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Author Topic: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen  (Read 56899 times)

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2014, 03:06:08 AM »
ya closer...; I'd like to see evidence of the catalyst effects... like I didn't see nickel used to de-base (I know it's uhmm... alkafy) an alkaline solution... (remove OH should make it more neutral)... maybe something like to precipitate K from KOH...
----
I make a few more experiments on Al-C battery, got some distilled water.  Immediately the voltage and current was higher; putting in  weak Ca(HCO3)2 solution is lower output.
I'm going to make more like a cell-thing as opposed to electrodes sitting in bowls of water.  Going to use aluminum foil instead of aluminum sheet so it decays faster.  Now I know that AlmOn is a insulator, so having that disolved by calcium carbonate will extend the usable life some, yes?

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2014, 03:06:08 AM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2014, 03:36:51 AM »
Years ago Boeing developed a long life Al O2 battery for dealing with the mine shaft gap.  IIRC, they went mildly acidic with the electrolyte.  I think it was dilute citric acid.


Offline d3x0r

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2014, 04:45:14 AM »
Years ago Boeing developed a long life Al O2 battery for dealing with the mine shaft gap.  IIRC, they went mildly acidic with the electrolyte.  I think it was dilute citric acid.
Hmm that looks like a couple of random things thrown together...


"mineshaft gap"  from Dr Strangelove  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybSzoLCCX-Y 
"Sadeski notes that, within ten months of the activation of the doomsday device, the surface of the earth will be uninhabitable. Dr. Strangelove recommends that the President gather several hundred thousand people, with a female-to-male ratio of 10 to 1, to live in deep mineshafts in order to escape the radiation, and to then institute a breeding program to allow the United States to repopulate the surface after a hundred years have passed. Gen. Turgidson warns that the Soviets will likely do the same, and worries about a "mineshaft gap.""


What does boeing have to do with mining?


Aluminum-air battery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery  ...
can make such a thing with a layer of paper towel, a peice of aluminum and a peice of carbon (tested, success)  with no electrolyte (well previously the paper towel was soaked in water/calcium bicarbonate, so it is probably slightly humid still.


http://www.gizmag.com/aluminium-air-battery-could-extend-ev-range-by-1000-km/32454/
---
Lasersaber air battery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx_wjlMO3OI  - carbon tube wrapped with paper towel and a magnesium strip.  Think he eventually submersed this in oil.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG8qyN7y-PE (2)



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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVSrm8q4G_8 older aluminum air-carbon battery from robert murray

Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2014, 09:08:40 AM »
Here's for you d3xor http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201301066/abstract there's tons of studies on the oxygen evolution reaction in alkali on nickel


Offline d3x0r

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2014, 09:33:48 AM »
Thanx profitis; but they say that the carbon part of it is important... are they just overcomplicating it?


--------
Re: my higher power aluminum-air battery
1) did I mention that plain distilled worked?  Pretty sure the cup was fairly dry and free from any amount of other minerals of any quantitty.
2) I found radio shack had a conductive glue (sodium silicate with high concentration of graphene powder).  Used the glue to glue aluminum foil to one side of graphite plate squares.  Used some 1/8" diameter dowel rod as a temporary separator in a corner molding and used hot-glue to coat 3 sides, leaving 1 side open.  In theory it looked like it should work... a) at one point a side was somewhat tacky and stuck to a surface separating from the carbon plates b) even though it looked like a solid seal it was highly leaky.... have to come up with a different scheme; maybe silicon.


graphite - gap - aluminum-graphite - gap - .....(repeat - aluminum-graphite - gap - ) - aluminum; each (carbon-gap-aluminum) should be closed to have its own water
altogether should be like a 15V battery.


In theory I've baked a few tablespoons of baking soda into calcium carbonate; don't really have a way to test it... other than small amounts dissolve entirely so  it's not just calcium :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2014, 09:33:48 AM »
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Offline d3x0r

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2014, 10:18:59 AM »
Your getting closer d3xor.did you know that nickel is so inert in alkali solution that its sometimes used as an oxygen catalyst in fuel cells? It coats with impenetrable Ni(OH)2 layer. You must dip your pyrolusite in HCl and warm for a few minutes to pit it with massive surface area.you must electroplate your nickel with nickel-black for area there.I get roughly 50-100micro-amp per mm2 pyrolusite!!! What's a square cm going to do..I can only get hold of tiny samples here.if you can get hold of large tantalum capacitors you can crack the shell off and get a nice size block of solid pyrolusite.
So to go back to this point...
does the prolusite have to be solid?  Or can it be a powder?

http://www.rexresearch.com/karpen/karpen.htm
"The electrodes can be formed of a mass of powders contained in bags or porous vessels, etc."


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2014, 10:45:20 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2014, 11:37:03 AM »
Read this a confirmation of Karpen pile http://www.technologyreview.com/view/427140/graphene-battery-turns-ambient-heat-into-electric-current/
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1206/1206.3748.pdf
There are serious issues with the way that the experiments were conducted and how they reached their conclusions.

Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2014, 11:39:11 AM »
I'm so glad you asked that question about them shoving carbon plus nickel together d3xor..if you look in karpens patent he gives an example suggestion of nickel with carbon.this is because oxgen gas spillover happens very nicely from carbon onto nickel improving catalyst activity if they are stuck 2gether.oxygen spillover is quite strong from MnO2 onto nickel.you must use solid chunks pyrolusite for best conductivity and power as it is slightly semiconductor.you must etch it with HCl for surface area otherwize power is small.what you can try is electroplating a layer of MnO2 onto graphite rod(from a battery,make sure its been dewaxed on a hotplate) as an anode and another graphite rod as cathode in a solution of MnSO4 and a few drops H2SO4.it must be rinsed thouroughly in warm water before use in the karpen cell.anode graphite:Mn2+ + 2H2O > MnO2 + 4H+ + 4e-,cathode graphite:4H+ + 4e- > 2H2

Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2014, 11:54:24 AM »
Unfortunately Mark E is correct @neo.gold and silver in copper chloride or copper sulphate solution will result in a galvanic corrosion of the silver,however their concept is very good and probably can work under different circumstances.I don't know if they did this under nitrogen or air

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2014, 11:54:24 AM »
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Offline d3x0r

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2014, 01:49:10 PM »
I'm so glad you asked that question about them shoving carbon plus nickel together d3xor..if you look in karpens patent he gives an example suggestion of nickel with carbon.this is because oxgen gas spillover happens very nicely from carbon onto nickel improving catalyst activity if they are stuck 2gether.oxygen spillover is quite strong from MnO2 onto nickel.you must use solid chunks pyrolusite for best conductivity and power as it is slightly semiconductor.you must etch it with HCl for surface area otherwize power is small.what you can try is electroplating a layer of MnO2 onto graphite rod(from a battery,make sure its been dewaxed on a hotplate) as an anode and another graphite rod as cathode in a solution of MnSO4 and a few drops H2SO4.it must be rinsed thouroughly in warm water before use in the karpen cell.anode graphite:Mn2+ + 2H2O > MnO2 + 4H+ + 4e-,cathode graphite:4H+ + 4e- > 2H2
The reaction at the end is the 'rinse with warm water'?  which means electroplating Mn onto a graphite rod and not MnO2?  Otherwise I'm confused, there's no cycle there...

http://www.newark.com/pdfs/techarticles/kemet/Replacing-MnO2-with-Conductive-Polymer-in-Tantalum-Capacitors.pdf
tantalum caps are actually sintered pellets not crystal...

was researching sources of MnO2, where it comes from, etc.. and it doesn't usually occur crystalline...
http://www.mindat.org/min-3318.html
Usually found as matte-black powdery to fibrous crusts, sometimes in botryoidal aggregates or columnar, more rarely as druzes of small prismatic to tabular, dark grey metallic crystals.
Morphology:Crystals are uncommon, either long or short prismatic parallel to [001] or equant; more typically found as earthy powder or fibrous aggregates as crusts on rocks; sometimes as botryoidal aggregates, more rarely as druses of microscopic crystals.
Never found as dendrites despite old literature. [The obsolete term "polianite" was once used to refer to crystalline pyrolusite, which was assumed to be a different species than earthy to crusty pyrolusite.]

Can get powders from sigma-aldrich; although they seem to be well overpriced on some things...
graphite stirring rod -12", 1/2" Diameter $4.32

sigma aldrich - 1mm diameter, 100mm length $200.10

22 Gauge Nickel Sheet 6 x 6 Inch  $12.50

(onlinesciencemall.com)
Nickel Chloride - 10g $4.50
Hydrochloric - 12M; 30ml $8.75  seems awfully concentrated... HCl 1L 0.2M $22.70   30ml of 12M could make 1.8L of 0.2M...
MnCl hexahydrate(6H20?) 30g $5.25

so... some graphite stir rods... some chlorides for electroplating?  This is looking like a fun project :) 
Although it will probably fail overall like my polypropylene barium titanate+strontium titanate  electret :)

---
Platinum Plating Solution for tank plating 250ml £93.75

Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2014, 03:31:36 PM »
No d3xor.after plating graphite with MnO2 just stream some hot water from the tap over it to rinse all the acid off.you won't have to go through too much trouble to make manganese chloride.if you take the MnO2 out of a cheap chinese non-alkaline battery(alive or dead),shake it with hot kettle water,let it sink to bottom of glass,throw out water,shake again with kettle water,let sink to bottom of glass,throw water out,take the black mud and throw it into conc hydrochloric pool acid(30% HCl) and warm it in testube.it will dissolve forming manganese chloride and chlorine gas(be careful,ventilation).this is then ready for MnO2 electroplating.a lot of chlorine will form at the graphite anode along with a high surface area MnO2 pitchblack layer.you will need 2 dewaxed graphite battery rods to do this electroplating.foryour nickel-plate solution just take 2 pieces nickel(two nickel meshes or coins) and shove them into dilute hydrochloric pool acid and pass dc current through them from a phone charger or battery.nickel will dissolve off the anode and plate grey-black onto other nickel cathode.you have to make sure your coins are mostly nickel tho Cu10%-Ni90% is fine.the mesh from NiMH or NiCd bats is pure nickel.etch both pieces nickel in pool acid by heating for a few mins before passing current


Offline profitis

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2014, 03:53:05 PM »
If you do decide to order manganese chloride mix it with some swimmingpool sodium bisulphate(for ph balance from the harware store) and dissolve and electroplate.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2014, 07:46:16 AM »
Just a status update on non-karpen pile :)
I reassembled my stack of carbon/aluminum plates using silicon glue.
Using just distilled water the voltage end-to-end is 20V and can drive 3 5V LEDs in series (not at full brightness of course).
Emptying that and adding 1 Tbsp calcium carbonate to 3/4 cup of water (approx) (and stirring for minutes until no more was going to dissolve) the voltage end-to-end is 1.62V, across 100k resistor is .230V (23uA), and cannot light a red 1.5V LED.  The voltage immediately drops to 1.3V even with a 100ohm resistor; using 100k resistor doesn't drop voltage, but LED also does not light....
I had let it sit for a while and it built a charge to 2V.  But once I shorted that with the LED to 1.3V goes up 1.6V quickly (even after a dead short) to over 2V in a minute or so... I guess the CaCO3 ends up inhibiting the reaction.


I've been powering my kacher torch for 17 hours on 2 AAA batteries with 15-20mA draw.  When I had a hand crank generator (one of the leads broke and Isn't practical to fix; well actually with this new conductive glue maybe I can manage something) it generated 12V and 350mA, which was almost reasonable to charge a supercap to power the light... but 350/15 is only 20:1 ... so 1 second charging = 20 seconds runtime... not entirely sure why there's such a huge runtime current... but that's a different matter. 


Offline d3x0r

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2014, 07:13:44 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec5Ydsf1dT8&list=UU_qnstrfqLzopNGSWP5lOng&index=2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYXzzTSJATU (lots of various combinations ... nickel mno2 for instance)
dry pile
MnO2  & aluminum or zinc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamboni_pile


http://amasci.com/emotor/duluc.html


". Of course this is simply a Voltaic Pile, a multi-cell electrochemical battery, albiet one with output potential in the range of kilovolts. Each cell used nearly-dry paper as electrolyte, with zinc foil for one electrode and silver foil as the other. "



SOME DRY-PILE HOMEWORK PROBLEMS:
If the Franklin's Bell constitutes a capacitance of maybe 5 picofarad (5E-12 Farad,) and if it is connected to a 1KV constant voltage battery, how small must the battery's internal resistance be in order to recharge the capacitance of the bell device several times per second? The minimum resistance in ohms may suprise you, it is very high and should easily be achieved even by a stack of non-moist paper disks. A Dry Pile won't run if its paper is totally dessicated, but usual environmental humidity is enough to keep it working.

A 1.5v AA cell can provide about .5 ampere for 1 hour before being exhausted. If the Dry Pile has about the same energy density as a double-A cell and is about 30 times larger in volume, how long will it be able to operate the Franklin's Bell at a recharge rate of several times per second? The answer in years is impressive. These devices were called "Electric Perpetum Mobile." While not truly perpetual, they could outlast their creators by quite a few centuries!

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Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2014, 07:13:44 AM »

 

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