Cookies-law

Cookies help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
http://www.overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please leave this website now. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

Poplamp

poplamp

CCTool

CCTool

LEDTVforSale

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

OverUnity Book

overunity principles book

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 81888
  • *Latest: WilliamH

  • *Total Posts: 489698
  • *Total Topics: 14414
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 6
  • *Guests: 266
  • *Total: 272

Facebook

Author Topic: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen  (Read 56954 times)

Offline exnihiloest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« on: January 08, 2011, 12:20:57 PM »

This article stipulates that a Karpen's battery is still working after 60 years:
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2010/12/25/karpen-pile/

Vasilescu-Karpen, Romanian physicist, proposed batteries without chemical reactions. They are made from an ionic solution in contact either with two unreactive electrodes of different materials or of same material but one completely immersed and the other partially or with two identical electrodes in two non-miscible solutions in contact.

When the battery is producing a current, it becomes depolarized after a while. After being disconnected, it polarizes slowly, and the cycle can continue forever without chemical reaction or material consumption. Vasilesco-Karpen says that current consumption lowers the battery temperature, thus that energy is supplied by the environment (constituting a Maxwell's demon).

Vasilescu-Karpen seems to be a serious scientist. He has published numerous papers accepted by the official French Academy of Sciences and still readable in the archives. I have gathered some of them as well as its patent (sorry, all in French):
http://exvacuo.free.fr//div/Sciences/Experiences/Piles/
See particularly his papers of 1927.

I read also his more theoretical papers. Obviously he is not a crackpot. I did not find any refutation of his theory. So there are many reasons to think it could be very interesting to build and test different kinds of his batteries -I will try myself-, to see the magnitude of the supplied power and verify that we are really outside the framework of conventional batteries (in which the electrodes and/or electrolytes are consumed).



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1333
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2011, 06:43:55 PM »
I agree, either this has never been advanced to a useful device or it can never get any better than it is.
Seems odd with all the advancements in technology, this has never improved since it's concept in 1908?
But then, who would want something that pulled useful power from the environment for free! Of what value could that be? It would just put all the coal miners out of work.





Offline shylo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2011, 11:38:12 PM »
Hi all this sounds alot like what I have going right now ,maybe not though.I don't know French so no sense in looking at the links but, could either of you mybe describe cell construction ??Btw if it is perpetual I'm not so sure you could classify them as batteries............thanx ....shylo

Offline exnihiloest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 05:35:01 PM »
Hi all this sounds alot like what I have going right now ,maybe not though.I don't know French so no sense in looking at the links but, could either of you mybe describe cell construction ??Btw if it is perpetual I'm not so sure you could classify them as batteries............thanx ....shylo

Hi Shylo,

I have translated the patent for the group and kept the same format (using google translation that I have corrected, but remaining errors are possible).
Here it is:
Direct url:
http://tinyurl.com/3yodn5q

http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Experiences/Piles/
(File: N Vasilesco-Karpen - Pile permanente - FR577087A en.pdf)

I think we can try with any material for the electrodes or the electrolyte(s), the important point being that none reacts with others.



Offline shylo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2011, 06:30:13 PM »
Hi ex.,that tiny url wouldn't load it said there was some kind of error,thanx anyways."important point that none reacts with the others" not sure exactly what you mean by this??.....shylo

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2011, 06:30:13 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1333
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2011, 12:47:31 AM »
This could be something interesting to try but I'm thinking I could be somewhat over my head in building this. I have some large graphite blocks I could cut up for electrodes and the sodium hydroxide is just lye. Finding another solution (I assume it should be conductive also) that will not mix, and could work with another graphite electrode is merely trail and error for me.
I'm thinking a chemist would have a better understanding of conductive liquids and non reacting electrodes.
Anyone have any ideas on building these?
 

Offline Tempest

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2011, 01:15:44 AM »
I agree Lumen. I would love to know how this one works. I wonder if it would output more power if heated?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2011, 01:15:44 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline shylo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2011, 01:38:08 AM »
Hi all ,..I notice that my cells increase in both voltage and amperage if I appliy pressure or vibration ......This says to me that disruption of the aligned magnetic fields ,creates energy, but not ou because it took energy to disrupt the field in the first place..........shylo

Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1333
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2011, 01:57:46 AM »
I agree Lumen. I would love to know how this one works. I wonder if it would output more power if heated?
I wonder if the power increases from larger electrode area, or larger surface contact of the two liquids or if it's related to liquid volume. Something should increase the charge.
Maybe heat increases the charge rate.



Offline shylo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2011, 02:41:34 AM »
I beleive that heat is the key,but not neccesarly in that it can be used for gain,if we could send all generated heat to a specific location,capture it, turn it into something usefull, dissipate it I believe this is where the answer lies....heat, vibration,pressure and oasicilation,..they all seem to be the same thing........shylo

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2011, 02:41:34 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline exnihiloest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2011, 08:52:03 AM »
Quote
Hi ex.,that tiny url wouldn't load it said there was some kind of error,thanx anyways.
...

Please try again. Perhaps a network or server problem at free.fr.
http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Experiences/Piles/
(File: N Vasilesco-Karpen - Pile permanente - FR577087A en.pdf)



Offline exnihiloest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2011, 08:55:02 AM »
I beleive that heat is the key,but not neccesarly in that it can be used for gain,if we could send all generated heat to a specific location,capture it, turn it into something usefull, dissipate it I believe this is where the answer lies....heat, vibration,pressure and oasicilation,..they all seem to be the same thing........shylo

The heat is necessary when there is no chemical reactions, as it is the only possible source of energy.
Here we have redox potentials but without possibility of chemical reactions. Therefore this prevents a current to flow when we loop the external circuit at the electrodes. Nevertheless there is still a transition time during which current flows until the equalization of the potentials at the electrodes (then the cell is depolarized). This process is supposed to be endothermic and when we break the circuit, the environment heat allows for the re-polarization of the cell by a reverse process. It is what I understand from Karpen's patent and other papers.




Offline exnihiloest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2011, 05:00:21 PM »

I tested cells with different metals in a saturated solution of sodium hydroxide. The metals were chosen so that they don't react with NaOH.
The potentials were between 0.3 and 1.2v. The best result was with a carbon anode and a cathode in a ferromagnetic metal (probably steel or iron) whose the whole surface was coated with an inoxidizable metal. I don't know what is this metal, it has rose and green iridescence -see photo-.

The voltage goes up to 1.2v. When the cell is charged with a 100 ohm resistance, the voltage drops instantly to about 0.8v (= 8 mA, 0.48 mW). Then it slowly drops to 0.21v after 1 mn. If I open the circuit at this moment, the voltage increases. After 1 mn: 0.62v, 3 min: 0.73v, 5 min: 0.80v, 9 mn:0.92v

Apparently there is no chemical reaction, the electrolyte and the electrodes remain clean, nevertheless it can't be formally proved because the involved quantity of electricity is too weak.
The time for the cell to recover its full voltage is very long relatively to the duration of the voltage drop when charged. 

So we can say that Karpen's battery works. All this confirms Karpen's observations, but also his difficulties to prove beyong any doubt it is a Maxwell's demon. To prove it definitely, we need temperature measurement (which should drop when current is drawn), but the current is too weak to expect for an effect.
 
Now we have to increase the current and to shorten the time for depolarization but I don't know how.



Offline dutchy1966

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2011, 05:57:19 PM »
Now we have to increase the current and to shorten the time for depolarization but I don't know how.

Does it help if you stir it?

Regards Dutchy


Offline yssuraxu_697

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2011, 07:05:18 PM »
Try larger surface area and/or mass and charging a low voltage cap.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual batteries from Vasilescu-Karpen
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2011, 07:05:18 PM »

 

Share this topic to your favourite Social and Bookmark site

Please SHARE this topic at: