strongly adhered together.it seems 2gether they catalyse that fuel cell better than platinum alone.
Profitis-Do you know what kind of power output the battery has?-probably a silly question.I only ask because this would give some kind of indication as to how much energy input would be needed to maintain the output over many year's.
I am still stuck as to why you wouldnt build this battery(as simple as it is)so as to show the first OU machine?. I am starting to see what i think the fuel source is,and although it will last a long time at this draw,it will eventualy be consumed,and the battery will no longer have any output.
There is a clock some where that has an atomic battery the size of a thimble(much smaller than the carpen pile) and it has been rotating those hands for over 86 years now. I will try and find that for you.
My point with that is,although very small,it can produce an output power source for a very long time.But because we know the power source,we know it's not OU-but just a long life battery
I will agree however,that if it has been running for over 60 years as stated,then it's well worth more investigation.
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@tinman the power output of a gold/platinum karpen pile can be made to be at least 6x more dense than the original due to modern technology in preparing massive surface area on the electrodes.there is no fuel to burn in a karpen system so you wont find any,its electrostatic attraction at work.what fuel did you have in mind?ive built cells using cheaper materials replacing the expensive gold and platinum giving tens or even hundreds times the power-density and i want to launch it to a commercial use overseas.which country are you in if i may ask @ tinman.using my own technology a single c-size cell can permanently power a large kitchen wall clock.a regular cellfone battery size will be able to permanently power your tv remote.there is no such thing as limited shelf-life with these type cells.
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Hello profitis,
interesting what you describe in your last post. I live in germany and I like to ask you to send me a note about what size of cell you plan and the business-plan or whatever you have in mind.
Are there any tests which proof the longlivity of the cell ? ( chemical quality-change or - stability of the electrolyte which can be tested)
If you plan to do it as as business there should be some kind of proof.
People - especially here have an attitude of criticism if one comes up with statement about the alledged longelivity.
Regards
Kator01
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hi kator.the proof is so obvious that it will shock the research scientists,the chemistry is straight from text-books,by the textbooks.do you have the power to set me up in a research lab with a comfortable salary if i show you something extremely useful?regards,profitis.
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@ Profitis
I live in Western Australia,on the southwest coast.
Electrostatic charge attraction is along the lines i was thinking. But the power avalible would be very limited,in way of current.Damp and dry days would also see a difference in output by the battery-i would think.I guess you could trickle charge a cap,and use that as a pulse of higher current if needed.
So one must think that the fuel for the battery is the static charge avalible within the ambient air?,and the acid is the charge seperator.
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no @tinman.the electrostatic charge is generated by the difference in electro-chemical potential between gold and platinum just like between any 2 galvanic couples except that gold and platinum cannot chemicaly react in this setup so they force the surrounding electrolyte/reactants to participate for supply of electrons.in other words,an oxygen electrode potential is dependant on not only oxygen,but on the fermi potential of the electrode/catalyst that comprises the reaction surface.any manufacturer of e.g. zinc-air cells will tell you that the materials and preperation of the air electrode plays a critical role in its electrical potential.one can get up to several watts for a few cm2 of electrode materials using the right electrochemisty,ive seen it.this type of cell can be very useful to electronics industry if its made dirt-cheap and high-powered,which it can be.just the watch industry alone is a multimillion dollar enterprise.
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the amp-hour ratings of such type of cell will depend on surface area of electrodes.thus if i were to use e.g. sponge electrodes i would get electrical current and voltage for much longer time than if i used foil electrodes.theoreticaly i could power an ipod or radio for an hour or two with sufficiently compressed powder electrodes and when the cell runs flat,just leave it for eg.30minutes to recharge.the speed of recharge depends entirely on chemical components.the original karpen system recharges itself in seconds after each discharge,its a quasi-capacitor-redox cell.we up the voltage by putting many cells in series pile,we up the current by surface area compression,like any cell.
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hello profitis,
athough I agree to the necessity of a budget to bring any techique into being we here are in an open overunity-forum and one of the main feature of this forum is open-source. But of course this is up to you
to share as much as you like, no one will press or force you to share the secrets you have found.
But remember: approval by third party is a key to any scientific research. It saves time, provides the certainty
of your results so far... and of course you are at the risk to loose what you have found to a third party.
No, I have not got the financial means at this moment but ... who knows what will be in the future ?
regards
Kator01
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true @kator,its a game of dice taking something from an idea into practice and profiting from it but luckily i have mastery over the concept. the concept gives birth to literally hundreds of possibilities so a corporation may want me very close to its bosom thus i can spring two new battery concepts every week if im paid to do so.my contribution here is to at least set the record straight about karpen,s discovery.
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guess I should join others already working on this thing :)
I saw this video earlier this evening from Robert Murray-Smith on a karpen pile using graphene sheets and aluminum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbHctc5V7hI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbHctc5V7hI)
I have some graphite plates laying around from a while ago I was going to use them for a HHO cell, until I realized I needed a lot more current than I was willing to produce, but anyway, I still have them. So I broken one up in chunks and used some aluminum sheeting I had laying around... and instead of calcium carbonate just used calcium bicarbonate (without previously cooking it at 200F for an hour to boil off the extra carbon-dioxide http://chemistry.about.com/od/makechemicalsyourself/a/Sodium-Carbonate-From-Baking-Soda.htm (http://chemistry.about.com/od/makechemicalsyourself/a/Sodium-Carbonate-From-Baking-Soda.htm) )
Each cell I made was .5V approx, so I ended up with 8 making 4.1V total, which is enough to light one of these white LEDs that I have. I included a 22k resistor in series so I could get a measurable voltage across the resistor and earlier I got .190V and on the video was getting 0.182-0.183 range... 8.2uA-8.6uA.Now to see how galvanic this thing is... I'll leave it laying around for a week or so (though I'll have to keep adding water)...
Hour 1 video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNWfhnf3jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNWfhnf3jpg)
Electronegativity of Al = 1.6; C = 2.66; (Cu is 1.9)
(another replication https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAixQ276YKo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAixQ276YKo) ibpointless2)
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I started with a single container with water and baking soda to test rough functionality. Found 0.5V, so I got 3 bowls and split out some liquid into each and made a series of cells to get to 1.5V, so I could use my old red LED test I did before with crystal cell... I got the light to flicker slightly. even across a 100ohm resistor it would only flicker for a moment before going out. I added another bowl, and was able to get the LED to stay on dimly. Added 2 more bowls and the LED stayed on more brightly. Got a white LED and added 2 more bowls... so adding bowls(cells) increases available current.
Maybe I should get some small plastic baggies and make cells that are more sealed... maybe by the weekend.
MarkE replied on my old thread that it would take a while at such low current to get a good reaction. Replaced white LED with red LED, voltage across resistor went up to 400mV, so it's up to 16uA, removed the resistor, leaving to sit.
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What is your anode(-) made of and what electrolyte are you using @d3xor
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What is your anode(-) made of and what electrolyte are you using @d3xor
graphite plates ....one up in chunks ... aluminum sheeting ... calcium bicarbonate
the aluminum is negative
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This is galvanic corrosion without a doubt.aluminum is way too reactive to use in a karpen cell you will see gradual pitting of the anode under microscope.I'm going to give you one of my secrets to try out if you want d3xor then you will be ahead of murray on youtube but you will need to get hold of a chunk of pyrolusite mineral(MnO2) and large piece of nickel coin or spoon or sheet.
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This is galvanic corrosion without a doubt.aluminum is way too reactive to use in a karpen cell you will see gradual pitting of the anode under microscope.I'm going to give you one of my secrets to try out if you want d3xor then you will be ahead of murray on youtube but you will need to get hold of a chunk of pyrolusite mineral(MnO2) and large piece of nickel coin or spoon or sheet.
Hmm Yes I might see that.
also it seems I can just use native tap water.
might be able to observe a faster decay with thin strips of aluminum foil
Edit: can you give me a rough sketch of the reaction and products?
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Of the Al cell or the MnO2 cell d3x0r
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Of the Al cell or the MnO2 cell d3x0r
the aluminum... was trying to do some searching on it.
MnO2 is not something I'll be able to try; lack of incentive to purchase... the other I have the peices laying around
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2Al + 3H2O = Al2O3 + 3 H2...and also 2Al + 6O(from air) = 2Al2O3...Al2O3 then dissolves slightly in bicarbonates to form aluminates.not enough incentive to get hold of pyrolusite? You don't want to be the first to violate kelvins law on youtube? It gives more of a kick than karpens original.
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The MnO2 cell gives about 3-4 times more power than karpens gold/plat cell.
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Change my search terms from calcion-carbonate reaction to just 'aluminum carbon battery' and found immediately instructable videos using various things... even a Aluminum air battery - http://sciencegeekgirl.com/documents/TPT_Salty_Science.pdf (http://sciencegeekgirl.com/documents/TPT_Salty_Science.pdf) ... that just uses the O2 from air...
Although using graphene ink on Al foil would make a nice compact stack ... hundred squares could get 50V battery :) only... 50uA... still need 400 of those to get what I need for amps :)
Hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_dioxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_dioxide) - first paragraph....
Manganese(IV) oxide is the inorganic compound with the formula MnO2. This blackish or brown solid occurs naturally as the mineral pyrolusite, which is the main ore of manganese and a component of manganese nodules. The principal use for MnO2 is for dry-cell batteries, such as the alkaline battery and the zinc-carbon battery.[2] MnO2 is also used as a pigment and as a precursor to other manganese compounds, such as KMnO4. It is used as a reagent in organic synthesis, for example, for the oxidation of allylic alcohols.
that's not a thermal cell either :p
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You forgot to google the words: 'fuel cell O2 catalyst MnO2' d3xor (-: Its a inverted-thermal cell.no need for a temperature gradient.
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Reactions for the cell in NaOH electrolyte: anode(nickel,totaly inert) 2OH-> O + H2O + 2e- and at the MnO2catalyst cathode: O + H2O + 2e- > 2OH-
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Voltage for this cell calculated same as for karpens original: E= RT/nF ln kb1/kf1 - RT/nF ln kb2/kf2. K is rate constant of forward/backward reactions for O + H2O + 2e- >< 2OH-
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(rechargable; said 'oxygen charging')https://www.aiche.org/resources/chemeondemand/conference-presentations/novel-wave-shaped-mno2-cathode-supported-partially-porous-nickel-layer-fuel-cellbattery
2014/07/03
http://fuelcellsworks.com/news/2014/07/03/insights-from-nature-for-more-efficient-water-splitting-mineral-based-catalyst-efficiently-splits-water-into-oxygen-and-hydrogen-ions-at-neutral-ph/
I like the idea; it has been a long time since chemistry, but I remember liking it for it's algebraic simplicity :)
Nickel... "nickel catalyst hydrogenation" started as 'nickel catalysis of hydroxide' but turned out 'nickel-hydroxide' is used as a catalyst.
Hydrogenation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogenation
Still need to do more digging
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Your getting closer d3xor.did you know that nickel is so inert in alkali solution that its sometimes used as an oxygen catalyst in fuel cells? It coats with impenetrable Ni(OH)2 layer. You must dip your pyrolusite in HCl and warm for a few minutes to pit it with massive surface area.you must electroplate your nickel with nickel-black for area there.I get roughly 50-100micro-amp per mm2 pyrolusite!!! What's a square cm going to do..I can only get hold of tiny samples here.if you can get hold of large tantalum capacitors you can crack the shell off and get a nice size block of solid pyrolusite.
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Large tantalum caps are used in the power circuit for computer hard-drives.usually yellow blocks stuck on circuit board in groups,each one about the size of half a pinkie-nail
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Just because you can write a chemical equation doesn't make it so, however :)
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/411382/platinum-free-fuel-cell/ ( a good summary fuel cells, and why they prefer an acidic environment vs a basic one)
"The nickel catalysts used in previously developed alkaline fuel cells weren’t very efficient because they quickly got oxidized, so alkaline fuel cells have used the same platinum catalysts as their acidic counterparts. The Wuhan researchers created an anode coated with nickel nanoparticles decorated with chromium that’s more tolerant to oxidation than previous nickel catalysts." [/size]
[/size]
so apparently the O generated at the nickel anode likes to stick to the nickel instead of remaining free[/size]
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Google shopping for 'pyrolusite crystal' (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS519US519&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8#q=pyrolusite+crystal&tbm=shop&spd=4594475026209141150)
can get pretty big chunks... don't add "-ebay" though cause that fails :)
Several listings come back as "PYROLUSITE crystals in a geode"
Geodes are remnant ancient tech, you know? :) They really can't possibly occur naturally. (just my theory)
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Black Nickel - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_electroplating#Black_nickel "Black nickel plating is a typically plated on brass, bronze, or steel in order to produce a non-reflective surface.[7] This type of plating is used for decorative purposes and does not offer much protection" ? Nickel ammonium sulfate NiSO4·(NH4)2SO4·6H2O ? what's that leave behind? some sort of NiO?
(plastic black nickel plated...)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Stopper-With-Lid-Cord-Ends-Lock-Stopper-Plastic-Black-Nickel-Plated-Toggle-/350963657334?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=620216186668&hash=item51b7106a76
Does the nickel actually have to be a core of nickel if it's electroplated there's no actual nickel surface?
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Fuel cells are either alkaline or acidic.MnO2 is used in alkaline fuel cell catalysts because it is totaly inert in alkali.try it d3xor,its up to you.one thing I assure you,it will last forever and a day (-:.no corrosion or loss of power in a sealed system.
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nickel anode must be whole nickel straight through,not plated.you can substitute a piece of silver 925 jewellery for nickel.etch it in nitric acid before use to roughen.
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A nickel mesh can also be extracted from a NiMH battery.the mesh is surrounded by black NiO2 and must be shaken a bottle with lots HCl pool acid to take off the coat and expose clean nickel mesh.
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ya closer...; I'd like to see evidence of the catalyst effects... like I didn't see nickel used to de-base (I know it's uhmm... alkafy) an alkaline solution... (remove OH should make it more neutral)... maybe something like to precipitate K from KOH...
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I make a few more experiments on Al-C battery, got some distilled water. Immediately the voltage and current was higher; putting in weak Ca(HCO3)2 solution is lower output.
I'm going to make more like a cell-thing as opposed to electrodes sitting in bowls of water. Going to use aluminum foil instead of aluminum sheet so it decays faster. Now I know that AlmOn is a insulator, so having that disolved by calcium carbonate will extend the usable life some, yes?
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Years ago Boeing developed a long life Al O2 battery for dealing with the mine shaft gap. IIRC, they went mildly acidic with the electrolyte. I think it was dilute citric acid.
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Years ago Boeing developed a long life Al O2 battery for dealing with the mine shaft gap. IIRC, they went mildly acidic with the electrolyte. I think it was dilute citric acid.
Hmm that looks like a couple of random things thrown together...
"mineshaft gap" from Dr Strangelove https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybSzoLCCX-Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybSzoLCCX-Y)
"Sadeski notes that, within ten months of the activation of the doomsday device, the surface of the earth will be uninhabitable. Dr. Strangelove recommends that the President gather several hundred thousand people, with a female-to-male ratio of 10 to 1, to live in deep mineshafts in order to escape the radiation, and to then institute a breeding program to allow the United States to repopulate the surface after a hundred years have passed. Gen. Turgidson warns that the Soviets will likely do the same, and worries about a "mineshaft gap.""
What does boeing have to do with mining?
Aluminum-air battery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery) ...
can make such a thing with a layer of paper towel, a peice of aluminum and a peice of carbon (tested, success) with no electrolyte (well previously the paper towel was soaked in water/calcium bicarbonate, so it is probably slightly humid still.
http://www.gizmag.com/aluminium-air-battery-could-extend-ev-range-by-1000-km/32454/ (http://www.gizmag.com/aluminium-air-battery-could-extend-ev-range-by-1000-km/32454/)
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Lasersaber air battery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx_wjlMO3OI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx_wjlMO3OI) - carbon tube wrapped with paper towel and a magnesium strip. Think he eventually submersed this in oil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG8qyN7y-PE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG8qyN7y-PE) (2)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVSrm8q4G_8 older aluminum air-carbon battery from robert murray
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Here's for you d3xor http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201301066/abstract there's tons of studies on the oxygen evolution reaction in alkali on nickel
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Thanx profitis; but they say that the carbon part of it is important... are they just overcomplicating it?
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Re: my higher power aluminum-air battery
1) did I mention that plain distilled worked? Pretty sure the cup was fairly dry and free from any amount of other minerals of any quantitty.
2) I found radio shack had a conductive glue (sodium silicate with high concentration of graphene powder). Used the glue to glue aluminum foil to one side of graphite plate squares. Used some 1/8" diameter dowel rod as a temporary separator in a corner molding and used hot-glue to coat 3 sides, leaving 1 side open. In theory it looked like it should work... a) at one point a side was somewhat tacky and stuck to a surface separating from the carbon plates b) even though it looked like a solid seal it was highly leaky.... have to come up with a different scheme; maybe silicon.
graphite - gap - aluminum-graphite - gap - .....(repeat - aluminum-graphite - gap - ) - aluminum; each (carbon-gap-aluminum) should be closed to have its own water
altogether should be like a 15V battery.
In theory I've baked a few tablespoons of baking soda into calcium carbonate; don't really have a way to test it... other than small amounts dissolve entirely so it's not just calcium :)
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Your getting closer d3xor.did you know that nickel is so inert in alkali solution that its sometimes used as an oxygen catalyst in fuel cells? It coats with impenetrable Ni(OH)2 layer. You must dip your pyrolusite in HCl and warm for a few minutes to pit it with massive surface area.you must electroplate your nickel with nickel-black for area there.I get roughly 50-100micro-amp per mm2 pyrolusite!!! What's a square cm going to do..I can only get hold of tiny samples here.if you can get hold of large tantalum capacitors you can crack the shell off and get a nice size block of solid pyrolusite.
So to go back to this point...
does the prolusite have to be solid? Or can it be a powder?
http://www.rexresearch.com/karpen/karpen.htm
"The electrodes can be formed of a mass of powders contained in bags or porous vessels, etc."
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Read this a confirmation of Karpen pile http://www.technologyreview.com/view/427140/graphene-battery-turns-ambient-heat-into-electric-current/ (http://www.technologyreview.com/view/427140/graphene-battery-turns-ambient-heat-into-electric-current/)
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1206/1206.3748.pdf (http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1206/1206.3748.pdf)
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Read this a confirmation of Karpen pile http://www.technologyreview.com/view/427140/graphene-battery-turns-ambient-heat-into-electric-current/ (http://www.technologyreview.com/view/427140/graphene-battery-turns-ambient-heat-into-electric-current/)
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1206/1206.3748.pdf (http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1206/1206.3748.pdf)
There are serious issues with the way that the experiments were conducted and how they reached their conclusions.
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I'm so glad you asked that question about them shoving carbon plus nickel together d3xor..if you look in karpens patent he gives an example suggestion of nickel with carbon.this is because oxgen gas spillover happens very nicely from carbon onto nickel improving catalyst activity if they are stuck 2gether.oxygen spillover is quite strong from MnO2 onto nickel.you must use solid chunks pyrolusite for best conductivity and power as it is slightly semiconductor.you must etch it with HCl for surface area otherwize power is small.what you can try is electroplating a layer of MnO2 onto graphite rod(from a battery,make sure its been dewaxed on a hotplate) as an anode and another graphite rod as cathode in a solution of MnSO4 and a few drops H2SO4.it must be rinsed thouroughly in warm water before use in the karpen cell.anode graphite:Mn2+ + 2H2O > MnO2 + 4H+ + 4e-,cathode graphite:4H+ + 4e- > 2H2
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Unfortunately Mark E is correct @neo.gold and silver in copper chloride or copper sulphate solution will result in a galvanic corrosion of the silver,however their concept is very good and probably can work under different circumstances.I don't know if they did this under nitrogen or air
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I'm so glad you asked that question about them shoving carbon plus nickel together d3xor..if you look in karpens patent he gives an example suggestion of nickel with carbon.this is because oxgen gas spillover happens very nicely from carbon onto nickel improving catalyst activity if they are stuck 2gether.oxygen spillover is quite strong from MnO2 onto nickel.you must use solid chunks pyrolusite for best conductivity and power as it is slightly semiconductor.you must etch it with HCl for surface area otherwize power is small.what you can try is electroplating a layer of MnO2 onto graphite rod(from a battery,make sure its been dewaxed on a hotplate) as an anode and another graphite rod as cathode in a solution of MnSO4 and a few drops H2SO4.it must be rinsed thouroughly in warm water before use in the karpen cell.anode graphite:Mn2+ + 2H2O > MnO2 + 4H+ + 4e-,cathode graphite:4H+ + 4e- > 2H2
The reaction at the end is the 'rinse with warm water'? which means electroplating Mn onto a graphite rod and not MnO2? Otherwise I'm confused, there's no cycle there...
http://www.newark.com/pdfs/techarticles/kemet/Replacing-MnO2-with-Conductive-Polymer-in-Tantalum-Capacitors.pdf
tantalum caps are actually sintered pellets not crystal...
was researching sources of MnO2, where it comes from, etc.. and it doesn't usually occur crystalline...
http://www.mindat.org/min-3318.html
Usually found as matte-black powdery to fibrous crusts, sometimes in botryoidal aggregates or columnar, more rarely as druzes of small prismatic to tabular, dark grey metallic crystals.
Morphology:Crystals are uncommon, either long or short prismatic parallel to [001] or equant; more typically found as earthy powder or fibrous aggregates as crusts on rocks; sometimes as botryoidal aggregates, more rarely as druses of microscopic crystals.
Never found as dendrites despite old literature. [The obsolete term "polianite" was once used to refer to crystalline pyrolusite, which was assumed to be a different species than earthy to crusty pyrolusite.]
Can get powders from sigma-aldrich; although they seem to be well overpriced on some things...
graphite stirring rod -12", 1/2" Diameter $4.32 (http://www.astrojewelry.com/product/155765/jewelry-supplies-tools-and-equipment/melting/stirring-rods/graphite-stirring-rod-12-graphite-rods-1-2-diameter/?utm_source=AJ-froogle_Product-Ads&utm_medium=JewelrySupplies&utm_campaign=AAJ81692&gclid=Cj0KEQjwur2eBRDtvMS0gIuS-dYBEiQANBPMR-bi-rOFGqGqMvrd8te7s0K18-eidD-Tj0hg7Zsf3WIaAuHA8P8HAQ)
sigma aldrich - 1mm diameter, 100mm length $200.10 (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/gf97921086?lang=en®ion=US)
22 Gauge Nickel Sheet 6 x 6 Inch $12.50 (https://www.etsy.com/listing/129587986/22-gauge-nickel-sheet-6-x-6-inch-47061?&utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_promoted&utm_campaign=supplies_low&gclid=Cj0KEQjwur2eBRDtvMS0gIuS-dYBEiQANBPMR-tmrvVYyQTOVwPoWwP5nqtrVmeQjn7SwlM0CgXMraEaArzQ8P8HAQ)
(onlinesciencemall.com)
Nickel Chloride - 10g $4.50 (http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/nickel-chloride-nickleous-laboratory-chemical-10-grams.html?utm_source=gpla&utm_campaign=ProductListingAds&gclid=Cj0KEQjwur2eBRDtvMS0gIuS-dYBEiQANBPMR200PjAfWphXADOYAdV9np4Sm-TvKYlbECV56Y_ci9IaAp1y8P8HAQ)
Hydrochloric - 12M; 30ml $8.75 (http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/hydrochloric-acid-concentrated-12m-lab-chemical.html) seems awfully concentrated... HCl 1L 0.2M $22.70 (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/fluka/38287?lang=en®ion=US) 30ml of 12M could make 1.8L of 0.2M...
MnCl hexahydrate(6H20?) 30g $5.25 (http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/magnesium-chloride-laboratory-chemical-reagent-30-grams.html?utm_source=gpla&utm_campaign=ProductListingAds&gclid=Cj0KEQjwur2eBRDtvMS0gIuS-dYBEiQANBPMRzWWR-KE5v2vYzz3p4nQSeGBMEbWhM5FTVuVhEuHXXEaApqp8P8HAQ)
so... some graphite stir rods... some chlorides for electroplating? This is looking like a fun project :)
Although it will probably fail overall like my polypropylene barium titanate+strontium titanate electret :)
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Platinum Plating Solution for tank plating 250ml £93.75
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No d3xor.after plating graphite with MnO2 just stream some hot water from the tap over it to rinse all the acid off.you won't have to go through too much trouble to make manganese chloride.if you take the MnO2 out of a cheap chinese non-alkaline battery(alive or dead),shake it with hot kettle water,let it sink to bottom of glass,throw out water,shake again with kettle water,let sink to bottom of glass,throw water out,take the black mud and throw it into conc hydrochloric pool acid(30% HCl) and warm it in testube.it will dissolve forming manganese chloride and chlorine gas(be careful,ventilation).this is then ready for MnO2 electroplating.a lot of chlorine will form at the graphite anode along with a high surface area MnO2 pitchblack layer.you will need 2 dewaxed graphite battery rods to do this electroplating.foryour nickel-plate solution just take 2 pieces nickel(two nickel meshes or coins) and shove them into dilute hydrochloric pool acid and pass dc current through them from a phone charger or battery.nickel will dissolve off the anode and plate grey-black onto other nickel cathode.you have to make sure your coins are mostly nickel tho Cu10%-Ni90% is fine.the mesh from NiMH or NiCd bats is pure nickel.etch both pieces nickel in pool acid by heating for a few mins before passing current
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If you do decide to order manganese chloride mix it with some swimmingpool sodium bisulphate(for ph balance from the harware store) and dissolve and electroplate.
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Just a status update on non-karpen pile :)
I reassembled my stack of carbon/aluminum plates using silicon glue.
Using just distilled water the voltage end-to-end is 20V and can drive 3 5V LEDs in series (not at full brightness of course).
Emptying that and adding 1 Tbsp calcium carbonate to 3/4 cup of water (approx) (and stirring for minutes until no more was going to dissolve) the voltage end-to-end is 1.62V, across 100k resistor is .230V (23uA), and cannot light a red 1.5V LED. The voltage immediately drops to 1.3V even with a 100ohm resistor; using 100k resistor doesn't drop voltage, but LED also does not light....
I had let it sit for a while and it built a charge to 2V. But once I shorted that with the LED to 1.3V goes up 1.6V quickly (even after a dead short) to over 2V in a minute or so... I guess the CaCO3 ends up inhibiting the reaction.
I've been powering my kacher torch for 17 hours on 2 AAA batteries with 15-20mA draw. When I had a hand crank generator (one of the leads broke and Isn't practical to fix; well actually with this new conductive glue maybe I can manage something) it generated 12V and 350mA, which was almost reasonable to charge a supercap to power the light... but 350/15 is only 20:1 ... so 1 second charging = 20 seconds runtime... not entirely sure why there's such a huge runtime current... but that's a different matter.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec5Ydsf1dT8&list=UU_qnstrfqLzopNGSWP5lOng&index=2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec5Ydsf1dT8&list=UU_qnstrfqLzopNGSWP5lOng&index=2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYXzzTSJATU (lots of various combinations ... nickel mno2 for instance)
dry pile
MnO2 & aluminum or zinc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamboni_pile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamboni_pile)
http://amasci.com/emotor/duluc.html (http://amasci.com/emotor/duluc.html)
". Of course this is simply a Voltaic Pile, a multi-cell electrochemical battery, albiet one with output potential in the range of kilovolts. Each cell used nearly-dry paper as electrolyte, with zinc foil for one electrode and silver foil as the other. "
SOME DRY-PILE HOMEWORK PROBLEMS:
If the Franklin's Bell constitutes a capacitance of maybe 5 picofarad (5E-12 Farad,) and if it is connected to a 1KV constant voltage battery, how small must the battery's internal resistance be in order to recharge the capacitance of the bell device several times per second? The minimum resistance in ohms may suprise you, it is very high and should easily be achieved even by a stack of non-moist paper disks. A Dry Pile won't run if its paper is totally dessicated, but usual environmental humidity is enough to keep it working.
A 1.5v AA cell can provide about .5 ampere for 1 hour before being exhausted. If the Dry Pile has about the same energy density as a double-A cell and is about 30 times larger in volume, how long will it be able to operate the Franklin's Bell at a recharge rate of several times per second? The answer in years is impressive. These devices were called "Electric Perpetum Mobile." While not truly perpetual, they could outlast their creators by quite a few centuries!
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Hi d3xor.can you point out where MnO2/nickel was used and what electrolyte was used for it please.
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Hi d3xor.can you point out where MnO2/nickel was used and what electrolyte was used for it please.
Sorry; I guess I wasn't watching 100%, he brushed through some that he had tried http://youtu.be/VYXzzTSJATU?t=16m20s (http://youtu.be/VYXzzTSJATU?t=16m20s) but didn't measure the nickel
photopaper, gum arabic as binding agent, dunno if it was plate/foil nickel or nickel powder in arabic like the zinc etc... air I guess
they were all dry-pile, which is just really low oxidizing rate stuff... he said http://youtu.be/VYXzzTSJATU?t=17m17s (http://youtu.be/VYXzzTSJATU?t=17m17s) a full cell... but not function ...
caustic potash was probably with nickel/mno2
There's a 1.01 multiplier I guess...
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If caustic potash was used with MnO2/Ni it is absolutely not galvanic corrosion in that particular case @D3xor
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Dear profitus,
This is off topic post and I wonder if you could think about this before you answer.
I would like to build an (oxygen) Karpen’s cell of some sort using the Pb / PbO2
case / frame / paste / structure / carcass of a flooded sulfuric acid/lead battery *but*
minus the sulfuric acid liquid. So I would remove the H2SO4 electrolyte that comes
with the battery rinse / purge the cells and then add the electrolyte that you recommend.
This can also be accomplished through the purchase of an over the counter "dry charged"
battery where the acid electrolyte comes in separated containers from the battery frame.
My Goal:
The goal would be some small but usable electrical power output but *without* charging
the battery to put energy into it. Obviously I am attempting to make somewhat
usable OU amounts of power without galvanic chemical changes to the batteries
lead frame from attempting this.
Obviously; I would not expect anywhere near the power of a standard lead
acid cell and I would acquiesce to depolarizing the battery in pulses to use it.
Also I recognize that this would be a potentially highly contaminated
environment in these cells because at least the lead oxide paste is apparently
initially made from sulfuric acid. Also there is calcium and other metal alloys
used in the making the lead metal plates of the battery plates.
The positive aspects of such a battery:
A twelve volt battery would give me 6 x times the output voltage of a single battery cell.
I can increase electrode area therefore the current substantially by using commercially
available larger 2VDC AL cells. I would expect that there would not be cell corrosion
or sulfurization of cells because the lack of sulfur in the weak electrolyte. Also the wear
on the lead frame of the battery would be substantially minimal with the lower expected
cell power.
I know that there is something called a water battery which already exists which uses a
drinkable water electrolyte to produce small amount of power. Hopefully a Karpen’s cell
could allow me to do better than that in terms of electrical power output.
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Is the above possible?, what electrolyte should be tried?, what chemistry steps should I use?,
should it use a polarization charge?, should the battery cell caps be sealed?, What sort of
result can / should I expect?
Question; would it be possible to electroplate the lead plate by temporarily putting
electroplating solution into the cells?
I would like to build a semi-permanent oscillating pendulum using the output of these
batteries, which would use the well-endowed weight of the lead batteries as its
suspended plumb mass. This would agitate the heck out of the chemical system too.
Thank you for your consideration!
:S:MarkSCoffman
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There are various metal plus oxygen cells that have been experimented with and/or developed over the years. The wikipedia article on metal air batteries is minimal but there are lots of papers elsewhere on the internet.
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I'm afraid you will get no power from sulfuric-lead-air systems that are truly karpen markscoffman.they are all galvanic corrosion.if you shove a lead plate and a carbon plate into sulfuric under air you get a nice slow pulsy corrosion that can go on for quite a while but eventualy comes to zero.what you want to do is construct my suggested MnO2/nickel/air system in a pile and then seal that off.that will be permanent power for longer than you or me is alive.if built right,using sliced/etched pyrolusite rock tiles, it is capable of 2 or 3(or more??) times karpens original.use Na2CO3 electrolyte for best results.use thin nichrome wire within the cell as connectors.
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Infact,if you build the MnO2/nickel/air variety in multi- compartmentised case like the lead-acid case, with just enough electrolyte to half-cover the MnO2 plates and completely submerge the nickel plates,it will boost power further.use a empty plastic tool,screw,nut,bolt compartmentiser for more compartments.
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Thank you for your gracious response profitis.
I will consider this.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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Sure thing markscoffman.do not use cardboard,paper,starch or any organic material as electrolyte holders in such piles.they will disintergrate and provide fuel which is not what we want.use pure nylon,polyester,fiberglass,asbestos fluffs as seperators soaked with minimal electrolyte for porosity.use silicone inbetween each couple to isolate one couple from the next.electrolyte must not seep inbetween couples if your going to build piles.
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Here's the ideal.compartmentized.space for air.all nickel must be pure industrial nickel sheets or meshes etched and then coated with nickel grey or black(not too finely black).all nickel electrodes must be rested totaly submerged in a shallow pool of Na2CO3 electrolyte in direct exposure to open air for at least 3days to render totaly passive prior to use.the final cells reactions: anode: 4OH-> O2 + 2H2O + 2e- cathode: O2 + 2H2O + 2e- > 4OH- voltage of each cell RT/nF ln kf1/kb1(anode)-RT/nF ln kf2/kb2(cathode) where kf and kb are rate constants of the forward and backward reactions for the oxygen equilibrium at each electrode respectively.
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Sorry.slight mistake: ANODE: 4OH- > O2 + 2H2O + 4e- CATHODE: O2 + 2H2O + 4e- > 4OH-
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profitis, rather than pyrolucite which is a natural mineral, would not it make more sense to use high purity EDM.
And why not put the EDM on a pure manganese wire grid mesh, turns out that they make that, lets say with the
**O2 method of using a MnO2 paste? Happen to know of any good binders than would allow the porosity necessary
to allow required access to the MnO2 while holding it to the mesh? This would allow nice big cell plates to be constructed
right off the bat. How about some silver/indium silver bearing solder for connecting the electrical leads to the plates?
:S:MarkSCoffman
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It can be electrodeposited onto titanium sheet http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2fbf01092606 which at the same time passivates the titanium.it can also be deposited onto titanium via pyrolysis(heating) of a solution of Mn(NO3)2 spread ontop the sheet which decomposes straight into MnO2 and NO2 gas.I don't know if I can trust passivity of deposition onto manganese metal but its worth a try.electrodeposition onto manganese metal in alkaline solution is very easy,just caustic soda solution is all that is needed with manganese sheet as anode,carbon as cathode.
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Its best to use solid slices pyrolusite rock because this will give greatest voltage disparity.impurities in pyrolusite won't cause a problem(silicates,Fe2O3,) so it is ok for use.check out the conductivity of pyrolusite http://www.researchgate.net/publication/226542715_study_of_the_semi-conducting_properties_of_pyrolusite
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If you build a big one please show it here @markscoffman because I haven't built anything beyond bottlesize cap.by the looks of the current(30microamp) at the top of a discharge burst shown here in this snapshot it is capable of quite a punch.the blackened nickel here is only about 0.5cm2 and the MnO2 is 3mmx2mm (from a tantalum cap).indium-silver solder under alkaline conditions I'm not sure about.check to see if it affects voltage negatively.nichrome wire used minimaly is okdoke.
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And its a slam-dunk for the oxygen catalyst spillover mechanism in the above cell.. http://www.researchgate.net/profile/biswarup_satpati2/publication/258059860_facile_preparation_of_Ni%28OH%/292-MnO2_hybrid_material_and_its_application_in_the_electrocatalytic_oxidation_of_hydrazine/links/0deec5260e0e4b67b9000000 ...the effectiveness of a hybrid mix of MnO2/Ni(OH)2 as oxidation catalyst due to oxygen spillover from MnO2 onto Ni(OH)2 which is on the surface of our anode.please note:it will not work under argon or nitrogen
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Correction for previous link;
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/258059860
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Thanks markscoffman. Here's more specific examples for Nickel addition to manganese oxides in alkaline sol for improved oxygen catalysis.. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/s0013468612020361 and also here a direct reference to nickel doping of Manganese oxides in alkali for drasticly improved oxygen catalysis http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp0647986
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Here titanium metal is cathodic vs platinum wire in alkaline sol.oxygen spillover going from TiO2 onto platinum.it can also happen in reverse direction if you use sponge platinum.
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This must be documented here too.nickel hydroxide coat ontop graphite(prepared via pyrolysis of Ni(NO3)2 coat and subsequent reduction of NiO2 coat) as anode vs MnO2 as cathode in Na2CO3 sol under air.please note:this will not work under nitrogen or argon.proves beyond all doubt zero chemical combustion or corrosion going on here.I will personaly thrash any single scientist who dare claims to be the discoverer/inventor of this profitis cell.
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Good news for those who want to build a nickel/MnO2/air karpen..no need to go through all the trouble of plating nickel with nickel black.a simple etch in warm pool acid will do.voltage is higher using etched as opposed to blackened nickel(to do with surface work functions)
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Mno2 deposit on steel via pyrolysis of Mn(NO3)2
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Minute current bursts with iron vs MnO2.massive current bursts with nickel vs MnO2 ontop iron.
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And nickel hydroxide ontop graphite vs MnO2 ontop steel.this overwhelming evidence for oxygen spillover effect.iron is forbidden to be cathodic vs ni(oh)2 or vs graphite.
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Difference in potentials between nickel vs MnO2 coated on pt and pt wire.yet the standard potential of pt is higher than MnO2 in alkali.
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MnO2 coat on platinum foil (via pyrolysis of Mn(NO3)2 coat) giving highest power densities due to zero passive layer between MnO2 and Pt metal.also due to inertness of Pt.it is closest thing to pure pyrolusite tile indicating that etched pyrolusite tile(etched with hcl) will give highest power densities by far.
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Titanium is forbidden to be cathodic against nickel in alkaline sol.this will definitely not happen under argon.
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A better shot (top of discharge curve)
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Not karpen...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_4NhRZBANc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_4NhRZBANc)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfIq83YE_G4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfIq83YE_G4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG1e6lY-c0g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG1e6lY-c0g)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FohNxkSE_78 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FohNxkSE_78)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9shjD2uHp8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9shjD2uHp8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LButuaS2rcM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LButuaS2rcM)
something... some vague clues about it in the begining...
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Very very perplexing d3xor.he says rare-earth oxides treated with HF acid.your going to get certain lanthanum,neodymium type crystal fluorides like this.this appears to be a moray-type thing going on in hutcison's lamp but he doesn't tell us much.I wish I had a small one of those attatched to my cellfone.hutchison is a coolcat I like his artistic flair
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I wouldn't rule out solid-state oxygen catalytic spillover in his device either.he may have mastered the rates of this process.
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Hot on hutchison trail http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2010/jm/c0jm00031k picture getting clearer for resonant up-conversion
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Profitis, I had the chance to try out one of these MnO2/Ni 'Karpens'. Mno2 deposited onto Pt by an electrolytic method in electrochemical papers (MnSO4 pH 6.4 0.75V 0.4C per sqcm). I came upon this investigation as I was trying to make a pseudocapacitor of considerable capacity to replace the shiny Pt, which, in the oxygen karpen acts as a pseudocapacitor. The platenized Pt electrode measured 100x more capacitance than the shiny electrode, and it would have been more effective to make the other electrode either more massive or have more pseudocapacitance. 0.1MNa2SO4 was found suitable with the Pt/Pt karpen and is what the MnO2 paper used for the pseudocapacitor.
The MnO2 electrode developed a massive capacitance, however, it also developed a more positive potential wrt the neutral electrolyte than either of the two platinums. This is not what you want in a cell which is supposed to reduce oXygen only. Further investigations also showed that PbO2 (anode from H2SO4) and NiO/OH electrode (anode from KOH), all develop higher potentials than the Pt electrodes. In other words, there is no guarantee that the cell doesnt end up acting as a real cell, with the oxide itself producing all, or some of the current as it reduces back to metal or a lower oxidation state.
Is the oxide being reduced or oxygen??
In another setup, Nickel metal was tested in the neutral electrolyte (Na2SO4, which is perfect for the MnO2 deposit as a pseudo cap) as a replacement for the shiny Pt. It developed a very negative potential, which already pointed to either a great dislike to the oxygen (great) in solution, or, corrosion of the Nickel. To test this, a small 100uA current was passed overnight in the 0.1M Na2SO4 with nickel electrodes. In the morning blueish/green Ni(OH)2 was found under the negative electrode, indicating the travel of Ni ions from the positive.
Acidic electrolytes cant be used here with the MnO2 and Ni, and alkaline ones kill the Pt/Pt Karpens, but I think over days/wekks/months, you will find that the MnO2/Ni, even assuming that the MnO2 is not being reduced, will equilibrate, as the NiO/OH builds up on the electrode and shifts the potential more positive even in alkaline electrolytes.
Not saying 100% that the profits cell doesn't work, but the use of nickel as the anode requires an oxide/hydroxide to build up for protection. This will eventually shift its potential up towards that of the MnO2, killing the battery. The MnO2 might be a great replacement for the black Pt, if it indeed reduces Oxygen.
I plan to test such a cell made to profitis's specs more in depth for a few months to discover the truth, for now a small Pt/Pt 1N H2SO4 Karpen is being tested , being discharged every 40 seconds for one month. So far, its behaving..
;) ;)
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"Not saying 100% that the profits cell doesn't work, but the use of nickel as the anode requires an oxide/hydroxide to build up for protection. This will eventually shift its potential up towards that of the MnO2, killing the battery."
Mmmm pomodoro I was quite the infant knowledge-wise at the time when I flung that cell onto here yet later I discovered naively not necessarily incorrect.the standard potential of the nio2/ni(oh)2 couple in alkali (nicad battery cathode) is sitting just above the o2 liberation potential so the fully-charged nio2/ni(oh)2 nicad cathode can oxidize alkaline water slowly liberating o2 until a fair portion of the nio2 downgrades to ni(oh)2.this is a problem in design of such batteries so they cram graphite in there to raise the overpotential for water oxidation to prevent o2 liberation.on pure nickel the reverse can ofcourse spontaneously take place,IF IT HAS TO.so that nickel anode in my dedsign will infact auto-raise its oxidation state up to match that of the mno2/o2 potential in alkaline media.it can even surpass it hahahaha.alot will depends on your electrode grain-size,smoothness,depth in electrolyte etc etc so you can get this particular cell to swing EITHER WAY dpending on physical state,additives,depth etc etc
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"for now a small Pt/Pt 1N H2SO4 Karpen is being tested , being discharged every 40 seconds for one month. So far, its behaving.."
This should continue to behave if totaly sealed off pomodoro.if the crystallographies haven't evened out by now I doubt that it will change
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Well, the idea of yours was a good one, and you did well with the limited equipment. The MnO2 electrode seems to be used in Oxygen Reduction Reaction s(ORR)ystems. Havent had time to read into it as yet, but there is plenty of info and it looks promising for the cathode.
A week of data on the karpen cell I have here was wasted as I noticed that the discharge intensity magically dropped when I disconnected it from the $5k data logger. Somehow the instrument was helping the shiny electrode along. Now the 2sqcm karpen still works but the recharge time is huge and the intensity miniscule. What I need is something like nickel but that does not dissolve or form oxides and has a low potential in oxygenated water..
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"What I need is something like nickel but that does not dissolve or form oxides and has a low potential in oxygenated water"
Do you have any fto on glass lying around?
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I don't personally. Have you tested the potential of such an electrode?
"What I need is something like nickel but that does not dissolve or form oxides and has a low potential in oxygenated water"
Do you have any fto on glass lying around?
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Haven't cheked it out but should resist oxidation,might make a good cathode instead of anode.try gold foil vs mno2 in alkali.I have tested Au/Mno2 but not for long time enough to determine if its constant
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This is entirely offtopic; and hopefully people are still getting notices here But :)
So there was this youtube guy
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnGRj0IYJXO7mBzQwp0peGQ
Tech Torr (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnGRj0IYJXO7mBzQwp0peGQ)
aka
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJTWwE70tFXMtITlMpj47_g
Experiments Lab (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJTWwE70tFXMtITlMpj47_g)[/color][/font]
which one of the videos he claims that isn't listed anymore
that it's just a carbon-steel spring deposited with tungsten or (I forget the other one)
Tunsten is often alloyed but rarely deposited
certain tunsten (TuS) tunsten sulfate is actually fairly magnetic
http://web.archive.org/web/20110303222309/http://www-d0.fnal.gov/hardware/cal/lvps_info/engineering/elementmagn.pdf
but the odd thing, is it's really a closed circuit; so it it somehow trapping magnetic flux and turning it into electron potential?
from a chemist ort of viewpoint
@profitis @et al.
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My opinion is that TechTorr is not an honest guy. For example he argues that his magnetic fan is real but he doesn't
show it. So I think he just fakes stuff with as little work as possible. I looked at the youtube video where he goes after
components of his resonant device and disassembles it pretty well. The only way I can see that he does this is by
applying some strong chemical electrolyte solution like lemon juice to the little white "insulator" pad. Which you notice
that he just balls up and shifts focus away from. Then a battery is formed between then nickel coating of that steel battery case
and then the spring which apparently he is now claiming is a special material. Then he pulls his video, and claims "suppression".
Besides, he is never going to get his stuff to really work, not without a looped extension cord in the circuit. From my study of
water batteries, Nickel+Tungsten (Wolfram) has the greatest electronegativity difference of common, non-combustible metals.
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O2|Co|[OH-][(Fe(CN)6)4-]|Ni|O2
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O2|Co3O4|(OH-)((Fe(CN)6)4-) C|O2
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8)
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Thinslice
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smitty
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Hi !
graphite electrode and carbon electrode - 0.2 Volt. (electrolyte information not preserved)
graphite electrode and silicon electrode 0.6 V (sulfuric acid electrolyte)
Continuous electric current and no signs of chemical reactions. Free energy.
Boris
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F.Y.I.
You can also Laser Ablate Kapton Tape and it appears to work quite well
(as a Graphene substrate).
Makes some pretty reasonable Super Caps - as the preliminary experiments show!
SL
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F.Y.I.
You can also Laser Ablate Kapton Tape and it appears to work quite well
(as a Graphene substrate).
Makes some pretty reasonable Super Caps - as the preliminary experiments show!
SL
Fine .
I try to publish simple and easily accessible technologies.
For example self-charging super capacitor patent UA115206U
https://overunity.com/19332/self-charging-ionistor-ua115206u/
This cell can use a wide range of materials from very affordable to very scarce and expensive. ( including graphene )
all redundant information within the document.
On average, a student of any country can do this in one lesson. :) :)
I think that on this site I have published enough useful technologies to give more time to fun :) :) :)
Boris