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Author Topic: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen  (Read 56767 times)

Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2014, 02:04:01 PM »
Hi d3xor.can you point out where MnO2/nickel was used and what electrolyte was used for it please.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2014, 02:04:01 PM »

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2014, 02:32:59 PM »
Hi d3xor.can you point out where MnO2/nickel was used and what electrolyte was used for it please.
Sorry; I guess I wasn't watching 100%, he brushed through some that he had tried http://youtu.be/VYXzzTSJATU?t=16m20s but didn't measure the nickel


photopaper, gum arabic as binding agent, dunno if it was plate/foil nickel or nickel powder in arabic like the zinc etc... air I guess
they were all dry-pile, which is just really low oxidizing rate stuff... he said http://youtu.be/VYXzzTSJATU?t=17m17s a full cell... but not function ...


caustic potash was probably with nickel/mno2

There's a 1.01 multiplier I guess...


Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2014, 10:13:07 PM »
If caustic potash was used with MnO2/Ni it is absolutely not galvanic corrosion in that particular case @D3xor

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2014, 09:31:14 PM »
Dear profitus,

This is off topic post and I wonder if you could think about this before you answer.

I would like to build an (oxygen) Karpen’s cell of some sort using the Pb / PbO2
case / frame / paste / structure / carcass of a flooded sulfuric acid/lead battery *but*
minus the sulfuric acid liquid.  So I would remove the H2SO4 electrolyte that comes
with the battery rinse / purge the cells and then add the electrolyte that you recommend.
This can also be accomplished through the purchase of an over the counter "dry charged"
battery where the acid electrolyte comes in separated containers from the battery frame. 

My Goal:
The goal would be some small but usable electrical power output but *without* charging
the battery to put energy into it. Obviously I am attempting to make somewhat
usable OU amounts of power without galvanic chemical changes to the batteries
lead frame from attempting this.

Obviously;  I would not expect anywhere near the power of a standard lead
acid cell and I would acquiesce to depolarizing the battery in pulses to use it.
Also I recognize that this would be a potentially highly contaminated
environment in these cells because at least the lead oxide paste is apparently
initially made from sulfuric acid. Also there is calcium and other metal alloys
used in the making the lead metal plates of the battery plates.
 
The positive aspects of such a battery:
A twelve volt battery would give me 6 x times the output voltage of a single battery cell.
I can increase electrode area therefore the current substantially by using commercially
available larger 2VDC AL cells. I would expect that there would not be cell corrosion
or sulfurization of cells because the lack of sulfur in the weak electrolyte. Also the wear
on the lead frame of the battery would be substantially minimal with the lower expected
cell power.

I know that there is something called a water battery which already exists which uses a
drinkable water electrolyte to produce small amount of power. Hopefully a Karpen’s cell
could allow me to do better than that in terms of electrical power output.   

----

Is the above possible?, what electrolyte should be tried?, what chemistry steps should I use?,
should it use a polarization charge?, should the battery cell caps be sealed?, What sort of
result can / should I expect?

Question;  would it be possible to electroplate the lead plate by temporarily putting
electroplating solution into the cells?

I would like to build a semi-permanent oscillating pendulum using the output of these
batteries, which would use the well-endowed weight of the lead batteries as its
suspended plumb mass. This would agitate the heck out of the chemical system too.

Thank you for your consideration!

:S:MarkSCoffman



Offline MarkE

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2014, 10:57:01 PM »
There are various metal plus oxygen cells that have been experimented with and/or developed over the years.  The wikipedia article on metal air batteries is minimal but there are lots of papers elsewhere on the internet.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2014, 10:57:01 PM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2014, 11:24:22 AM »
I'm afraid you will get no power from sulfuric-lead-air systems that are truly karpen markscoffman.they are all galvanic corrosion.if you shove a lead plate and a carbon plate into sulfuric under air you get a nice slow pulsy corrosion that can go on for quite a while but eventualy comes to zero.what you want to do is construct my suggested MnO2/nickel/air system in a pile and then seal that off.that will be permanent power for longer than you or me is alive.if built right,using sliced/etched pyrolusite rock tiles, it is capable of 2 or 3(or more??) times karpens original.use Na2CO3 electrolyte for best results.use thin nichrome wire within the cell as connectors.

Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2014, 11:47:07 AM »
Infact,if you build the MnO2/nickel/air variety in multi- compartmentised case like the lead-acid case, with just enough electrolyte to half-cover the MnO2 plates and completely submerge the nickel plates,it will boost power further.use a empty plastic tool,screw,nut,bolt compartmentiser for more compartments.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2014, 11:47:07 AM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2014, 06:55:48 PM »

Thank you for your gracious response profitis.
I will consider this.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2014, 10:41:41 AM »
Sure thing markscoffman.do not use cardboard,paper,starch or any organic material as electrolyte holders in such piles.they will disintergrate and provide  fuel which is not what we want.use pure nylon,polyester,fiberglass,asbestos fluffs as seperators soaked with minimal electrolyte for porosity.use silicone inbetween each couple to isolate one couple from the next.electrolyte must not seep inbetween couples if your going to build piles.

Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2014, 11:14:32 AM »
Here's the ideal.compartmentized.space for air.all nickel must be pure industrial nickel sheets or meshes etched and then coated with nickel grey or black(not too finely black).all nickel electrodes must be rested totaly submerged in a shallow pool of Na2CO3 electrolyte in direct exposure to open air for at least 3days to render totaly passive prior to use.the final cells reactions: anode:  4OH-> O2 + 2H2O + 2e- cathode: O2 + 2H2O + 2e- > 4OH- voltage of each cell RT/nF ln kf1/kb1(anode)-RT/nF ln kf2/kb2(cathode) where kf and kb are rate constants of the forward and backward reactions for the oxygen equilibrium at each electrode respectively.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2014, 11:14:32 AM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2014, 07:47:55 AM »
Sorry.slight mistake: ANODE: 4OH- > O2 + 2H2O  + 4e- CATHODE: O2 + 2H2O + 4e- > 4OH-

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2014, 05:25:14 AM »
profitis, rather than pyrolucite which is a natural mineral, would not it make more sense to use high purity EDM.

And why not put the EDM on a pure manganese wire grid mesh, turns out that they make that, lets say with the
**O2 method of using a MnO2 paste? Happen to know of any good binders than would allow the porosity necessary
to allow required access to the MnO2 while holding it to the mesh? This would allow nice big cell plates to be constructed
right off the bat.  How about some silver/indium silver bearing solder for connecting the electrical leads to the plates?

:S:MarkSCoffman


Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2014, 09:08:23 AM »
It can be electrodeposited onto titanium sheet http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2fbf01092606 which at the same time passivates the titanium.it can also be deposited onto titanium via pyrolysis(heating) of a solution of Mn(NO3)2 spread ontop the sheet which decomposes straight into MnO2 and NO2 gas.I don't know if I can trust passivity of deposition onto manganese metal but its worth a try.electrodeposition onto manganese metal in alkaline solution is very easy,just caustic soda solution is all that is needed with manganese sheet as anode,carbon as cathode.

Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2014, 09:15:30 AM »
Its best to use solid slices pyrolusite rock because this will give greatest voltage disparity.impurities in pyrolusite won't cause a problem(silicates,Fe2O3,) so it is ok for use.check out the conductivity of pyrolusite http://www.researchgate.net/publication/226542715_study_of_the_semi-conducting_properties_of_pyrolusite


Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2014, 09:27:15 AM »
If you build a big one please show it here @markscoffman because I haven't built anything beyond bottlesize cap.by the looks of the current(30microamp) at the top of a discharge burst shown here in this snapshot it is capable of quite a punch.the blackened nickel here is only about 0.5cm2 and the MnO2 is 3mmx2mm (from a tantalum cap).indium-silver solder  under alkaline conditions I'm not sure about.check to see if it affects voltage negatively.nichrome wire used minimaly is okdoke.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2014, 09:27:15 AM »

 

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